Where would you cut the Ontario Budget?

[TheNewTeddy]

I've heard many people propose cuts to the Ontario budget, but I'm wondering if they can show how this would work with the numbers.

Lets begin here. In another thread someone suggested cutting welfare (Ontario Works)

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/MCSS_718.html

Ontario Works costs 2.5 billion. Even reducing it to 0 saves only 2.5 billion.

One of my own proposals is to cut wages but

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/Table_3.html

Wages and benefits etc only make up 8.5 billion.

Some of the largest items

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/MOHLTC_750.html

OHIP at 17 billion.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/EDU_726.html

Elementary and High schools, at 23 billion

And... uh

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/MOHLTC_893.html

This. The single largest expense from the Government... whatever the hell it is. Also at 23 billion (10M more than edu)

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/Table_10.html

This is a good place to start.

Expenditures are 130B and we have a 15B deficit, so Revenues are 115B

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/estimates/2012-13/volume1/

Main index

Note too our total debt

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/paccts/2012/12_cfs.html#netdebt

is 235.5 Billion.

Revenue is an idea.

Sadly the info is limited

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2012/ch2g.html#c2_secG_table27

Income taxes will bring in about 26B

Sales taxes, 21B

Corporate taxes, 11B

Employer + Employee health tax 8B

Property Taxes (Edu) 6B

The feds send us back about $16B

We get 3B in Equalization

(Despite this about we STILL send about 15B more to the feds than we get in return)

It's hard to figure out what adjustments would do.

Doubling the health tax (for employers and employees) would make the health premiums cover OHIP.

Our Sales Tax rate is 8%. Meaning an increase or decrease of 1% would make about a 2.5B impact.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2012/ch2g.html#c2_secG_chart26

Scroll up to the table above.

Prior to the "Great Recession" our debt was under 160B, now it is 260B at the end of this fiscal year. This is almost a 2/3rds increase.

So there you have it. How would you balance the budget?

[TheNewTeddy]

...The more I read about these health things

http://www.lhins.on.ca/

The more I'm convinced we could balance the budget by throwing it in the trash bin.

[Signals.Cpl]

Go through each and every department's budget in great detail and make sure that every penny spent could be justified, whatever money cannot be justified is cut from their budget.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Raise Taxes (Add PST to items under 4.00)... hope government uses money wisely to actually pay off debt (lol)

Education - Streamline wages to have a lower peak but, higher starting wage.

Health - Fee for non-emergency use of emergency clinics and hospital.

Cut subsidies/tax breaks to healthy industries.

[TheNewTeddy]

There are a few specific people I'd like to see respond to this thread. I'll be PMing them if they do not respond themselves

[Guest Peeves]

Go through each and every department's budget in great detail and make sure that every penny spent could be justified, whatever money cannot be justified is cut from their budget.

Good start.

Public sector and gov. agencies...

I'd cut every dept. staffing by 20%

I'd cut every budget by 10%.

I'd have every expense account checked by an auditor. that would sign off on it.

Then I'd get tough on every day items like coffee breaks and personal time.

I'd certainly look for a good example of abuse in costing, one I could fire someone for. (Don't care if it's grieved or not, makes a point), fire someone gets the attention of others.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Peeves

[Argus]

Here's your answer.

http://www.nugget.ca/2012/02/15/drummond-report-deep-cuts-recommended-for-ont-budget

[Topaz]

Yes, Ontario has to do more but remember, times are tougher than when Harris was in power and then are more homeless and unemployed now and there are more part time jobs over full time and middle and low incomers are struggling just to have the basics in life. We must also realize when we cut back on jobs we are affecting people's lives and some could ended worse off. We have to come up with something to take over or help out the manufacturing sector because that's were many jobs were lost. The govt would have to put a freeze on wages for a period of time but when Dalton did that look what happened. Perhaps if our leaders did more on what is good for the province or country and not about who gets the credit, we would have better a better life.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I have a solution to unemployment. Ship them to Alberta. Problem solved. AMIRITE?

[Shady]

Here's your answer.

http://www.nugget.ca...-for-ont-budget

Pretty much. The sad part of it is, that if after the Liberals took over from the Harris government, if they just would have only increased spending a little bit every year, instead of the 7% increases every year, the cuts would only have to be small to modest at the very worst.

[Shady]

Yes, Ontario has to do more but remember, times are tougher than when Harris was in power

Perhaps a little tougher, but the budget situation Harris inherited from the diaster of a Premier Rae was pretty bad. Anyways, nobody told the Liberals they should increase spending by an average of 7% every year since 2003. Anyone with a brain knows that eventually that kind of recklessness catches up with you.

[jacee]

Good start.

Public sector and gov. agencies...

I'd cut every dept. staffing by 20%

I'd cut every budget by 10%.

I'd have every expense account checked by an auditor. that would sign off on it.

Then I'd get tough on every day items like coffee breaks and personal time.

I'd certainly look for a good example of abuse in costing, one I could fire someone for. (Don't care if it's grieved or not, makes a point), fire someone gets the attention of others.

Oh ya that'll do it ... those coffee breaks ... why didn't someone think of that!

We wouldn't have all this debt!

Here's a thought:

** End direct business subsidies;

http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/199750/debt+capital+markets/Business+Subsidies+In+Ontario+An+Overview

Milke points out that the multi-billion-dollar handouts to business have an opportunity cost: other more desirable policies are ignored or not enacted because the money is spent on business subsidies. For example, he calculates that money spent on corporate welfare could have been used to almost eliminate the Ontario Health Premium, estimated to have cost taxpayers $3.1 billion in 2011/12. Other options include reducing personal income taxes, reducing business taxes, or reducing Ontario’s annual deficit by $2.7 billion.

“In light of the Occupy protests that sprang up this fall and the concerns over perceived favours to individual corporations, Ontario politicians should rethink their propensity to spend millions of tax dollars on corporate bailouts and risky business ventures."

...

Even though research does not support claims that corporate welfare contributes to widespread economic growth, governments continue to pursue these policies because they want to be seen to be doing something,” Milke said.

“By subsidizing or bailing out failing or risky business ventures, politicians can tell voters they are saving jobs, or they can appeal to voters with interests in specific industries.”

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=2147483989

. With direct subsidies, ministers can hand out giant cheques to fledgling factories and stage photo-ops at tech startups — something that is not possible with across-the-board tax cuts.

“It’s not economically smart, but it comes across as politically smart,” Mr. Milke said. As opposition leader in 2004, Stephen Harper implored the Liberals to “get out of the grants and subsidies game.” As Prime Minister, Mr. Harper can now be seen behind podiums handing out his own fair share of incentives and subsidies.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/08/corporate-welfare-costs-ontario-3-billion-a-year-report

There's a pretty clear suggestion that business subsidies are being used politically ... az payoffs for votes/political donations/party support.

A $3b corruption fund.

Get rid of it.

Edited October 21, 2012 by jacee

[TheNewTeddy]

I'd cut every budget by 10%.

No offence, but this is not only a stupid idea but it is very harmful. Some departments can easily absorb a 20% cut while others would break down with even a 1% cut.

As well, on staffing, the government pays far less than even I thought on staffing. Not saying we should not cut, just saying it wont save as much as you or I may have originally thought.

[TheNewTeddy]

http://www.nugget.ca/2012/02/15/drummond-report-deep-cuts-recommended-for-ont-budget

These are some good ideas. The ones I oppose:

** Limit growth in social program spending to 0.5%.

Long term this is a stupid idea. Inflation is closer to 2%. This would mean that over a decade, welfare (for example) would be only 86% of what it is now. In effect, you are cutting help to the most needy. Bad idea.

Everything else seems fine.

I'd also allow OHIP to increase as needed, but strictly freeze LHIN budgets until they can prove how useful they are. I'd also raise the health taxes to meet OHIP costs and reduce income taxes to just about match. We deserve to know exactly how much our healthcare is costing us.

I also back all of these ideas

Raise Taxes (Add PST to items under 4.00)... hope government uses money wisely to actually pay off debt (lol)

Education - Streamline wages to have a lower peak but, higher starting wage.

Health - Fee for non-emergency use of emergency clinics and hospital.

Cut subsidies/tax breaks to healthy industries.

[jacee]

Go through each and every department's budget in great detail and make sure that every penny spent could be justified, whatever money cannot be justified is cut from their budget.

I assume you're talking about someone other than the managers who do their budgets?

Who has the knowledge to make those decisions?

How many people will it take?

How is that process funded?

Is it cost effective?

Is it even possible?

Sometimes you and peeves have grandiose ideas that have no practical value.

[Fletch 27]

Cut the all day day-care... totally eliminate it.... It's simply bad parenting and the teachers unions that brought this into effect

Eliminate Dalton green energy reform..... It's simply subsidizing to appease the left. It hurts ontarians

Cut teacher wages.. They are out of line with the rest of canada

[madmax]

Go through each and every department's budget in great detail and make sure that every penny spent could be justified, whatever money cannot be justified is cut from their budget.

Just as we have discovered Federally by the Conservatives .... the Auditor General gets stonewalled.

On top of that many of the largest Private Sector Service Providers have contracts that prevent the government from looking at their books.

Can you find the waste in a P3 Hospital, or with the American Firm Servco?

THis Private firm basically runs all government services.

Pay them a fee and close your eyes.

[Sir Bandelot]

There's always gonna be some waste, no matter what. And we're at the point now where we've already made a lot of cutbacks. Further cuts will only cause undue suffering. There's really not a lot of "fat" left to be trimmed from the system. Cuts are no longer the answer, lest we enter into the absurd situation where we as taxpayers are shelling out more than we take home, and get no services for it. Further cuts, those of any real substance (not... coffee breaks and daycare) will only go to the bone.

Our economic "system" has a terminal illness. Some say it's already dead but we refuse to acknowledge it, and try to revive the corpse by dumping vast sums of emergency funding to business and banks deemed to important to fail. We took the public money and gave it to private businesses. And now you people come back looking for billions in cuts... realizing the rescue efforts have failed, economy is dead. The soviet union collapsed and reformed itself, but the same disease is within us.

[Guest Peeves]

"There's really not a lot of "fat" left to be trimmed from the system."

OK then all i'm hearing to the contrary is bubba meisa? Bull puckey. There isn't any government that couldn't cut staffing by 10% in a N.Y. minute. Too many doing too little and not doing it well.

[Signals.Cpl]

Just as we have discovered Federally by the Conservatives .... the Auditor General gets stonewalled.

I don't think we need to use the federal government as an example why it could not work, instead we should find a solution to make it work.

On top of that many of the largest Private Sector Service Providers have contracts that prevent the government from looking at their books.

End this practice, if someone is getting public fund then they will open their books.

Can you find the waste in a P3 Hospital, or with the American Firm Servco?

No, but why would I need to? I'm sure there are enough qualified people who can do so without needing my assistance.

THis Private firm basically runs all government services.

And as such is dependant on public funds, no open books = no extension of contracts and we will find other ways to do business.

Pay them a fee and close your eyes.

I don't agree with that view point, if someone wants government contracts then they need to be open and transparent to the people who provide the funds.

[Signals.Cpl]

I assume you're talking about someone other than the managers who do their budgets?

Who has the knowledge to make those decisions?

How many people will it take?

How is that process funded?

Is it cost effective?

Is it even possible?

Sometimes you and peeves have grandiose ideas that have no practical value.

And what do you bring to the table? Increase in corporate taxes will make Canada a utopia... right?

An outside third party reviewing the funding can find waste, obviously hiring someone who is unqualified for the job at hand is counter productive just like letting the department heads do the review.

It will take as many people as necessary.

And it will be funded by the government, this is a long term investment and the return on investment could potentially solve the financial problems of the province, start from the biggest department and go down the list.

And it is possible, tell the departments that they are to open their books and that means all the relevant information and provide the auditors with any and all assistance they require in order to find the waste and cut it out. Increasing corporate taxes is not the answer to every financial problem and it seems to me that you would like to tax corporations as much as possible thinking that they need to be in Canada, they strive for profit and with that in mind increasing taxes while things are already stacked against us as it is might not be exactly the smartest move... but that does not concern you right? I mean the evil corporations have to work for free in order for Canada to be a utopia.

[PIK]

My father who just passed away had assited living helping us out, a hosptial program ,not goverment. Well they left behind some supplies, boxes of them, to do with cathedars (sp) all in protective packaging, still in the boxes. We were told to just get rid of it. Where one of the nurses told me ,that they have to fight to get the stuff, but yet told to dump it all. Mulitply that by the 1000's recieving this stuff, and we have alot of wasted product going to the dumps.

[Topaz]

I went searchnig for the Drummond's list of what Ontario should do and here's the report. I'm not sure Ontarians are ready to do ALL of them but we are going to do something like this. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tag/drummond-report-cuts

[Boges]

I went searchnig for the Drummond's list of what Ontario should do and here's the report. I'm not sure Ontarians are ready to do ALL of them but we are going to do something like this. http://www.huffingto...ond-report-cuts

Except for a provision on Slot Machines at Racetracks (which would actually lose the government money and is why they're kind of backtracking on it) this government pretty much ignored the Drummond report.

McGuinty has increased spending exponentially in his term. There are civil servants than certainly don't need to be employed by the government. (many in middle management) Some people need to get laid off.

[Topaz]

Well, I don't know who the next government is going to be but Hudak said he admired Harris for everything he did and since Ontario needs changes, we kinda know what's coming under Hudak, unless voters put in a minority.