Omar is back

[jacee]

[Omar] has also read Ishmael Beah's

'A Long Way Gone', the story of a 13-year-old who was forced into the Sierra Leone army, ordered to kill, but later rehabilitated. "He’s done, like, 10 times worse things than the thing I’m accused of doing," Khadr said. "But he was given a chance in life to prove himself, and I was not."

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/27/the-secret-khadr-file

Edited October 17, 2012 by jacee

[Fletch 27]

Im ok with the Hanging of Omar.. His faith was what transformed him into a killer... Its to late for any assistance from anyone.. He should be hung IMO..

[Bonam]

What more should be done to Omar Khadr, Army Guy?

He should be tried and convicted for High Treason, as per its definition:

(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

• kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
  
• levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
  
• assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.
  

...

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

...

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment.

And should be sentenced to life imprisonment.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Bonam

[Rue]

What more should be done to Omar Khadr, Army Guy?

Deportation to Egypt or Afghanistan.

What you do not seem to get is he and his family continue to denounce all the basic fundamental precepts of democracy

we take for granted as a given in Canada.

Their beliefs are open and blatant. They believe in violence, intolerance and see anyone not their version of a Muslim as an infidel.

On the one hand they piss on this country's basic values and then on the other hand demand welfare and live in comforrt?

No.

Out.

He is unrepetant and violent. He detests anything to do with this country but he is too cowardly to leave its comforts. Time to go.

Let him put his money where his mouth is and travel and live with people who believe just like he does.

Out.

[PIK]

Now that we know that he knew that he was going to be invovled in killing canadians and did not care and that he wanted to go out a martyr. Great interview by ezra with one of the soldiers hurts when omar tried to kill them. We need to retry him ourselves and make a example out of him, to show when canadians go to war against canada, you are going to pay a huge price. To bad we can't hang him.

[Deuce]

Now that we know that he knew that he was going to be invovled in killing canadians and did not care and that he wanted to go out a martyr. Great interview by ezra with one of the soldiers hurts when omar tried to kill them. We need to retry him ourselves and make a example out of him, to show when canadians go to war against canada, you are going to pay a huge price. To bad we can't hang him.

Yikes

[eyeball]

He should be hung IMO..

He should be tried and convicted for High Treason, as per its definition:

And should be sentenced to life imprisonment.

Your mothers should be ashamed of you.

Omar Khadr should be compensated to the tune of millions of dollars, the PM should give him an official apology in Parliament and then the whole rotten lot should all hang their heads in shame too.

[Army Guy]

"What more should be done to Omar Khadr, Army Guy? "

Jacee, I get the fact that alot of Canadians don't support Omar and what he and his family did and are still doing. They support the fact that a Canadian Citizen has been abused by an inter national system, along with our own government taking a small part in that process. for the most part very few give a rats ass what happens to Omar once he is finished with serving his term for crimes he has committed.

And to set the record straight i do not agree with alot of what happened to Omar in regards to his treatment while being held by US forces, and the steps our government took to assist him....

Do i think he has served justice for his crime ...No i do not, I think he should have served his full term of 40 years, or faced other crimes here in Canada, but that won't happen and that is my personal opinion which means jack shit in the grand scheme of things....

I do get that he was 15 years old at the time, i do get that he was carrying out his parents wish and wants, but those things were taken into account during his sentencing ...but when you place all the things that can be proven and all the things that can't and weigh them again'st his age , his parent the scales do not balance... Again my opinon...

I've done 3 Combat tours in Afghan, my opinion is highly slanted for a good reason, i've seen first hand what bombers bring to the table, time and time again....i've also seen what insurgents bring to the table, and in some cases up close and personal, I don't hate them, hate is to strong a word, but i do not like them, or what they do..... I'am a professional soldier who was not suppose to allow my emotions get tied mixed up with the conflict, but i'm human first and fore most, and getting attached to the regular afghan people did not take long, add to all that i watched many of my comrads pay the ultimate price for that assistance....once that bond was forged the bad guys never stood a chance....that bond has been forged with many soldiers...i could never stay neutral, i always stood on one side of the line....always on the opposite side of the insurgents, or the team Omar was on.

As for Omar he will be a rock star for the inter national terrorist comunity , treated like royality. our government will side step the issue in order to not have to deal with it...see bad press is bad for votes...do i think he will be watched like 2 rare birds being filmed by national geographic.... yes i do, until one of those meat heads screws it up again, and omar takes them to court again....I don't have much faith in the system....what i do have faith in is once a bad guy always a bad guy, and the law or a bullet will catch up with him....It's to bad that a price will have to be payed by all, and some more people will have to suffer...

[Army Guy]

Now that we know that he knew that he was going to be invovled in killing canadians and did not care and that he wanted to go out a martyr. Great interview by ezra with one of the soldiers hurts when omar tried to kill them. We need to retry him ourselves and make a example out of him, to show when canadians go to war against canada, you are going to pay a huge price. To bad we can't hang him.

The only way Canadians are going to do anything other than pay Omar out for millions is if Omar shows his true colors, today at age 20 plus years old, and take down Canadians....I mean our government had his father released shortly after he died in a terrorist attack...along with one of his sons becoming crippled....and somehow he became a Canadian tax payer responsablity....i don't know what it would take to see them properly deported.....along with the rest of the know terrorists in Canada ...

[PIK]

The only way Canadians are going to do anything other than pay Omar out for millions is if Omar shows his true colors, today at age 20 plus years old, and take down Canadians....I mean our government had his father released shortly after he died in a terrorist attack...along with one of his sons becoming crippled....and somehow he became a Canadian tax payer responsablity....i don't know what it would take to see them properly deported.....along with the rest of the know terrorists in Canada ...

Yes chretien unleashed these killers on us, and now we know that omar had a chance to leave and come back to canada ,but he chose to stay and fight on. Releasing him will come back to haunts us just like when chetien got his father released.

[jacee]

"What more should be done to Omar Khadr, Army Guy? "

Jacee, I get the fact that alot of Canadians don't support Omar and what he and his family did and are still doing. They support the fact that a Canadian Citizen has been abused by an inter national system, along with our own government taking a small part in that process. for the most part very few give a rats ass what happens to Omar once he is finished with serving his term for crimes he has committed.

And to set the record straight i do not agree with alot of what happened to Omar in regards to his treatment while being held by US forces, and the steps our government took to assist him....

Do i think he has served justice for his crime ...No i do not, I think he should have served his full term of 40 years, or faced other crimes here in Canada, but that won't happen and that is my personal opinion which means jack shit in the grand scheme of things....

I do get that he was 15 years old at the time, i do get that he was carrying out his parents wish and wants, but those things were taken into account during his sentencing ...but when you place all the things that can be proven and all the things that can't and weigh them again'st his age , his parent the scales do not balance... Again my opinon...

I've done 3 Combat tours in Afghan, my opinion is highly slanted for a good reason, i've seen first hand what bombers bring to the table, time and time again....i've also seen what insurgents bring to the table, and in some cases up close and personal, I don't hate them, hate is to strong a word, but i do not like them, or what they do..... I'am a professional soldier who was not suppose to allow my emotions get tied mixed up with the conflict, but i'm human first and fore most, and getting attached to the regular afghan people did not take long, add to all that i watched many of my comrads pay the ultimate price for that assistance....once that bond was forged the bad guys never stood a chance....that bond has been forged with many soldiers...i could never stay neutral, i always stood on one side of the line....always on the opposite side of the insurgents, or the team Omar was on.

As for Omar he will be a rock star for the inter national terrorist comunity , treated like royality. our government will side step the issue in order to not have to deal with it...see bad press is bad for votes...do i think he will be watched like 2 rare birds being filmed by national geographic.... yes i do, until one of those meat heads screws it up again, and omar takes them to court again....I don't have much faith in the system....what i do have faith in is once a bad guy always a bad guy, and the law or a bullet will catch up with him....It's to bad that a price will have to be payed by all, and some more people will have to suffer...

I respect your opinions and your service to the Afghan people and Canada, Army Guy. I understand too, as I've said repeatedly, that in combat it doesn't matter that the person trying to kill you is a kid: They're lethal. I get that.

However, "once a bad guy, always a bad guy" doesn't jive with Canada's committment to rehabilitation of child soldiers. It's the age of recruitment that defines them.

Personally, I think a 40 year sentence on top of 10 in Gitmo would be excessive ... but I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that.

What bothers me is that our government's focus on vilifying Khadr seems to exclude any attempt to deprogram/rehabilitate him.

There should be more going on than him just serving time and then being released into the community and back to his family. I'm willing to admit that we don't know for sure whether he may still be dangerous, and I believe he may well be a target too.

Child soldiers aren't just those kidnapped by some faraway lunatic dictator - eg, Ishmael Bael - but can also be those indoctrinated right under our noses by their own parents.

[Guest American Woman]

[Omar] has also read Ishmael Beah's

'A Long Way Gone', the story of a 13-year-old who was forced into the Sierra Leone army, ordered to kill, but later rehabilitated. "He's done, like, 10 times worse things than the thing I'm accused of doing," Khadr said. "But he was given a chance in life to prove himself, and I was not."

http://www2.macleans...cret-khadr-file

So you are able to read the link. Finally, eh?

Did you read the 63 page report too? Because I have. I've also read "A Long Way Gone," some of which, by the way, is refuted by some of the people in the book. Have you? Because there is absolutely no comparison between Ishmael Beah's circumstances and Omar Khadr's. None at all. Ishmael's parents/family were killed by the rebels, his town was wiped out, he had no home, no way to support himself, and he was in effect kidnapped and forced into military service. He was no 'happy go lucky' Omar Khadr, who defends his dad to the end, comparing bin Laden's training camps to martial arts clubs. But you know that, now that you can read the link, right?

At times, he sounds like the victim he claims to be: a “child” thrust into war, exploited by “everybody” and haunted by nightmares. [...]

Yet during other moments of the interview, Khadr sounds exactly like the man Welner described on the witness stand: unrepentant and unconvincing. He vehemently denies his father’s al-Qaeda connections—“I know my father, and I don’t accept anybody saying that he’s a bad person”—and compares bin Laden’s training camps to mere martial arts clubs. He skirts around certain questions (about 9/11, his siblings, his father’s death) and when shown a home video of himself expertly wiring and planting improvised explosive devices, he can barely watch the footage. “What’s the point?” he asked.

Not once does Khadr accept even a shred of responsibility for his lot, consistently shifting the blame to everyone else. Except, of course, the man who dispatched him into battle. “I think he was just a normal dad,” Khadr said. “He was just trying to raise his children the right way.”

He speaks of how being made to watch the video of him wiring explosives is "torture." He denied any knowledge of how to work with explosives until he was shown the video at which time he could no longer deny it. He never spoke of any torture or abuse - until he was rejected by Canada.

From the report:

Records from his mother's correspondence in 2003 note that the Red Cross had been in touch with his family and reported that he was being well kept.

Only subsequent to Mr. Khadr's rejection by the Canadians did Omar advance the idea, one well-worn among the Al-Qeada community with whom he interacted every day, that he had been tortured into giving his self-incriminating statements.

He readily complains about unfair treatment, confident that there must be some provision of international law that can protect him when America is involved.

I find this interesting, as I agree that it doesn't sound like the behavior of someone who is being tortured :

Despite Mr. Khadr's more recent and resolute assertions that he has been abused continuously until the present day, he acknowledges his own verbal abusiveness to Guantanamo personnel. On one such occasion in March 2005, the defendant reportedly harangued a black female guard as a slave, servant, bitch, and crazy whore.

A person of that temerity not only is not being abused, but fears no repercussions from most of what he does. More importantly, he has the confidence to speak up about anything he perceives to be abusive, whether others agree or not.

We do know that the claims of abuse came at the same time the International Red Cross was telling his family in Canada how well he was being treated.

More on his alleged torture and abuse from the report:

Subsequent to Omar Khadr's decision to retract his confession in February, he advanced a number of assertations of torture, after he asserted that his Canadian visitors were screaming at him. It took only one visit from the screaming Canadians for Mr Khadr to assert he was being tortured.

Asked to detail such torture, he refers me to his affidavit as if he is otherwise unable to recall details.

As I've said before, reading the report has been quite informative.

Edited October 18, 2012 by American Woman

[Army Guy]

I respect your opinions and your service to the Afghan people and Canada, Army Guy. I understand too, as I've said repeatedly, that in combat it doesn't matter that the person trying to kill you is a kid: They're lethal. I get that.

However, "once a bad guy, always a bad guy" doesn't jive with Canada's committment to rehabilitation of child soldiers. It's the age of recruitment that defines them.

Personally, I think a 40 year sentence on top of 10 in Gitmo would be excessive ... but I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that.

What bothers me is that our government's focus on vilifying Khadr seems to exclude any attempt to deprogram/rehabilitate him.

There should be more going on than him just serving time and then being released into the community and back to his family. I'm willing to admit that we don't know for sure whether he may still be dangerous, and I believe he may well be a target too.

Child soldiers aren't just those kidnapped by some faraway lunatic dictator - eg, Ishmael Bael - but can also be those indoctrinated right under our noses by their own parents.

It is not just that they are lethal in combat, It is they're way of life, it surpasses anything cult like, it is who they are, what they are those involved in except their roles willingly without regret, and will give their lives at the mere sugestion of it....they are more committed than anyone in the west, including our soldiers....

Hence the once a bad guy always a bad guy statement, these guys don't change becuase they can't, .....take a look at omar we already know that he has been exposed to this behavior for most of his life....reinforced by his parents and his family, reinforced during his stay in gitmo by fellow prisoners, Do you really think a few shrienks are going to revert all that back in a few years, I don't think so......take a look at his family actions do you think Omar will revet all that teachings , with his family in the back ground screaming they are wrong.....this is his family we are taking about, his sister and mother play a major role in his life i'd say this is going to be a major hit to this shrienk training....Omar is already a rock star in the insurgent world is he going to be willing to dump all this attention..... another hit to the program....how about the way Canadians see him and how they will treat him it's going to play another small role.....I think he will put into the program what he needs to to get that check in the block for release....and may even keep it for a small while after release...but he will revert to what he knows and what he is confortable with....

You said you don't think he will be dangerous, but are you willing to place your life on the line to make that call....

As for the 40 year sentence this was 40 years total....and should be the standard sentence for any terrorist activity my opinion....

[jacee]

It is not just that they are lethal in combat, It is they're way of life, it surpasses anything cult like, it is who they are, what they are those involved in except their roles willingly without regret, and will give their lives at the mere sugestion of it....they are more committed than anyone in the west, including our soldiers....

Hence the once a bad guy always a bad guy statement, these guys don't change becuase they can't, .....take a look at omar we already know that he has been exposed to this behavior for most of his life....reinforced by his parents and his family, reinforced during his stay in gitmo by fellow prisoners, Do you really think a few shrienks are going to revert all that back in a few years, I don't think so......take a look at his family actions do you think Omar will revet all that teachings , with his family in the back ground screaming they are wrong.....this is his family we are taking about, his sister and mother play a major role in his life i'd say this is going to be a major hit to this shrienk training....Omar is already a rock star in the insurgent world is he going to be willing to dump all this attention..... another hit to the program....how about the way Canadians see him and how they will treat him it's going to play another small role.....I think he will put into the program what he needs to to get that check in the block for release....and may even keep it for a small while after release...but he will revert to what he knows and what he is confortable with....

You said you don't think he will be dangerous, but are you willing to place your life on the line to make that call....

As for the 40 year sentence this was 40 years total....and should be the standard sentence for any terrorist activity my opinion....

It's all moot now.

You don't get the 40 year sentence you want and I don't get the deprogramming/rehab that I think is necessary.

And Omar Khadr never got a life of his own.

[Argus]

Your mothers should be ashamed of you.

Omar Khadr should be compensated to the tune of millions of dollars, the PM should give him an official apology in Parliament and then the whole rotten lot should all hang their heads in shame too.

We can make allowances for hsi behaviour and understand the poor childhood upbringing he had.

That does not mean we need to reward it and praise him for being the Islamist he is.

[Argus]

Why is it ok for the US to slaughter civilians wholesale with their drone strikes, but Omar Khadr, the child pawn of al Qaeda, is vilified for setting up landmines in areas heavily patrolled by US troops?

The US doesn't slaughter civilians wholesale with their drone strikes. Even those complaining about them admit the great majority of the 'victims' are terrorists. Most of the civilian victims are those who were in the compound with them. Ie, friends and family.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

Army Guy, I'd still like an answer ... What more do you think should be done to hold 12-15 year old Omar Khadr accountable for his actions?

He was 15 when he commited the act for which he was imprisoned. Not 12. And the question in the minds of many of us is not punishment but the safeguarding of the public. We know what he was turned into by his family, the religious wackos around him, and at gitmo. We can accept that this was a horrible thing to do to a child and that he had no real choice about any of it. He was made what he was: an Islamist filled with the determination and the religious and moral justification to commit violence against westerners.. Do you believe he's somehow changed? Why? What changed him?

[jacee]

He was 15 when he commited the act for which he was imprisoned. Not 12. And the question in the minds of many of us is not punishment but the safeguarding of the public. We know what he was turned into by his family, the religious wackos around him, and at gitmo. We can accept that this was a horrible thing to do to a child and that he had no real choice about any of it. He was made what he was: an Islamist filled with the determination and the religious and moral justification to commit violence against westerners.. Do you believe he's somehow changed? Why? What changed him?

I can't make that call, nor can you or Army Guy or anyone else here.

I think he should be subject to assessment of his state of mind and evaluation of rehabilitation potential and needs. It isn't enough that he just serve his time and be released.

[jacee]

The US doesn't slaughter civilians wholesale with their drone strikes. Even those complaining about them admit the great majority of the 'victims' are terrorists. Most of the civilian victims are those who were in the compound with them. Ie, friends and family.

U.S. study: Drone strikes kill many civilians

[Argus]

U.S. study: Drone strikes kill many civilians

I didn't deny that civilians die. The point is the US is not attacking civilians, and most of those who die are in fact terrorists. It's too bad the terrorists have to be with their faimilies, but them's the breaks. They should have stayed away from their families.

[Fletch 27]

Your mothers should be ashamed of you.

Omar Khadr should be compensated to the tune of millions of dollars, the PM should give him an official apology in Parliament and then the whole rotten lot should all hang their heads in shame too.

YEs, Compensate him for being a convicted terrorist.. Your disdane for Harper should not implicate my tax dollars.. Thank GOD the Canadians citizens who vote more and more for Harper do not find your ideas appealing.

Im sure the NDP would be in FULL agreement with you... Shamefull

[g_bambino]

the PM should give him an official apology in Parliament...

Which prime minister? Chretien? Martin? Harper? Or all three together, like the representatives of the Lollipop Guild?

[Guest American Woman]

I didn't deny that civilians die. The point is the US is not attacking civilians, and most of those who die are in fact terrorists. It's too bad the terrorists have to be with their faimilies, but them's the breaks. They should have stayed away from their families.

Of course the drone strikes don't account for all of the US/coalition activity, either - so it's not representative of the total percentage of civilian/militant/terrorist deaths. Also, it's a matter of opinion if some of the deaths were simply "civilians," making such figures unreliable. I would be curious, also, to know how many more civilians the Taliban/terrorist organizations have killed - uncaring and/or deliberately. I would also hope that in the long run, such organizations will lose their power and their hold over civilians.

I would still like to see a study of whether or not all of the drone strikes are 'necessary' - mainly the secondary strikes, when apparently emergency personnel are going in to assist the wounded and become victims themselves.

[bleeding heart]

Of course the drone strikes don't account for all of the US/coalition activity, either - so it's not representative of the total percentage of civilian/militant/terrorist deaths. Also, it's a matter of opinion if some of the deaths were simply "civilians," making such figures unreliable.

The US government has admitted that some of the deaths are civilians.

[edit] OK, I assume you didn't mean what I thought you meant; you weren't calling the fact of civilian casualties into doubt, but rather expressing that we don't know of all the claimed civilian deaths are accurate.

That's fair enough; but by the same token (exactly the same token), it also remains opinion that all the "terrorist" deaths are in fact of terrorists.

I would be curious, also, to know how many more civilians the Taliban/terrorist organizations have killed - uncaring and/or deliberately.

My understanding is that it's far worse.

It's not quite the proper standard to hold ourselves to, however.

I would also hope that in the long run, such organizations will lose their power and their hold over civilians.

One of the worst aspects of the "war on terror" is the possibility that so much of our behaviour has instigated and precipitated further terrorism, and terrorist recruitment.

At some point, we should wonder how much responsibility for this precipitative behaviour--how much responsibility for terrorism--should be placed on our shoulders.

Edited October 19, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Guest American Woman]

The US government has admitted that some of the deaths are civilians.

[edit] OK, I assume you didn't mean what I thought you meant; you weren't calling the fact of civilian casualties into doubt, but rather expressing that we don't know of all the claimed civilian deaths are accurate.

That's fair enough; but by the same token (exactly the same token), it also remains opinion that all the "terrorist" deaths are in fact of terrorists.

Considering who the people responsible for the investigation/report interviewed, I just don't see much likelihood of them erring in that direction; so while one can't rule out the possibility on a "never say never" basis, it's hardly by "exactly the same token."

My understanding is that it's far worse.

It's not quite the proper standard to hold ourselves to, however.

That's my understanding, too, and the reality from all that I've read and heard - and I hardly mentioned it as a "standard to hold ourselves to."

I brought it up because I think it's important to recognize in light of our goal to render the Taliban/terrorist organizations powerless, and that includes powerless over the citizens who are subjected to their control/violence. In that regard, it makes no sense to me that some only criticize the U.S./coalition and present our actions as nothing other than destructive. Fact is. our actions are not like the Taliban/al Qaeda, who have no motives other than killing innocent civilians who don't support/follow their beliefs, their will. It's not as if our leaving, discontinuing our actions, will prevent the death of innocent civilians - doing so could ultimately result in more civilian deaths, especially in the long run.

It's one thing to believe we shouldn't be there - and then that should be the argument. But to present us as 'like them' is erroneous, and I think those who speak out against our being there need to own up to the very likely reality that the end result would be even more civilian deaths, because if we aren't victorious, that's a given. If we are, there's hope that many lives will be saved as even more lives are spared the violence and restrictions they are now living under.

I get the feeling that many, many of the critical are critical mostly for the sake of being critical of the U.S./coalition, however. The targets of the drone attacks are the likes of the people who shot Malala for standing up for girls'/women's rights, and who continue to threaten her and any others who dare to cross them. Not going after them isn't going to solve the problem of civilian deaths; it will just make the civilians even more vulnerable to a different threat - indefinitely, as it doesn't appear as if the Pakistani government is going to do much of anything to crack down on them.

One of the worst aspects of the "war on terror" is the possibility that so much of our behaviour has instigated and precipitated further terrorism, and terrorist recruitment.

So what do you think is the alternative? Do nothing, and nothing will change? Or perhaps it's a side-effect that those who are prone to side with the terrorists will do just that - and we must deal with that aspect along with the rest. Doing nothing is obviously not going to accomplish anything. I doubt you can argue that.

At some point, we should wonder how much responsibility for this precipitative behaviour--how much responsibility for terrorism--should be placed on our shoulders.

I believe those questions have been - and continue to be - asked. That's a different scenario than just demonizing the U.S./coalition, however, as if there isn't a force that is violent/murderous towards civilians to be reckoned with - and as if our actions, our desires, are no different from theirs.