The Response to Separatism

[TheNewTeddy]

As some of you know (the ones who read my rants) I am a separatist. You might ask "what is a Quebec Separatist doing living in Toronto" and I answer "I'm an Ontario Separatist." You might then ask "So you want Ontario to go but Quebec to stay" and I answer "No, I'm a Quebec Separatist too... and an Alberta Separatist, and a Newfoundland Separatist..."

So I find myself in the very strange position, this Quebec election, cheering for the federalists. You see, while I support Quebec leaving this country, Stephen Harper does not, nor do 304 of our 308 MPs (or so they say) The end result of this is that if the PQ is elected, the feds will try to KEEP Quebec in the country - and this is something I oppose.

Billions will be redirected from Ontario and Alberta to keep Quebec happy. Ontario and Alberta already pay too much into this confederation.

I support Separatism, but I do not support the response to it.

While Quebec decides weather it wants a Lady Seppie, a n00b Idiot, or a Corrupt Luckmagnet as their leader, I'm more curious in debating the response to a PQ victory from the rest of Canada.

...I was planning to write more but my point has gotten across and my keyboard is not co-operating, so, I'll end here.

[bleeding heart]

and I answer "No, I'm a Quebec Separatist too... and an Alberta Separatist, and a Newfoundland Separatist..."

Why?

[TheNewTeddy]

Because Canada is a failure. Compare the wealth of Calgary, AB to that of Bathurst, NB. I don't have any hard and fast figures beside me, but I'm willing to be that kind of disparity is among the highest in the developed world... despite the fact that we have billions and billions of tax dollars going to try to make it not be the case... and yet the gap grows and grows.

From 1949 though to about 2009 we dumped billions into Newfoundland, and got nothing. Then, they turned on the oil pumps, and now they are a "have" province... all the while collecting more royalties - as a share of the provincial budget - than Alberta.

Ontario, which back in the 60's was the best place in the world (no really; we had the biggest highways and the longest subways) is now a rotten wasteland thanks to the billions the feds need to pay off the provinces to shut their mouths. Canada is a failure.

Canada works better as multiple countries, perhaps 4, perhaps 7, but multiple countries. Ontario, and Quebec are two. The west is another, but you could take BC out and make it it's own country, and you could even do the same with Alberta, leaving SK and MB as their own little country. The Atlantic is another country, with the possibility of an independent Newfoundland. Then, once we finish breaking into 4 chunks, we re-federate EU style. This is actually something the Quebec Separatists want, and given our cultural ties, I'm willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of Albertans would agree with this too.

[bleeding heart]

Because Canada is a failure. Compare the wealth of Calgary, AB to that of Bathurst, NB. I don't have any hard and fast figures beside me, but I'm willing to be that kind of disparity is among the highest in the developed world... despite the fact that we have billions and billions of tax dollars going to try to make it not be the case... and yet the gap grows and grows.

From 1949 though to about 2009 we dumped billions into Newfoundland, and got nothing. Then, they turned on the oil pumps, and now they are a "have" province... all the while collecting more royalties - as a share of the provincial budget - than Alberta.

Ontario, which back in the 60's was the best place in the world (no really; we had the biggest highways and the longest subways) is now a rotten wasteland thanks to the billions the feds need to pay off the provinces to shut their mouths. Canada is a failure.

Canada works better as multiple countries, perhaps 4, perhaps 7, but multiple countries. Ontario, and Quebec are two. The west is another, but you could take BC out and make it it's own country, and you could even do the same with Alberta, leaving SK and MB as their own little country. The Atlantic is another country, with the possibility of an independent Newfoundland. Then, once we finish breaking into 4 chunks, we re-federate EU style. This is actually something the Quebec Separatists want, and given our cultural ties, I'm willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of Albertans would agree with this too.

First of all, a lot of people would argue--are arguing--that the EU is a failure. And the arguments aren't completely without merit, though I guess we'll see what happens.

Second, I sincerely doubt there is an appetite for such a monumental re-structuring as you think...and that includes Alberta, of which I imagine the Federalist/nationalist Canadians outnumber the nascent separatists by a factor of a hundred to one. At least.

No, if Canada does break up, it will be a long time away. You'll personally never see it happen, that's for sure.

[The_Squid]

Compare the wealth of Calgary, AB to that of Bathurst, NB. I don't have any hard and fast figures beside me, but I'm willing to be that kind of disparity is among the highest in the developed world...

Somehow I seriously doubt that. Bathurst, NB, while not a wealthy city, is not exactly living in 3rd world conditions. And it is a town of 15,000 people. Your comparison is a little odd. I'm sure that there are towns in Alberta that don't have the "wealth" that Calgary does as well.

[bleeding heart]

Somehow I seriously doubt that. Bathurst, NB, while not a wealthy city, is not exactly living in 3rd world conditions. And it is a town of 15,000 people. Your comparison is a little odd. I'm sure that there are towns in Alberta that don't have the "wealth" that Calgary does as well.

Excellent points. Sometimes the obvious gets lost in the shuffle of the back-and-forth.

[wyly]

Excellent points. Sometimes the obvious gets lost in the shuffle of the back-and-forth.

there might be a few...the rural corridor between calgary and edmonton is I'm told the wealthiest in canada...

[TheNewTeddy]

I'm willing to bet that the poorest (non native) locale in Alberta is poorer than the richest (non native) locale in the Atlantic. (natives being equally poor for reasons I'll get into in another thread) and I'm willing to bet the gap was not as big many decades ago.

Also, the EU is a failure - because the EU is supposed to get stronger over time. What we'd be building is a reverse EU, something that will get weaker over time.

Frankly, the ideal is the US State Rights groups are able to pull the states out of the feds grasp, and all of our provinces and states can be under some kind of very loose confederation - ideally, one that also includes Europe.

[Newfoundlander]

Because Canada is a failure. Compare the wealth of Calgary, AB to that of Bathurst, NB. I don't have any hard and fast figures beside me, but I'm willing to be that kind of disparity is among the highest in the developed world... despite the fact that we have billions and billions of tax dollars going to try to make it not be the case... and yet the gap grows and grows.

From 1949 though to about 2009 we dumped billions into Newfoundland, and got nothing. Then, they turned on the oil pumps, and now they are a "have" province... all the while collecting more royalties - as a share of the provincial budget - than Alberta.

Ontario, which back in the 60's was the best place in the world (no really; we had the biggest highways and the longest subways) is now a rotten wasteland thanks to the billions the feds need to pay off the provinces to shut their mouths. Canada is a failure.

Canada works better as multiple countries, perhaps 4, perhaps 7, but multiple countries. Ontario, and Quebec are two. The west is another, but you could take BC out and make it it's own country, and you could even do the same with Alberta, leaving SK and MB as their own little country. The Atlantic is another country, with the possibility of an independent Newfoundland. Then, once we finish breaking into 4 chunks, we re-federate EU style. This is actually something the Quebec Separatists want, and given our cultural ties, I'm willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of Albertans would agree with this too.

You got nothing out of Newfoundland joining Canada?

[TheNewTeddy]

Economically, no. Culturally, I'd say we gained more than when any other province joined. In terms of raw cashola? no.

Also, I think "Canada" might actually work even as 2 nations. One "Western Canada" and another "Canada & Quebec" with the latter being Ontario, Quebec, and the Atlantic, with Quebec being all special and stuff.

[Newfoundlander]

Economically, no. Culturally, I'd say we gained more than when any other province joined. In terms of raw cashola? no.

Also, I think "Canada" might actually work even as 2 nations. One "Western Canada" and another "Canada & Quebec" with the latter being Ontario, Quebec, and the Atlantic, with Quebec being all special and stuff.

Canada used Newfoundland and Labrador's fishery as a bargaining tool with other countries before they drove it into the ground, had that not happened it could be a multi billion dollar industry. The oil and gas industry, which has been around for decades, has sent billions into the federal coffers, workers from the province have been a huge contributor in building Alberta's oil industry. Minerals from Labrador have been sent to northern Ontario to be refined, and Quebec has been able to develop their hydro power thanks to the $1 billion a year they've been making off of Labrador's hydro resources.

[TheNewTeddy]

Many of those could have happened without confederation.

[Smallc]

Many of those could have happened without confederation.

And so what? They happened with confederation.

[dre]

There is some really strong valid points to be made for the decentralization of power. Having resource rich regions operating with the same currency and interest rates as regions without a lot of resources to flog creates additional hardships in the latter in any floating exchange rate regime. THe flogging of resources drives the dollar way up, and areas that depend on manufacturing and tourism suffer as a result. The CDN dollar is basically a petro dollar now and that is definately going to hurt provinces that dont have oil to export. It makes them their exports less competitive, discourages tourism, etc.

You can try to fix this with tranfer payments like we do in Canada... But its unclear how long the "have" provinces will tolerate that and it seems to create a lot of animosity on both sides.

Edited August 9, 2012 by dre

[TimG]

You can try to fix this with tranfer payments like we do in Canada... But its unclear how long the "have" provinces will tolerate that and it seems to create a lot of animosity on both sides.

The have provinces only object when the feel like the "have not" provinces are taking them for granted. This happens most often with Quebec where politicians of all stripes spread the myth that Quebec is a net contributor to Canada rather than the other way around.

[TheNewTeddy]

Canada used Newfoundland and Labrador's fishery as a bargaining tool with other countries before they drove it into the ground, had that not happened it could be a multi billion dollar industry. The oil and gas industry, which has been around for decades, has sent billions into the federal coffers, workers from the province have been a huge contributor in building Alberta's oil industry. Minerals from Labrador have been sent to northern Ontario to be refined, and Quebec has been able to develop their hydro power thanks to the $1 billion a year they've been making off of Labrador's hydro resources.

This is actually a great selling point for Independence.

It starts with "Canada used Newfoundland".

It mentions the billions from Oils and Minerals that have gone off elsewhere, that could have stayed right at home.

It mentions workers going to Alberta - something that could still happen even without Confederation.

And it mentions Quebec screwing Newfoundland out of it's electricity, something that I think Quebec would do regardless of which country Quebec and/or Labrador is in.

[Moonlight Graham]

From 1949 though to about 2009 we dumped billions into Newfoundland, and got nothing. Then, they turned on the oil pumps, and now they are a "have" province... all the while collecting more royalties - as a share of the provincial budget - than Alberta.

Ontario, which back in the 60's was the best place in the world (no really; we had the biggest highways and the longest subways) is now a rotten wasteland thanks to the billions the feds need to pay off the provinces to shut their mouths. Canada is a failure.

Canada works better as multiple countries, perhaps 4, perhaps 7, but multiple countries. Ontario, and Quebec are two. The west is another, but you could take BC out and make it it's own country, and you could even do the same with Alberta, leaving SK and MB as their own little country. The Atlantic is another country, with the possibility of an independent Newfoundland. Then, once we finish breaking into 4 chunks, we re-federate EU style. This is actually something the Quebec Separatists want, and given our cultural ties, I'm willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of Albertans would agree with this too.

Why do you need separate countries? Why not greatly increase federalism and the sovereignty/power of the provinces? And get rid of equalization payments? We could have Canada as a country made up as a loose confederation of strong, fairly sovereign provinces, with them sharing foreign relations through the central government.

It's in the best interests of all provinces to stay together as a single country, no matter how loose the central domestic power, for the sake of power in foreign relations. A country with Canada's economic, social, and military power would far exceed that of any individual provinces. Smaller populated states means weaker states, which means we wouldn't have much clout in deciding international issues like security/war, the environment, economics etc. Canada could secure far better terms of trade as a trading partner internationally than as 4 or 5 smaller provinces because your alternative makes each mini-state weaker.

The main reason why China & India are strong rising powers that will likely surpass the US in economic/military might one day is because they have massive populations dwarfing every other state by about a billion or more. The average Chinese annual wage is peanuts compared to Canadians, but add 1.3 billion of them together and you have a future superpower in the making. If China had the population of Canada they'd be about as powerful as Peru or Malaysia.

Also, it would suck to go from 12th in medal standings at the Olympics to like 40th haha.

[TheNewTeddy]

More points:

I think the question becomes "Beyond money, what has Canada done for your province" Meaning that not counting the money Canada takes or gives from or to provinces, what has Canada done for your province? Why be a part of Canada?

In International Relations, Canada presents the provinces as a united front. A well known, popular, liked, and large nation of 35 mil can get more done than a somewhat unknown, and new province of 13 mil.

Outside of foreign affairs, however, I don't see what benefit Canada provides. In trade, many provinces would like to do certain things that they can't for whatever reason. The NEP is an excellent example of this - it was tried and failed.

...sorry, my mind is not really into political debate ATM due to pet illness.

[Newfoundlander]

Many of those could have happened without confederation.

Seeing we controlled the fishery till confederation I highly doubt Canada would have been using our resource as a bargaining tool. Had the fishery not been destroyed Newfoundland and Labrador wouldn't have lost tens of thousands of people to Ontario and Alberta. The federal government also wouldn't have gotten their hands on our oil. I could go on but it will likely end to me offending you.

[Moonlight Graham]

I think the question becomes "Beyond money, what has Canada done for your province" Meaning that not counting the money Canada takes or gives from or to provinces, what has Canada done for your province? Why be a part of Canada?

Ask not what your country can do for you province, but what your province can do for your country, lol.

Now what would being 5, 6, or 7 different provinces do for these provinces? In Quebec it comes down to language/culture, and the problems that come with ie: federal bilingualism for both francophones and anglos.

Other than that, I don't see what can't be accomplished through greater federalism and reduced/eliminated equalization payments.

Breaking up Canada would be depressing. Maybe a province like BC or Alberta would go to the US. It would make travel/working/changing residence across the provinces much more difficult. The cost of running a province within a united Canada compared to running 6 separate sovereign countries is higher, as each province would need its own military & security, embassies, foreign diplomats, trade agreements, currency (though they'd probably still share the same currency, except for Quebec possibly) etc.

[PIK]

As some of you know (the ones who read my rants) I am a separatist. You might ask "what is a Quebec Separatist doing living in Toronto" and I answer "I'm an Ontario Separatist." You might then ask "So you want Ontario to go but Quebec to stay" and I answer "No, I'm a Quebec Separatist too... and an Alberta Separatist, and a Newfoundland Separatist..."

So I find myself in the very strange position, this Quebec election, cheering for the federalists. You see, while I support Quebec leaving this country, Stephen Harper does not, nor do 304 of our 308 MPs (or so they say) The end result of this is that if the PQ is elected, the feds will try to KEEP Quebec in the country - and this is something I oppose.

Billions will be redirected from Ontario and Alberta to keep Quebec happy. Ontario and Alberta already pay too much into this confederation.

I support Separatism, but I do not support the response to it.

While Quebec decides weather it wants a Lady Seppie, a n00b Idiot, or a Corrupt Luckmagnet as their leader, I'm more curious in debating the response to a PQ victory from the rest of Canada.

...I was planning to write more but my point has gotten across and my keyboard is not co-operating, so, I'll end here.

So being a racist bigot, is better then being canadian? I hope you speak french perfectly , because under marois identy pact, which means you need to speak perfect french or you can't be a quebec citizen, which means you can't run for office or work or raise money for political party. Nor can you go to a goverment agency with a greivance. You have become very sickening people, a people full of hate that does not deserve to be in this great country. I hope you realize that if we canadians decide to throw you out, quebec will be a little strip of land along the st Lawrence river.

Edited August 9, 2012 by PIK

[TheNewTeddy]

Uh, I'm from Ontario.

[The_Squid]

Uh, I'm from Ontario.

Disgusting.....

[Army Guy]

From what i read this is all about putting a few gold coins into your pocket, divided the country into haves and have nots, and it pisses you off that some off your tax dollars goes into supporting the have nots....and yet you've failed to see what these provinces provide across the country.. and yet have you looked at how this separation will change the country, you think it will add coins to your purse but those coins will be pumped into other areas to make up for those short falls...

And were does it stop, does Alberta, stay whole and why, maybe the oil portion decides to drop the farmering portion , maybe the native american population decide to create their own nation within a nation, maybe mr jones who owns a few acres is tried of it all to and decides to say screw it all and create is nation as well....i know a stupid course of action but what gives Alberta cause any more wieght than mr jones....and you have this happening all across Canada....i wonder what our neibors south of the border will be thinking....what a fire sale, lets grab Alberta, offer them a deal they can not resist, give them acess to the US dollar, access to US trade....but why stop at the US , why not other countries, what if the soviet union decides to offer the north a deal, or any other other nation, for that matter....mean while your sitting back think what happened to all my gold coins....there sitting in someones elses pocket...

Whats the Canadian dollar going to be worth, whats each provinces trade going to look like,and what do we do if those have nots can not make it, what then do we allow them to flander, or do we assist them. or do be become callous and say to them every man for themselfs.

Have you taken a look at the most recent countries around the globe that have declared independence and tried to go it alone....how many of them have been conflict free, but hey that won't happen in Canada no sir....how is thier econemy doing, sometimes one should watch what he wishes for , because the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence...

What ever happend to taking stock of what we have as a nation, and being happy with that.

[eyeball]

As some of you know (the ones who read my rants) I am a separatist. You might ask "what is a Quebec Separatist doing living in Toronto" and I answer "I'm an Ontario Separatist." You might then ask "So you want Ontario to go but Quebec to stay" and I answer "No, I'm a Quebec Separatist too... and an Alberta Separatist, and a Newfoundland Separatist..."

I'd just as soon eliminate provincial governments and divide provincial responsibilities for governing ourselves between local/regional area-based management boards for lack of better terms, and Ottawa.

Bioregionalism is a political, cultural, and ecological system or set of views based on naturally defined areas called bioregions, similar to ecoregions. Bioregions are defined through physical and environmental features, including watershed boundaries and soil and terrain characteristics. Bioregionalism stresses that the determination of a bioregion is also a cultural phenomenon, and emphasizes local populations, knowledge, and solutions

The text in the above description that I've highlighted best captures how I'd like to be governed. Ottawa should maintain the legal constitutional framework that breaths life into this mode of governance along with representing it to the rest of the world's nations.

Edited August 12, 2012 by eyeball