cybercoma Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) There's a very interesting commentary piece by Jonathan Kay in The National Post. What makes it interesting? A number of points he makes. This is a conservative editor that's more or less praising socialism. Some points -- Canadian fiscal conservatives envied the US. Following the bust in 2008, Canada pulled ahead of the US. What does this mean for Canadian fiscal conservatism? Our strong financial position, Kay argues, is a result of what he's calling "hardheaded socialism," that is socialist policies coupled with fiscal restraint. He points to a number of things Paul Martin did that was against the general direction of other developed nations. In fact, he paints Martin as a visionary and quite possibly the most underrated Prime Minister in our history. The 2008 financial crisis created a massive rift in America’s conservative politics. Throughout the boom years of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, voters had ignored the massive profits that were being siphoned off by the financial industry: What was good for Wall Street was good for everybody. But the backlash against Bush’s TARP program brought out the country’s anti-plutocratic populist spirit — which is why Mitt Romney, a former buyout king, seems like exactly the wrong presidential pick to many Republicans.Read the rest here: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/07/17/jonathan-kay-the-triumph-of-hard-headed-socialism-is-destroying-canadian-conservatism/ Edited July 17, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 This may be so, or it may not be so. If it is so, I would like to think that it's because our process produces better hybrid solutions to problems. Social programs as entitlements, sure, but subject to revisions and reform on a regular basis. Next thing to fix is healthcare... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 Next thing to fix is healthcare what are you going to suggest raising taxes?that'll go over great... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Guest Manny Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) No surprise to me as I have made this observation about Paul Martin a number of times, only to be called a wacko by certain members. But who cares what they think. The criticism towards Martin is that he used the EI surplus money to pay down the debt. That might be true but at least he used the money in a way that helped invest in our future. The payback came later when other economies took big nosedives while Canada was able to keep it up. Edited July 17, 2012 by Manny Quote
Shady Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 Social programs as entitlements, sure, but subject to revisions and reform on a regular basis. That's they key. Revisions and reform. Like the Liberals reforming EI. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 ....Some points -- Canadian fiscal conservatives envied the US. Following the bust in 2008, Canada pulled ahead of the US. What does this mean for Canadian fiscal conservatism? Gee...I don't know...keep watching the Americans (again) ?? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 This is a conservative editor that's more or less praising socialism. Yes well, there will come a time when the right will finally try to claim that socialism was actually their idea. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
cybercoma Posted July 18, 2012 Author Report Posted July 18, 2012 Yes well, there will come a time when the right will finally try to claim that socialism was actually their idea. It already happened in the 19th century. Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 WTF does Paul Martin have to do with socialism? A heard headed socialist was Tommy Douglas - we could use more like him. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 what are you going to suggest raising taxes? that'll go over great... I'm going to suggest better communication, accountability, and creation of a PUBLIC to discuss the matters. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Guest Manny Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 What does this mean for Canadian fiscal conservatism? It means there is a right blend or balance between seemingly opposed economic ideas. The road to success is in finding that balance, and making appropriate adjustments when necessary. It takes intelligence, experience and a bit of luck. Not, partisan monocular vision. Quote
Moonbox Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) He points to a number of things Paul Martin did that was against the general direction of other developed nations. In fact, he paints Martin as a visionary and quite possibly the most underrated Prime Minister in our history. Whatever good Paul Martin did was more a result of his time as Finance Minister than anything else. He and Chretien took a period of uninterrupted prosperity and, to their credit, cut services instead of spending and used the extra tax revenue to pay down our bloated debt. They also thankfully helped the banks from merging and maintained stricter mortgage rules, which saved us the fiasco that most other countries found themselves in. I'm completely baffled, however, why someone would call this 'socialism'. The whole capitalist vs socialist or liberal vs conservative dichotomy arguments are idiot traps that people should really stay clear of. A good idea is a good idea and it's the same whether you want to call yourself a conservative or a liberal. The Bush administration, for example, wasn't Conservative at all, but people were calling them neo-cons and all sorts of stupid shit like that just to dumb the debate down with their rhetoric and ignorance. Lowering taxes and spending too much is just plain dumb, not conservative. Edited July 18, 2012 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
madmax Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 Whatever good Paul Martin did was more a result of his time as Finance Minister than anything else. He and Chretien took a period of uninterrupted prosperity and, to their credit, cut services instead of spending and used the extra tax revenue to pay down our bloated debt. They also thankfully helped the banks from merging and maintained stricter mortgage rules, which saved us the fiasco that most other countries found themselves in. I'm completely baffled, however, why someone would call this 'socialism'. The whole capitalist vs socialist or liberal vs conservative dichotomy arguments are idiot traps that people should really stay clear of. A good idea is a good idea and it's the same whether you want to call yourself a conservative or a liberal. The Bush administration, for example, wasn't Conservative at all, but people were calling them neo-cons and all sorts of stupid shit like that just to dumb the debate down with their rhetoric and ignorance. Lowering taxes and spending too much is just plain dumb, not conservative. Might just be the best post of the year... Quote
wyly Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 I'm going to suggest better communication, accountability, and creation of a PUBLIC to discuss the matters. all good ideas but it'll never happen IMO, politicians don't want any accountability that reveal their errors and MDs and those within the system(health care administrators) aren't allowed to talk because they're employees, talking about the boss or publicly disagreeing with the boss gets you fired...more money/taxes will do the job but joe public is it's own worst enemy, we bitch and whine about healthcare's shortcomings but punish any political party that dares suggest raising taxes to fix it... we need more taxes to address the MD shortage(more or expanded schools, more MD teachers-a catch 22), we need more funding to address staff shortages in all areas...we have a growing population and we don't produce enough medical and support staff to meet that demand...and then there is the cost of new technology not present in past decades, it's expensive and will only become more expensive there's no getting away from that... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
punked Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 Whatever good Paul Martin did was more a result of his time as Finance Minister than anything else. He and Chretien took a period of uninterrupted prosperity and, to their credit, cut services instead of spending and used the extra tax revenue to pay down our bloated debt. They also thankfully helped the banks from merging and maintained stricter mortgage rules, which saved us the fiasco that most other countries found themselves in. I'm completely baffled, however, why someone would call this 'socialism'. The whole capitalist vs socialist or liberal vs conservative dichotomy arguments are idiot traps that people should really stay clear of. A good idea is a good idea and it's the same whether you want to call yourself a conservative or a liberal. The Bush administration, for example, wasn't Conservative at all, but people were calling them neo-cons and all sorts of stupid shit like that just to dumb the debate down with their rhetoric and ignorance. Lowering taxes and spending too much is just plain dumb, not conservative. Thank you Moonbox we agree. Quote
kraychik Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 I wonder is Jonathan Kay is a Marxist conservative in the same sense as Argus. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 all good ideas but it'll never happen IMO, politicians don't want any accountability that reveal their errors and MDs and those within the system(health care administrators) aren't allowed to talk because they're employees, talking about the boss or publicly disagreeing with the boss gets you fired... more money/taxes will do the job but joe public is it's own worst enemy, we bitch and whine about healthcare's shortcomings but punish any political party that dares suggest raising taxes to fix it... we need more taxes to address the MD shortage(more or expanded schools, more MD teachers-a catch 22), we need more funding to address staff shortages in all areas...we have a growing population and we don't produce enough medical and support staff to meet that demand...and then there is the cost of new technology not present in past decades, it's expensive and will only become more expensive there's no getting away from that... You've addressed the main problem, which is US. We don't have a way to discuss the choices to be made in a mature way. It's all managed politically, and it assumes the electorate isn't intelligent enough to assess the choices before us. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Moonbox Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 It's all managed politically, and it assumes knows the electorate isn't intelligent enough to assess the choices before us. Fixed it for ya Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Black Dog Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 I wonder is Jonathan Kay is a Marxist conservative in the same sense as Argus. Funny, you still haven't actually articulated what it means to be a true conservative. easy to throw stones when you can't even be bothered to put your own beliefs on the line. Man up. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 18, 2012 Author Report Posted July 18, 2012 You've addressed the main problem, which is US. We don't have a way to discuss the choices to be made in a mature way. It's all managed politically, and it assumes the electorate isn't intelligent enough to assess the choices before us. One of the biggest problems right now is that if it's not handled politically and people take to protesting, they're looked down upon for doing so. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 Fixed it for ya Why do we have democracy if the electorate is stupid ? I think that it's possible to create areas of discussion (publics) that can evaluate things at a more detailed level. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Moonbox Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 Why do we have democracy if the electorate is stupid ? I think that it's possible to create areas of discussion (publics) that can evaluate things at a more detailed level. It's possible, but nobody would go to these discussions except for the fringes. The tools for further participation by the electorate are already there. The interest, however, isn't. The majority of people are far too busy with important things like Grey's Anatomy to bother. As to why should we have Democracy? Well why not? Just because people are stupid and ignorant doesn't mean they don't want to have the choice to make stupid and ignorant decisions. Once in awhile someone smart and benevolent comes around and is able to get them on his/her side too! Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
bleeding heart Posted July 22, 2012 Report Posted July 22, 2012 all good ideas but it'll never happen IMO, politicians don't want any accountability that reveal their errors and MDs and those within the system(health care administrators) aren't allowed to talk because they're employees, talking about the boss or publicly disagreeing with the boss gets you fired... more money/taxes will do the job but joe public is it's own worst enemy, we bitch and whine about healthcare's shortcomings but punish any political party that dares suggest raising taxes to fix it... we need more taxes to address the MD shortage(more or expanded schools, more MD teachers-a catch 22), we need more funding to address staff shortages in all areas...we have a growing population and we don't produce enough medical and support staff to meet that demand...and then there is the cost of new technology not present in past decades, it's expensive and will only become more expensive there's no getting away from that... I personally do support raising taxes (and yes, that would automatically apply to me personally...I say this to avoid the "other people's money" retorts that are so inevitable, and so lazy). Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted July 22, 2012 Report Posted July 22, 2012 I wonder is Jonathan Kay is a Marxist conservative in the same sense as Argus. He must be, if kraychik disagrees with him. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
wyly Posted July 22, 2012 Report Posted July 22, 2012 It's possible, but nobody would go to these discussions except for the fringes. The tools for further participation by the electorate are already there. The interest, however, isn't. The majority of people are far too busy with important things like Grey's Anatomy to bother. As to why should we have Democracy? Well why not? Just because people are stupid and ignorant doesn't mean they don't want to have the choice to make stupid and ignorant decisions. Once in awhile someone smart and benevolent comes around and is able to get them on his/her side too! ya the public has short term memory and only gets engaged when it effects them personally or there is a crisis that coincides with an election...political parties do their best to avoid any serious discussion of healthcare at election time, all of them promising to support and protect it or begin a number of studies to improve it but never any mention of raising or redirecting taxes to meet the personnel and infrastructure shortages... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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