Our duty to bail out europe

[Canuckistani]

I'd still monitor whoever they vote for though.

So you would be the "custodiet ipsos custodes?"

[Jack Weber]

France, Russia and China come to mind.

France failed...It ended up with an even worse aristocracy...

So that leaves the Soviet Union and Chairman Mao...

Russia is now run by an autocrat,oligarchs,and,organized crime...

The Chinese have eschewed Mao's agrarian workers paradise for the far the more lucrative,but equally authoritarian,Authoritarian Capitalism (see: The modern face of Fascism)...

And this is what you want to emulate?

[punked]

I am just going to ask. Have we learned nothing from the great depression?

[Tilter]

Source?

Sun News---- I saw it there also and I think we are really remiss in not following Mulcair's lead on this. I suppose PIK, that you don't realize that some newly employed of the Europeans who are asking for the money are required to have only 3 weeks PAID vacation a year,---- quite a hardship for people who can attend a number of years in post-secondary education at no cost and are accustomed to paying virtually no tax. I suppose the dictatorial government in Ottawa will expect them to find a way to solvency on their own--- What a shocker. I sure hope that the next election picks the NDP as a reigning majority so Mulcair can rush in with at least 10 Billion Bux per Eurozone country so those poor people can stop worrying about where to spend their next 6 week annual vacation or after they retire at 57 or 62. Without aid some of them won"t be able to spend it in Monaco, rather, they will have to stay in their home country Bummer. OK--- so the bailout would only cost a 15% increase in income tax in Canada --- let's have a heart people-- quit being so selfish.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Tilter

[dre]

Maybe what we really need to match our one global economy is one global currency.

I will enthusiastically take up arms against anyone that tries to attempts such folly. THat is absolutely the single biggest mistake we could ever make.

As folks in the EU are finding out the hard way, giving up monetary control means giving up political control as well.

Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild made the following statement and he is absolutely right...

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws

Mackenzie King was absolutely correct when he said...

Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most conspicuous and sacred responsibility, all talk of sovereignty of Parliament and of democracy is idle and futile... Once a nation parts with control of its credit, it matters not who makes the nations laws.

These currency unions and the internationalization of banking are DEMOCRACY CRUSHERS... ideas so disasterous and damaging to the common man that people who are promoting them should be treated as our most dangerous enemies.

And besides stripping us of much of our political power as citizens, currency unions are economic disasters as well. You no longer have floating exchange rates to mitigate differences between economies. To just arbitrarily decide country a (some agrarian economy) and country b (a manufacturing economy) should have the same monetary policy and interest rates is complete and utter madness.

Harper is right... we definately should not borrow money to give to the ECB, and quite frankly I wouldnt even allow the BOC to talk to these people. We have ALREADY been bailing out Europe through the IMF.

THat doesnt mean we should not help. If countries like Greece owe us money we should write that debt down, and some type of loans and foreign aid may be called for. But if we are going to do those things we give the money directly to the countries in trouble, not one red cent to the pieces of shit at the ECB, and Id seriously consider re-evaluating funding the IMF as well.

Edited June 8, 2012 by dre

[Wild Bill]

At the risk of sounding like I've been listening to my toaster, I think we should be all facing the reality that what we really need to do is effectively 'bail-out' our whole species. I'd go with a gigantic jubilee - a forgiving of all debts everywhere and establish an entirely new currency (I've always had a fondness for Michael Hardener's idea of a digital time-stamped currency) based on a full cost accounting of things like environmental degradation and in-kind contributions of charitable acts that contribute or restore something to society or the environment.

Yet eyeball, you know as well as anyone that within a few years of forgiving every country's debts a very large number of them would just go back into debt again, with perhaps Greece and Portugal at the head of the line...

[dre]

Yet eyeball, you know as well as anyone that within a few years of forgiving every country's debts a very large number of them would just go back into debt again, with perhaps Greece and Portugal at the head of the line...

The problem is everyone with any basic common sense knows that Greece and Portugal should not be in a currency union with Germany and France. The Portugese and Greeks know it, members of the European Parliament know it, and the scumbags at the ECB know it as well. The only reason these countries dont just default and leave the union is they are being bribed with yet MORE debt. The last bailout wasnt enough, and now we need another one, and there will be another one after that, and another one after that.

[Moonlight Graham]

Globe article:

"Ottawa insists the IMF exists to help the world’s developing countries, not Europe, and Canada takes the position that it is standing up for non-G20 countries that are uncomfortable with IMF funds going to the euro zone."

The IMF/Brettons Woods institutions came into existence in great part in order to bail out Europe after the devastation from WWII. So looks like the we're up to those old tricks again.

Bailing them out completely sucks but I think we have to help them because one day it could be us. An economically broken Europe will also affect us economically so it's in our interests unfortunately.

[eyeball]

So you would be the "custodiet ipsos custodes?"

That's right, just like everyone else.

[Wild Bill]

The problem is everyone with any basic common sense knows that Greece and Portugal should not be in a currency union with Germany and France. The Portugese and Greeks know it, members of the European Parliament know it, and the scumbags at the ECB know it as well. The only reason these countries dont just default and leave the union is they are being bribed with yet MORE debt. The last bailout wasnt enough, and now we need another one, and there will be another one after that, and another one after that.

I agree, Dre. I think it was a cultural thing. Germany had a far different work ethic to its culture than Greece or some of the other countries. For political reasons, the leaders of Europe at the time they formed the ECU wanted to include ALL the countries! They didn't seem to worry much about what might or would happen in the future.

Perhaps they thought that Greece, Portugal and the others would somehow change their culture and become like the more fiscally responsible countries. If so, they were dreaming in technicolour. Was it Thatcher who said that socialism is an experiment that runs until someone ELSE'S money runs out?

The voters of these deadbeat countries have been conditioned to think that they can have what they want and can ignore fiscal reality. If the German bankers cut them off they seem to think that by exerting pressure on their own politicians that will force other countries to give them what they want or need.

Very illogical but very typically human.

Man, are they headed for a reality check! I expect the deadbeat countries will drop the Euro and return to their old currencies, thinking that devalued currency will somehow be accepted at par to pay off their debts. This of course cannot happen.

They are going to learn a very hard lesson! Hopefully, other countries will profit from their example and not copy their folly...

[eyeball]

France failed...It ended up with an even worse aristocracy...

So that leaves the Soviet Union and Chairman Mao...

Russia is now run by an autocrat,oligarchs,and,organized crime...

The Chinese have eschewed Mao's agrarian workers paradise for the far the more lucrative,but equally authoritarian,Authoritarian Capitalism (see: The modern face of Fascism)...

And this is what you want to emulate?

Absolutely not. Where on Earth did you get that notion?

[dre]

The IMF/Brettons Woods institutions came into existence in great part in order to bail out Europe after the devastation from WWII. So looks like the we're up to those old tricks again.

Bailing them out completely sucks but I think we have to help them because one day it could be us. An economically broken Europe will also affect us economically so it's in our interests unfortunately.

The problem is we arent helping them buy giving them this money we are hurting them, because the Eurozone will stay together longer and these countries desperately need out.

What Canada SHOULD do is approach countries like Greece, and offer them substancial assistance on the condition that they withdraw from the Eurozone and put themselves on a path towards stability. Because I can tell you right now that Greece will NEVER be successful in the eurozone with interest rates and monetary policy designed for Germany. It just dont work no matter how much money we dump into it.

[dre]

I agree, Dre. I think it was a cultural thing. Germany had a far different work ethic to its culture than Greece or some of the other countries. For political reasons, the leaders of Europe at the time they formed the ECU wanted to include ALL the countries! They didn't seem to worry much about what might or would happen in the future.

Perhaps they thought that Greece, Portugal and the others would somehow change their culture and become like the more fiscally responsible countries. If so, they were dreaming in technicolour. Was it Thatcher who said that socialism is an experiment that runs until someone ELSE'S money runs out?

The voters of these deadbeat countries have been conditioned to think that they can have what they want and can ignore fiscal reality. If the German bankers cut them off they seem to think that by exerting pressure on their own politicians that will force other countries to give them what they want or need.

Very illogical but very typically human.

Man, are they headed for a reality check! I expect the deadbeat countries will drop the Euro and return to their old currencies, thinking that devalued currency will somehow be accepted at par to pay off their debts. This of course cannot happen.

They are going to learn a very hard lesson! Hopefully, other countries will profit from their example and not copy their folly...

Theres some truth to what you say but theres a lot more to it than that. Greeces biggest mistake was joining the Eurozone in the first place. The ECB extended too much easy credit to them, and interest rates were set way too low. This caused the same kind of boom/bust cycle that we saw in many other countries.

Its true that the Greek government acted irresponsibly but much of this lies at the feet of the ECB and IMF themselves and the Euro-Nationalists that wanted this project at all costs.

This goes way beyond platitudes about deadbeats and socialism.

Man, are they headed for a reality check! I expect the deadbeat countries will drop the Euro and return to their old currencies, thinking that devalued currency will somehow be accepted at par to pay off their debts. This of course cannot happen.

It absolutely CAN happen and it absolutely WILL happen. Greece can settle its debts however it chooses or not settle them at all. The problem of course is a default will cause them a lot of pain in the short term, but its still the right thing to do.

Greece is in the national equivalent a payday loan trap. A ex-girlfriend of mine manages a Money Mart... Their strategy is to get their clients into a payday loan trap so that they ALWAYS need to borrow money prior to getting their paycheck. And because the interest they pay effectively reduces the ammount of money they are paid, each pay period they have to borrow a little more a little earlier. Its an inescapable spiral. I asked her what she would do if she got herself into such a loop, and off the record she told me that the very best thing you can do is default. Tell money mart to go f__ck themselves and take the HIT associated with that source of credit drying up.

Countries like Greece need to stop borrowing money from predatory lenders, they need to man up and take the inevitable HIT, and work towards an economy that is financed by production not by the ECB.

[punked]

I agree, Dre. I think it was a cultural thing. Germany had a far different work ethic to its culture than Greece or some of the other countries. For political reasons, the leaders of Europe at the time they formed the ECU wanted to include ALL the countries! They didn't seem to worry much about what might or would happen in the future.

Perhaps they thought that Greece, Portugal and the others would somehow change their culture and become like the more fiscally responsible countries. If so, they were dreaming in technicolour. Was it Thatcher who said that socialism is an experiment that runs until someone ELSE'S money runs out?

The voters of these deadbeat countries have been conditioned to think that they can have what they want and can ignore fiscal reality. If the German bankers cut them off they seem to think that by exerting pressure on their own politicians that will force other countries to give them what they want or need.

Very illogical but very typically human.

Man, are they headed for a reality check! I expect the deadbeat countries will drop the Euro and return to their old currencies, thinking that devalued currency will somehow be accepted at par to pay off their debts. This of course cannot happen.

They are going to learn a very hard lesson! Hopefully, other countries will profit from their example and not copy their folly...

Give me a break. It was about German banks giving out loans no country could pay so those countries would buy German goods.

[Topaz]

The saying charity starts at home and we sure need the charity at home. On the other hand, Candians better hope we never get in the same position as the Europe because there won't be anyone around to help us, after that statement. Also, I was watching a US channel and one of the people said what needs to happen to Europe is to bring it into one large union or states with only one capital, and then call it the united states of Europe. It was also said it would take a generation to get that to happen. Since Germany is the best from the rest would Berlin be the capital? I'm not sure the rest of those countries would go for it.

[Wild Bill]

Give me a break. It was about German banks giving out loans no country could pay so those countries would buy German goods.

Punked, I would agree with you that there are predatory money lenders in this world.

That being said, where you and I seem to disagree is that I believe in individual responsibility - countries like Greece should never have borrowed the money!

These weren't children here, Punked! These were leaders of their nations! Are you saying they were somehow poor mental defectives who only borrowed money because someone tricked them?

I can understand if you simply hate bankers but I don't understand how you can let presidents and other leaders of countries off the hook scot-free!

This is why so many people think the left has no concept any longer of individual responsibility! No one makes mistakes. We are all victims of criminals who are labelled such simply by socialist definitions.

[Jack Weber]

Absolutely not. Where on Earth did you get that notion?

You claimed a revolution was necessary...

You cited France,Russia,and,China..

I assume the revolutions that occurred in those countries are the ones you were referring to?

[capricorn]

What Canada SHOULD do is approach countries like Greece, and offer them substancial assistance on the condition that they withdraw from the Eurozone and put themselves on a path towards stability.

Germany, and others I'm sure, is already miffed that we're not jumping in with both feet to contribute to their rescue fund. Offering aid on a bilateral level with the likes of Greece, conditional on withdrawal from the eurozone, risks widening the rift. Harper's walking a fine line. He's pointing out deficiencies and proposing fixes while trying to maintain a climate conducive to trade. He appears to be laying some groundwork in advance of the G8/G20.

[eyeball]

I will enthusiastically take up arms against anyone that tries to attempts such folly. THat is absolutely the single biggest mistake we could ever make.

Maybe I'd feel more vehement if we were talking about aliens from different planets forcing their currency on us but do you see no point in our future at which Earthlings can treat each other's currency as if it weren't from another planet?

As folks in the EU are finding out the hard way, giving up monetary control means giving up political control as well.

Folks in the EU like most folks everywhere on this dirtball have way less power than they imagine.

I see little point in discussing wealth without accounting for power. The two seem as related as space and time. Monitoring one or the other or both is the key to making them work better for everyone, notwithstanding I suppose those who can't or won't tolerate transparency and accountability.

[eyeball]

You claimed a revolution was necessary...

You cited France,Russia,and,China..

I assume the revolutions that occurred in those countries are the ones you were referring to?

What I meant is revolutions appear to be inevitable given our complete inability to come up with policies that regulate power in the way that monetary policies regulate money, and for the same reasons, to cultivate their fairer distribution.

I certainly hope to avoid a standard revolution because I think the next one that is triggered by disparity will set our global economy and civilization back so far on our assess that France, Russia and China will look like halcyon days.

We just do not have the planet for the taking that we had in previous times. We're heading for an ecological bottleneck in which up to 50% or more of species on the planet will go extinct because the resources and ecosystems will have all been used up and over-exploited. The economic squeeze we're facing too is not a coincidence. The economy like a water-hole will get smaller and the animals will get meaner. There are two ways through this bottleneck, the hard way in which we stay the course and all follow our separate path or we can choose an even harder way and go though in a spirit of co-operation and...Kumbiya.

The biggest fly in the ointment is that we'll probably have to drag the rich and powerful screaming and kicking every inch of the way. I don't expect them to lead us through, do you?

[Guest Derek L]

What I meant is revolutions appear to be inevitable given our complete inability to come up with policies that regulate power in the way that monetary policies regulate money, and for the same reasons, to cultivate their fairer distribution.

I certainly hope to avoid a standard revolution because I think the next one that is triggered by disparity will set our global economy and civilization back so far on our assess that France, Russia and China will look like halcyon days.

We just do not have the planet for the taking that we had in previous times. We're heading for an ecological bottleneck in which up to 50% or more of species on the planet will go extinct because the resources and ecosystems will have all been used up and over-exploited. The economic squeeze we're facing too is not a coincidence. The economy like a water-hole will get smaller and the animals will get meaner. There are two ways through this bottleneck, the hard way in which we stay the course and all follow our separate path or we can choose an even harder way and go though in a spirit of co-operation and...Kumbiya.

The biggest fly in the ointment is that we'll probably have to drag the rich and powerful screaming and kicking every inch of the way. I don't expect them to lead us through, do you?

How do you intend to “drag” the “rich” and “powerful”, when it’s your contention (Amongst many others) that the “rich & powerful” are running the system?

To go back to Mao, as I’ve quoted many times : “Political Power grows out of the barrel of a gun”

Haven’t you noticed, the rich and/or powerful tend to be aligned, and as such, I question the ability of the “Drum Circle” to drag the “firing line” anywhere.

[madmax]

It was on the radio, so I can't link anything yet MCC, if true ,his french citizenship might come into play now more then ever.

Its not true at all. The Finance Minister pulled this monkey out of his butt when he got off his speaking notes.

[August1991]

Mulcair in the commons demands that we borrow billions of dollars and give it, not loan ,but give it to the private rich euro bankers, because it is our duty. And at the same time give kadr a mil or 2 while we are at it.

Why should Canada fork over billions in taxpayers' money, not a repayable loan but an outright gift, to countries who have mismanaged their economy?

----

If I were Mulcair, this is the argument that I would give. (Call it the Bernanke argument.)

The son (Greece) of your rich neighbour (Europe) plays with matches and sets his house/condo on fire. What do you do?

1) Stand by and refuse to help to stop the fire because the neighbour is rich and the kid is stupid, spoiled.

2) Stop the fire.

Bear in mind that if your neighbour's condo/house burns down, your place will likely also go up in flames.

----

Harper's strategy is "tough love", and it will hurt Canadians. But then, Canada can be a free rider since our contribution to the IMF is minimal. Harper can let Obama make this choice. Obama is a fire brigade, and Harper is the guy with a garden hose who refuses to turn it on.

Harper: You spoiled that kid!

Europe: But our house is on fire and if it spreads, your house will burn too!

Harper: The fire brigade will be here soon. This will teach you not to spoil kids. I refuse to turn on my garden hose.

Europe: The fire is coming close to your house!

Harper: It's not my fault that you let your children play with matches. This will teach you.

Edited June 9, 2012 by August1991

[Signals.Cpl]

If true, I think he'll tank in the polls.

I'm a bit offended by it.

We are already making cuts to avoid it in Canada... now those cuts would go to assist countries overseas?

I am a fan of letting everything tank and sorting it out rather than just artificially proping up our failed system. Let the rich lose all of their money, hit the restart button.

Thats the problem though, the rich won't be losing their money it be the rest of us...

[eyeball]

How do you intend to “drag” the “rich” and “powerful”, when it’s your contention (Amongst many others) that the “rich & powerful” are running the system?

They'll be dragged as much by events as anyone, there's no escape hatch or life boats on this ship.

To go back to Mao, as I’ve quoted many times : “Political Power grows out of the barrel of a gun”

You certainly no more about what comes out of guns than me.

Haven’t you noticed, the rich and/or powerful tend to be aligned, and as such, I question the ability of the “Drum Circle” to drag the “firing line” anywhere.

When I said 'we' I really meant the human species of whom the rich and powerful are still part of even if they often don't act like it.