jacee Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 I'm very hopeful about this new movement as it seems to arise from people intent on moving forward together, not governments that divide people to sustain their own power. The death of the Israel-Palestine two-state solution brings fresh hope With many Palestinians and Israelis coming round to the idea of a bi-national state,it's possible to glimpse a peaceful future… "Everybody knows how this will end. There will be a bi-national [state]," he clarified on Israeli TV –is shared by others once supportive of the Oslo framework but now calling time on it. "I do not give up on the two-state solution on ideological grounds," wrote Haaretz columnist Carlo Strenger last month. "I give up on it because it will not happen." ... Among Palestinians, support for a one-state approach is also growing. A poll last month showed that support for a one-state formulation premised on equal rights has inched up among both Palestinians and Israelis. ... . Now a new generation of Palestinian activists,in part inspired by the Arab uprisings in the region, are bypassing territorial demands to focus on civil rights and freedoms. In Israel,there are green shoots of debate around practical questions of how to share the space between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. ... Already, Israeli intellectuals are working out the idea that Jewish claims to the region –currently enforced with guns and walls –would need instead to be enshrined by law,alongside equally guaranteed Palestinian protections. ... Countering a common criticism of one-state proposals,these emerging formulations don't insist that Palestinians and Israelis give up outdated attachments to nationalism –which is helpful,because it seems that neither side wants to,yet. A small group of Palestinians,Israelis and Jewish settlers,Eretz Yoshveyha –"land of its inhabitants" –set out "principles for a single spatial polity" last year, among them safeguarding the collective rights of the two nations. One settler tells me of a consensus emerging within nascent, one-state settler groups that,while national identity may be important,exclusive Jewish sovereignty is not. Dare we hope ... ? Clearly pounding each other isn't a solution and people need to give their governments new directions ... or get new governments. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) There's no freaking way a bi-national 1-state solution will work. No way, 100% chance of failure. If Quebec and the rest of Canada can barely get along, have so much animosity for each other, and have been teetering back and forth on separation for so long, imagine how the Israel/Palestine region would function as a single state? Everyone knows what would happen: Israel would use its superior power to politically dominate the Palestinians within this "unified" state, and the Palestinian would rebel against it, causing riots, protests, and a breakup of this state. edited: for spelling Edited November 18, 2012 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
dre Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 There's no freaking way a bi-national 1-state solution will work. No way, 100% chance of failure. If Quebec and the rest of Canada can barely get along, have so much animosity for each other, and have been teetering back and forth on separate for so long, imagine how the Israel/Palestine region would function as a single state? Everyone knows what would happen: Israel would use its superior power to politically dominate the Palestinians within this "unified" state, and the Palestinian would rebel against it, causing riots, protests, and a breakup of this state. Theres also no chance that Israel will allow it OR a two state solution for that matter. They still believe they can permanently keep ALL of the usefull parts of the occupied territories without assimilating the population, and as long as they believe that you will continue to see the status quo. Isreal has nearly tripled in size using the arabs and their idiotic and ineffectual aggression as the justification. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Merlin Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) So Hamas attacks Israel and as a reward gets Palestine declared a State? What message does this send to the world? Israel held off attacking Gaza for a long time. Israel's PM isn't the problem, Hamas is which the left of this country is supporting for some reason. Edited November 18, 2012 by Merlin Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Theres also no chance that Israel will allow it OR a two state solution for that matter. They still believe they can permanently keep ALL of the usefull parts of the occupied territories without assimilating the population, and as long as they believe that you will continue to see the status quo. Isreal has nearly tripled in size using the arabs and their idiotic and ineffectual aggression as the justification. Pretty much yes I agree. A bi-national state would be a major loss for Israel, they are making gains in territory continually. And why would Israel ever want a bi-national state when their goal has always been a sovereign national Jewish state in their homeland? Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Guest American Woman Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 ... why would Israel ever want a bi-national state when their goal has always been a sovereign national Jewish state in their homeland? This says it all. It would defeat the purpose, surrounded by Muslim states such as it is. Quote
Merlin Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 This says it all. It would defeat the purpose, surrounded by Muslim states such as it is. Lots of places for Arabs to live but only one for Jews to live. The Arabs can go and live somewhere else, many Arab countries to choose from. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Lots of places for Arabs to live but only one for Jews to live. The Arabs can go and live somewhere else, many Arab countries to choose from. Just to be clear, I believe that Palestine has a right to exist as a state, too. I just don't see Israel and Palestine existing as one state. It would make no sense, really. Quote
Merlin Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 But Gaza Strip is too small. Israel might as well just make it part of Israel and let the Arabs live in West Bank only. What's the point of having Gaza Strip unattached to West Bank? The people who live there would be better off if Israel controlled it. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) Arrogance, bigotry and naivety in 50 words or less. And... GO! But Gaza Strip is too small. Israel might as well just make it part of Israel and let the Arabs live in West Bank only. What's the point of having Gaza Strip unattached to West Bank? The people who live there would be better off if Israel controlled it. No way, 100% chance of failure. Agreed. Edited November 18, 2012 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Bonam Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 But Gaza Strip is too small. Israel might as well just make it part of Israel and let the Arabs live in West Bank only. What's the point of having Gaza Strip unattached to West Bank? The people who live there would be better off if Israel controlled it. Perhaps, perhaps not, but even if that statement was true, Israel would not be better off controlling the Gaza strip. Israel does not need an extra half million angry Arabs. Quote
Merlin Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Arrogance, bigotry and naivety in 50 words or less. Brought to you by the resident magician. The people of the West Bank are starving to death and are having sub par healthcare. They would be better off as being a part of Israel and under Israels healthcare and social service system. But for that to happen the people of West bank have to say no to terror(Hamas) and right now terror is winning. Quote
Merlin Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Perhaps, perhaps not, but even if that statement was true, Israel would not be better off controlling the Gaza strip. Israel does not need an extra half million angry Arabs. You may be correct I was looking at it only from the humanitarian pov. It's really sad that the poor people in West bank are giving in to hate and terror. They can never get ahead with Hamas. Quote
Bonam Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 The people of the West Bank are starving to death and are having sub par healthcare. No, the people of the West Bank are not starving to death. As for sub par healthcare, international critics say the same about the US. They would be better off as being a part of Israel and under Israels healthcare and social service system. And what benefit would that bring to Israel? Use your head. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 The people of the West Bank are starving to death and are having sub par healthcare. They would be better off as being a part of Israel and under Israels healthcare and social service system. But for that to happen the people of West bank have to say no to terror(Hamas) and right now terror is winning. Why are the people of West Bank starving to death (they're not really) and are having sub par healthcare? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Merlin Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Why are the people of West Bank starving to death (they're not really) and are having sub par healthcare? Because they side with a terrorist org called Hamas. Hamas calls for Israels destruction so, understandably Israel will not help them. Why should they help the very people who don't your country to exist. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 It's like trying to compare animals in two different habitats. One is is a large habitat with freedom of movement while the other is a tiny, closed off zoo where everything is controlled by the outside force. Where the animals have no sense of freedom and they're abused and punished for not accepting the unnatural conditions they have been forced to live in. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Bonam Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 It's like trying to compare animals in two different habitats. One is is a large habitat with freedom of movement while the other is a tiny, closed off zoo where everything is controlled by the outside force. Where the animals have no sense of freedom and they're abused and punished for not accepting the unnatural conditions they have been forced to live in. Except that the Palestinians are people, and as such should be expected to act rationally in their own self-interest, rather than raging mindlessly like animals. One would think that after 55 years they would have realized that the way they're acting is not in their own self-interest, but apparently not. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Because they side with a terrorist org called Hamas. Hamas calls for Israels destruction so, understandably Israel will not help them. Why should they help the very people who don't your country to exist. The people of West Bank may support defending themselves against an occupying force, but they don't really support Hamas. The people of West Bank or Gaza are not looking for help from Israel. They want Israel to leave them alone by leaving their land, stop annexing more of their land and allowing them to take over their own functions, like any person who wants freedom. They want to be controlling their own resources, trading with other countries and allowing a system to evolve organically. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Bonam Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) The people of West Bank may support defending themselves against an occupying force, but they don't really support Hamas. The people of West Bank or Gaza are not looking for help from Israel. And yet people like you spam criticism when Israel cuts off the flow of help such as fuel supplies, medical supplies, etc. Get your talking points straight. Edited November 18, 2012 by Bonam Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Except that the Palestinians are people, and as such should be expected to act rationally in their own self-interest, rather than raging mindlessly like animals. One would think that after 55 years they would have realized that the way they're acting is not in their own self-interest, but apparently not. Tell me how people in the West Bank are "raging mindlessly like animals". Where are the rocket attacks from West Bank? Where are the suicide bombers? The Palestinian authority has formally accepted the State of Israel and has even accepted to do land swaps. So tell me, why is Israel still controlling the West Bank's borders, trading, taxes, resources and why are they continuing to increase the settlements on Palestinian land? Why has the Likud party vowed to never allow a Palestinian State? Have you ever tried to challenge the narrative that is repeated to you and wonder why the status quo just doesn't make sense anymore? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Hudson Jones Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 And yet people like you spam criticism when Israel cuts off the flow of help such as fuel supplies, medical supplies, etc. Get your talking points straight. Of course I criticize cutting off flow of fuel supplies and medical supplies. They're not coming from Israel. They're coming from other parts of the world. I criticize Israel for getting in the way and damaging and punishing the Palestinians even more. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Bonam Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Of course I criticize cutting off flow of fuel supplies and medical supplies. They're not coming from Israel. Except of course that they are. Quote
Bonam Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Tell me how people in the West Bank are "raging mindlessly like animals". You're the one who made the comparison to animals. Where are the rocket attacks from West Bank? Where are the suicide bombers? The Palestinian authority has formally accepted the State of Israel and has even accepted to do land swaps. Good, and as soon as the PA also has the authority to actually speak on behalf of the Palestinian people, rather than just 1 out of their 2 territories, then what they say might carry some meaning. So tell me, why is Israel still controlling the West Bank's borders, trading, taxes, resources Because as long as they have to maintain a costly military occupation in the territory to ensure security, they may as well use the resources available. and why are they continuing to increase the settlements on Palestinian land? Because there are a few crazy settlers who want to do so and Israel's PR politics grants fringe parties undue influence. Quote
TimG Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) Where are the rocket attacks from West Bank? Where are the suicide bombers? The Palestinian authority has formally accepted the State of Israel and has even accepted to do land swaps.You mean these suicide bombers: http://www.telegraph...ills-three.htmlA suicide bomber blew himself up at an Israeli army checkpoint in the West Bank yesterday. The attack, which killed two fellow Palestinians and an Israeli soldier, underlined the deteriorating security situation in the region. Edited November 18, 2012 by TimG Quote
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