Signals.Cpl Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 They'll be dragged as much by events as anyone, there's no escape hatch or life boats on this ship. There is a finite amount of money, one person loses another person gains. When all is said and done who do you think is going to be left holding the bag? The upper middle class and below will lose the money and the rich will get richer... I would assume that the people who got us in this mess have already made their exit strategy in case it does not work out so well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 There is a finite amount of money, one person loses another person gains.No, that's wrong. It can happen that a person loses, and no one else gains. For example, if a house burns down, no one gains from the loss. It's a pure loss.----- So if your neighbour's house is on fire, and the fire threatens your house, what do you do Signals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 There is a finite amount of money, one person loses another person gains. When all is said and done who do you think is going to be left holding the bag? Who cares when all is done and it's empty? The upper middle class and below will lose the money and the rich will get richer... I would assume that the people who got us in this mess have already made their exit strategy in case it does not work out so well... Exit where exactly, you figure they've got a Stargate to a new planet stashed somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 They'll be dragged as much by events as anyone, there's no escape hatch or life boats on this ship. You certainly no more about what comes out of guns than me. When I said 'we' I really meant the human species of whom the rich and powerful are still part of even if they often don't act like it. You alluded to the animals around the shrinking water hole………Who’s going to get the first drink? The Lambs or the Lions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 You alluded to the animals around the shrinking water hole………Who’s going to get the first drink? The Lambs or the Lions? Is this another played out "Ive got the guns,you don't", analogy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Is this another played out "Ive got the guns,you don't", analogy? Yes and No………Eyeball and I have been continually side barring into this theme for months in a civil fashion for what the topic generally construes’…….He mentions bringing those in “power” kicking and screaming, but doesn’t demonstrate how this will take place. Is this another Jack Weber drive by or do you have something to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 No, that's wrong. It can happen that a person loses, and no one else gains. For example, if a house burns down, no one gains from the loss. It's a pure loss. ----- So if your neighbour's house is on fire, and the fire threatens your house, what do you do Signals? The problem comes when you dont have a fire extinguisher or any water... all you have is lots of gasoline. If we dump more money into the Eurozone all we are doing is perpetuating the misery in med. europe. We arent helping them we are hurting them. If people stopped giving/lending taxpayer dollars to countries like Greece ten years ago they would be just fine now. These international central banking scumbags already crashed the world economy a few years back, and now they have Europe in a debt crisis and the reason it happened is because money was too easy to borrow, interest rates were too low, and these bankers can now effectively tax the citizens of European nation states, and then loan that money out at interest. We have friends in Europe its true... and we should talk to them one on one and see what we can do to help. But the ECB is NOT our friend. The EP is NOT our friend. These people are slime, that have highjacked European democracies without anyone in Europe having a say. The only countries that put Eurozone membership to a vote soundly rejected the idea and rightly so. THe EP vigorously opposed any democratic participation from the people of Europe even going as far as to threaten European governments that considered putting the matter up for a vote. Then when the Greek government talked about a referendum the EU shit bags rounded on their leader, turfed him out of office and put bankers in charge. These people are not our friends and neighbors, and their house is burning because a few of them set fire to it on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 The problem comes when you dont have a fire extinguisher or any water... all you have is lots of gasoline.Huh?Interest rates are at extremely low levels. Savers are in cash, or near cash. Boomers have trillions saved. And dre, you speak of gasoline? ---- If your neighbour's house is on fire, you may help to put the fire out because of so-called solidarity. IMHO: You stop the fire because it may spread to your own house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 He mentions bringing those in “power” kicking and screaming, but doesn’t demonstrate how this will take place. It was just a side comment but in any case...I did demonstrate it by pointing out that we're all in this together whether we like it or not. So you imagine the rich and powerful have another planet on the stash somewhere too or will somehow manage to rise high enough above the die-back that's taking place on this one to be immune to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 ---- 1) Stand by and refuse to help to stop the fire because the neighbour is rich and the kid is stupid, spoiled. 2) Stop the fire. Are those the real choices? How about don't give the kid any more money so he can't afford to keep buying matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Are those the real choices? How about don't give the kid any more money so he can't afford to keep buying matches? This isn't about morals. Stop trying to make it about morals that is what got us into the great depression. You can punish who ever you want when the economic engine of the world starts chugging again. However right now this all needs to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 This isn't about morals. Stop trying to make it about morals that is what got us into the great depression. You can punish who ever you want when the economic engine of the world starts chugging again. However right now this all needs to stop. How in hell did you take my post to involve morals? If you give money to someone who will simply use it to extend or repeat his negative behaviour, you will never accomplish anything positive. Bailing out Greece without forcing them to become fiscally responsible will only mean that in a few years they will need another bailout, then another. You are talking about being an enabler, as with an alcoholic. He has run out of money. You want everyone to give him some. If they do, he will only get drunk again. That all seems simple logic to me. How the hell do you make that into a morality argument? I would think that championing being an enabler would not be a good moral position for you to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) How in hell did you take my post to involve morals? If you give money to someone who will simply use it to extend or repeat his negative behaviour, you will never accomplish anything positive. Bailing out Greece without forcing them to become fiscally responsible will only mean that in a few years they will need another bailout, then another. You are talking about being an enabler, as with an alcoholic. He has run out of money. You want everyone to give him some. If they do, he will only get drunk again. That all seems simple logic to me. How the hell do you make that into a morality argument? I would think that championing being an enabler would not be a good moral position for you to take. They forced them to be "Fiscally responsible" all it did was kill their economy and force them into more debt. Now with Spain and Ireland they didn't even have a public debt problem. Private debt and unregulated banking drove them to the brink. You are making a complex problem a simple one because you don't want to face the realities of the situation. Large scale economies are a little bit more complicated then an alcoholic or a family. Sorry to be the one who has to break that news to you. Edited June 9, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I think lot's of countries should adopt the Scott Walker approach.He did get results love him or hate him.It's funny how many didn't volunteer their dues for the unions now that they don't have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 They forced them to be "Fiscally responsible" all it did was kill their economy and force them into more debt. Now with Spain and Ireland they didn't even have a public debt problem. Private debt and unregulated banking drove them to the brink. You are making a complex problem a simple one because you don't want to face the realities of the situation. Large scale economies are a little bit more complicated then an alcoholic or a family. Sorry to be the one who has to break that news to you. You can't force people into more debt, you can only lend them money. Or not. This country was close to the brink 20 years ago. No one bailed us out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I think lot's of countries should adopt the Scott Walker approach.He did get results love him or hate him.It's funny how many didn't volunteer their dues for the unions now that they don't have to. If the results we want are to be the worst in the nation in job creation then yes people should go with his approach. I mean that is what Greece is doing right now and it is working great for them right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 You can't force people into more debt, you can only lend them money. Or not. This country was close to the brink 20 years ago. No one bailed us out. The issue isn't if indebted countries should pay off or get out of debt. Everyone in the world agrees with that. The issues is when every country and every private business cuts at the same time the world goes into a depression. The boom not the bust is the time to cut. I THOUGHT WE LEARNED OUR LESSONS FROM THE DEPRESSION! The whole world can cut but that aint going to help anyone get out of debt. You spending is my income and my spending is your income. Someone needs to spend or that is it sky rocketing unemployment and no one pays off anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Here's the answer.. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/06/08/harper-europe-socialism.html So he refused to deny it, then... Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I have yet to see a source that supports this comment that we give billions to europe, to rich private euro bankers. Well, Mulcair is complaining that Harper isn't cooperating. What Europe wants, as has been stated, is a pledge for some billions of dollars. If Mulcair was okay with Harper telling them to forget it, I would assume he would not be 'castigating' him for not helping, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Bailing them out completely sucks but I think we have to help them because one day it could be us. An economically broken Europe will also affect us economically so it's in our interests unfortunately. France just LOWERED its retirement age from 62 back to 60. Apparently, as far as the French are concerned, there's really no problem. Meanwhile, we just RAISED our retirement age to 67. Do you seriously think we ought to give these people money so they can retire seven years earlier than us? Never mind the fact that, since we still have a deficit, we'd have to borrow the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) France just LOWERED its retirement age from 62 back to 60. Apparently, as far as the French are concerned, there's really no problem. Meanwhile, we just RAISED our retirement age to 67. Do you seriously think we ought to give these people money so they can retire seven years earlier than us? Never mind the fact that, since we still have a deficit, we'd have to borrow the money! France's interest rates is at a 10 year low. No one needs to lend to France or bail them out they can just go out and borrow it all on their own. Your argument makes no sense. Their 10 year bond yield is at about the same rate as ours. All you proved with this post is you have no clue what this whole thread is about. You are using smoke and mirrors to not address the real issue. Edited June 9, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) France's interest rates is at a 10 year low. No one needs to lend to France or bail them out they can just go out and borrow it all on their own. Your argument makes no sense. Their 10 year bond yield is at about the same rate as ours. All you proved with this post is you have no clue what this whole thread is about. You are using smoke and mirrors to not address the real issue. Oh, France ISN'T part of the EEU? France doesn't have a large and growing deficit? Their spending isn't rising faster than their income? They don't have a terrible unemployment rate? My mistake! The French and Germans are the principal architects of the EEU and it's common currency, and the principal beneficiaries. Their citizens enjoy lots of vacations, lots of paid holidays, and outstanding social benefits, far better than ours. Let THEM sacrifice and bail their comrades out. And by the way, don't the Spanish, Greeks and Italians still get a lot more vacation days, a lot more national holidays, and enjoy better social benefits as well? Edited June 9, 2012 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 France's interest rates is at a 10 year low. No one needs to lend to France or bail them out they can just go out and borrow it all on their own. Your argument makes no sense. Their 10 year bond yield is at about the same rate as ours. All you proved with this post is you have no clue what this whole thread is about. You are using smoke and mirrors to not address the real issue. If so, whats your point? Far better we should borrow money to bail out the Euro than they should have to do it themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Oh, France ISN'T part of the EEU? France doesn't have a large and growing deficit? Their spending isn't rising faster than their income? They don't have a terrible unemployment rate? My mistake! The French and Germans are the principal architects of the EEU and it's common currency, and the principal beneficiaries. Their citizens enjoy lots of vacations, lots of paid holidays, and outstanding social benefits, far better than ours. Let THEM sacrifice and bail their comrades out. If a bailout comes it wont be for France it will be for Spain or some other PIIGS. At this point in time this argument needs not be about the Welfare state in Europe. It needs to be about the Canadian economy. Europe goes tits up oil goes below 80 dollars a barrel so we can say good by to the tarsands until that goes up. They have already closed the development of the second Pot Ash mine in Sask. Commodities go underwater and we are screwed aren't we? Not to mention manufacturing will be decreasing and so on. I am not saying we should give them Billions. I am saying framing the argument the way you guys are and acting as if there will be no repercussions to us is clearly wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 good points. Harper wants a trade agreement with Europe. Not much sense in that if there is no Europe to trade with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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