McGuinty Resigns as Premier of Ontario

[Michael Hardner]

There is a lot of truth behind the warnings coming from those like Glenn Beck, and to a lesser extent, those like Alex Jones and Jesse "FEMA camps are being built to imprison us all for future slave labour" Ventura. There is a growing centralisation of control over both the economic and social spehres of our lives being placed into the hands of government. We see it domestically, and we see it supranationally (the UN and the EU being the best examples). There is an erosion of sovereignty that occasionally occurs via treaties, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. This is not all whacked out "conspiracy theory" type stuff, Of course leftists like you either don't see it or actively support it.

Yeah but seeing as how corporations and the 1% continue to be the prime beneficiaries of these changes - 'leftists' really wouldn't support it. We're already agreeing on this thread that this paranoia is bipartisan so let's not move backwards maybe ...

[Michael Hardner]

But having said what I have here about them, the conspiracy theorists are not exactly necessary. With work and diligence, a person can perform institutional critiques of Power without screeching about Bush destroying the WTC, or about rich liberals trying to control us through lax abortion laws.

Yes, this is the other aspect of these things that I personally don't like. We're living in an era of unparalleled freedom - including economic freedom. Yes, there are prisons for suspected terrorists and no-fly lists and frisking at airport but those who hold those examples up as evidence have no sense of proportion.

[kraychik]

Yeah but seeing as how corporations and the 1% continue to be the prime beneficiaries of these changes - 'leftists' really wouldn't support it. We're already agreeing on this thread that this paranoia is bipartisan so let's not move backwards maybe ...

Really? "The 1%"? You've adopted OWS lingo, congratulations. You're also making the flawed assumption that all people are informed and understand the consequences of the policies they support. You are a perfect example of how very often that isn't the case, as you support greater centralisation of control by subscribing the mythology that greater prosperity is developed via governmental direction of the economy.

[kraychik]

Yes, this is the other aspect of these things that I personally don't like. We're living in an era of unparalleled freedom - including economic freedom. Yes, there are prisons for suspected terrorists and no-fly lists and frisking at airport but those who hold those examples up as evidence have no sense of proportion.

Economic freedom has been reduced in Canada and the USA over the past half century, we are hardly enjoying unparalleled economic freedom today in the context of modern history.

[scribblet]

http://www.ottawacit...9741/story.html

“We’re reaping the fruits of Michaëlle Jean’s prorogation,” said Norman Spector, Brian Mulroney’s former chief of staff, on Tuesday.

Not so, prorogation is a tool used many times in parliament, in fact, around 120 times at least, Harper's was no precedent at all. McGuinty has set a precedent by not not giving an end date.

I'm pretty sure Chretien had the longest prorogue period, but McGuinty's could beat that one. Not too many screaming about it this time, no facebook pages protesting, no screams of outrage etc. etc. even the media is holding back. Why didn't the LG say no to this one, has GG or LG said NO, ever ?

http://www.parl.gc.c...Sec=Ch25&Seq=12

Edited October 18, 2012 by scribblet

[g_bambino]

[T]his article, from back when the Harper prorogation was occurring. Spector opposed it then.

I don't see where in that article he expresses disapproval.

Regardless, I disagree with Spector's assessment as quoted in the Ottawa Citizen piece. He rightly alludes to the fact that the government must be accountable to the elected chamber of parliament. However, in stating that the viceroy should reject a premier's advice when that advice is apparently for the prime minister's own political gain, he ignores another core constitutional rule: the Crown must almost always follow the advice of the Cabinet that holds the confidence of the House of Commons; only in certain circumstances can the contrary be done. For Jean (and Onley) to have rejected the prime minister's advice to prorogue would have meant the governor had, in effect, unilaterally dismissed the Cabinet; by doing so, she would have said "I no longer trust you as my advisors and will take matters into my own hands", all based on what really would still be just an assumption of Harper's motives. If the prime minister were acting unconstitutionally or giving illegal advice, then his dismissal by the governor and the installation of a new government would be called for (of course, in consultation with other governing and opposition party leaders and likely as a temporary measure until an election was held). Otherwise, it would be the cause of a constitutional crisis. As the same article says Bliss said: the Lieutenant Governor had "no choice but to say yes to the premier because his request was entirely legal."

Spector further forgets that, by requiring that the legislature be reconvened within a reasonable amount of time (it was shut for, I believe, only a week longer than it would have been for Christmas break, anyway), there was an assurance that the government would eventually, in the not very distant future, face the opposition and a vote on the budget, which is simultaneously a vote of confidence. That's partly repeated itself in Ontario; the minority government will eventually have to face the legislature; it's up to the opposition to remember the government's actions until parliament is recalled. It's just, this time, so far, we don't know how long the prorogation has been set to last; a recall date isn't required, according to Ontario regulations.

[ed.: +]

Edited October 18, 2012 by g_bambino

[kraychik]

G_bambino, my mistake, I linked the wrong article. Here Norman Spector expressed his disapproval of the Harper prorogation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/prorogation-jean-chrtien-did-it-too/article794712/

Also here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/harper-plays-the-prorogation-card/article794572/

He also made a recent comment on Twitter in which he implied that the Harper prorogation sort of set the stage for McGuinty's prorogation.

[g_bambino]

Norman Spector expressed his disapproval of the Harper prorogation:

He also made a recent comment on Twitter in which he implied that the Harper prorogation sort of set the stage for McGuinty's prorogation.

I still disagree with him for all the same aforementioned reasons.

[Fletch 27]

Norman Specter is a side-show... You dont recall him exposing the benefits of Tobacco in 1995? And then the following year, taking that high paying job in Corp relations for "Imperial Tobacco???

Isnt this the same guy that called Belind Stronach a "bitch" because she refused to be interviewed by him?

"He commented on Twitter"??? Are you for real?? What did "drake" say today on this? Im sure we are all aware that Twittering "makes it so".,.

G_bambino, my mistake, I linked the wrong article. Here Norman Spector expressed his disapproval of the Harper prorogation:

http://www.theglobea.../article794712/

Also here:

http://www.theglobea.../article794572/

He also made a recent comment on Twitter in which he implied that the Harper prorogation sort of set the stage for McGuinty's prorogation.

[Michael Hardner]

Really? "The 1%"? You've adopted OWS lingo, congratulations. You're also making the flawed assumption that all people are informed and understand the consequences of the policies they support. You are a perfect example of how very often that isn't the case, as you support greater centralisation of control by subscribing the mythology that greater prosperity is developed via governmental direction of the economy.

Yes, I intentionally used that language. Anyway, let's leave me out of this for the moment. Don't a lot of New World Order cringers attribute the CIA, Bildenberg, the Bushes etc, 9/11 as part of all of this ?

added this

Economic freedom has been reduced in Canada and the USA over the past half century, we are hardly enjoying unparalleled economic freedom today in the context of modern history.

Since Reagan ? But, but ... we have had greater prosperity and lower taxes for the wealthiest Americans ... how is that possible ?

[jbg]

They're only symbolic heads of state. If they can use their discretion on matters of governing, then what's to stop the Queen from doing the same thing?

That has happened in a limited sense a few times in Australia. The most recent was where the GG turfed the PM, Gough Whitlam, in 1975 and appointed the opposition leader as caretaker PM until the election (which he called).

[Topaz]

I heard one reason for Dalton closing down shop was that at least 5 or more were going to run for leadership and there would be enough on the government side to carry on. All I know is Ontario is in a real mess and there's muncipalities in trouble and whoever is the next Premier better know what they are doing. They have to increase full-time jobs, so they can increase revenues and I bet Ontario has more unemployed than any other province.

[Argus]

I didn't think conservatives generally bought into this nonsense. Now I know better.

Oh please. I don't know what you'd describe MC as but conservative is not the term I'd use.

[Argus]

Sun News. News for idiots. Comedy for sane people.

Is the Trillium comparison really necessary?

Employment is related to boom/bust, not political figure.

Surplus is debateable. They were fudging the numbers and left a 5 Billion dollar deficit after Eves.

Have and Have Not, we'd still be a have not province with a high dollar.

The official deficit, and that's after the Liberals threw everything into the budget but the kitchen sink, was $4 billion. They increased taxes by more than that in their first year yet the deficit went higher. It went higher every year, as spending continued to rise BEFORE the recession. McGuinty increased spending by 50% in real terms. His stupid ideological screwing around with electricity also doubled electricity rates. We might have a high dollar, but with lower electricity rates and lower taxes (because we'd be spending a lot less) we might have saved more jobs, esp in manufacturing.

[scribblet]

I heard one reason for Dalton closing down shop was that at least 5 or more were going to run for leadership and there would be enough on the government side to carry on. All I know is Ontario is in a real mess and there's muncipalities in trouble and whoever is the next Premier better know what they are doing. They have to increase full-time jobs, so they can increase revenues and I bet Ontario has more unemployed than any other province.

So how does a gov't increase full time jobs ?

[login]

It is very safe to say that Mr. McGuinty at the least feels no regret that the prorogation has aborted a potential contempt proceeding against two of his cabinet ministers. -http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/mcguinty-should-reverse-prorogation-action/article4619905/?cmpid=rss1

[bleeding heart]

Oh please. I don't know what you'd describe MC as but conservative is not the term I'd use.

Arch-conservative would be more apt.

[cybercoma]

PM Harper does it and everyone goes crazy and calls for everything but a public hanging. Dalton does it and no one cares because he's a Liberal and he can do what he wants. Hypocrisy.

No one cares? Really? I think I made it abundantly clear above that I care.

Secondly, this is an issue for Ontario only. Less media coverage and outcry is a result of it not being a national issue.

[cybercoma]

If PM Harper had Prorogued in late 2008 and RESIGNED, you might have a point.

If Dalton had Prorogued and NOT resigned then people would be demanding a pound of flesh.

Right now, it seems teh public is happy he is leaving and accepting proroguing as the price of such a decision.

I am not one of htose who agree with Proroguing.

A good point. What kind of outcry are people expecting? Calls for McGuinty to resign, like there were for Harper?

[cybercoma]

The GG or LG really should have to answer to the head of the government.

They're only symbolic heads of state. If they can use their discretion on matters of governing, then what's to stop the Queen from doing the same thing?

You forgot the constitutional part of constitutional monarchy.

[PIK]

...

Edited October 19, 2012 by PIK

[Wild Bill]

So how does a gov't increase full time jobs ?

Good question, Scribb. Not entirely sure myself but I can see how doubling the cost of electricity to industry can surely KILL jobs!

Perhaps it is up to government to keep costs for business as low and favourable as possible. That would include not just electricity but also taxes, water and a host of nitpicking little costs and user fees.

I watched much of my industry, which was high volume electronic manufacturing, move to not just China but also Ireland, which was a surprise to me at first. Turns out Ireland has MUCH less government red tape for businesss!

I had not thought a lot about that point before but I should have, I guess. Back years ago when Stelco was still a Canadian company I had a friend who was the personal secretary to their head of HR. She told me that Stelco had at least 3 people devoted gathering all the info the government demanded. I had never realized that the data for StatsCan was gathered by business being forced to provide the labour. The bigger the company, the more people who had to be paid to do work that had little or nothing to do with the profitability of said company.

It's just a given that given any choice, enterprise avoids locations of higher cost.

[g_bambino]

No one cares? Really? I think I made it abundantly clear above that I care.

Secondly, this is an issue for Ontario only. Less media coverage and outcry is a result of it not being a national issue.

I think it's rather that not as many people seem to care. Harper's prorogations were portrayed as the end of democracy in Canada, not just by certain journalists, but by thousands of protesters in the streets. There's some well-deserved critique of McGuinty's decision to have a prorogation in the newspapers now; but, the language is more muted. And where're all those "save democracy from evil prorogation" protesters now? There were plenty in Ontario four years ago.

[ed.: sp.]

Edited October 19, 2012 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

You forgot the constitutional part of constitutional monarchy.

That seems to happen a lot.

[scribblet]

I think it's rather that not as many people seem to care. Harper's prorogations were portrayed as the end of democracy in Canada, not just by certain journalists, but by thousands of protesters in the streets. There's some well-deserved critique of McGuinty's decision to have a prorogation in the newspapers now; but, the language is more muted. And where're all those "save democracy from evil prorogation" protesters now? There were plenty in Ontario four years ago.

[ed.: sp.]

Right on !!