NDP ahead

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Right back atchew: Why are people so willing to tunnel view on something when there are a host of other factors to consider?

:-)

Trying to minimize the real negative effects of a major factor because "other factors exist" is way different than discussing the other factors. Just saying Because purposefully being obtuse does not mean that the dutch disease effect has not made our situation worse for everyone not living in Alberta.

I have a job for you, working at a cigarette company 20-30 years ago. "There are many other factors that lead to cancer, not just smoking tobacco products".

[Canuckistani]

Where does it say across the country? It certainly isn't contributing to job losses in BC, Sask, or Alberta where gas, coal and oil are king.

Pardon me, of course you're correct there, typing too fast. That's what I meant.

Edit:That it's a higher percentage in Ontario (and Quebec as well, non?) bolsters my belief that a lot of this is politics playing for votes in those two provinces. Naturally that doesn't mean something shouldnt be done to correct that pattern, but any party could promise that.

Something does need to be done - otherwise we'll just have even more conflict between west and east. The report itself recommended using some of the tax revenue brought in by resource exports be used to support manufacturing by building infrastructure and other means. I think we need a national energy and industrial strategy in this country so that we don't get Dutch disease but Norway health. They seem to be doing it right.

[Claudius]

Trying to minimize the real negative effects of a major factor because "other factors exist" is way different than discussing the other factors.

I never said it didn't but that factor plays better to the central provinces than the others. That's why it's being highlighted.

Because purposefully being obtuse does not mean that the dutch disease effect has not made our situation worse for everyone not living in Alberta.

I'm not being purposely obtuse. My reply was perfectly valid. The "Dutch Disease" scenario plays well to the Ontario/Quebec audiences which is why it's being hyped. Consider it may (probably) isn't even the easiest factor to target and do something about, but the other factors are more mundane and don't insinuate the message: "I'll fight for jobs in Ontario and Quebec", which is the political motive in focusing on that one factor specifically.

Oh and worse for everyone except Alberta? There's no evidence of that, but thanks for illustrating the bias at hand here. Earlier you said:

That's 30% of job losses across the country. The percentage is higher in Ontario.

And that's simply not true. There is not 30% job losses across the country, simple as that. And even if there are in Ontario "Dutch Disease" wouldn't account for even half of those losses.

I have a job for you, working at a cigarette company 20-30 years ago. "There are many other factors that lead to cancer, not just smoking tobacco products".

Snide, maybe a little funny, but not remotely the same. A better analogy would be anti-tobacco lobbiests concentrating on yellow fingers or impotence to divert attention from a cancer risk because they think their audience will respond better to that.

.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Claudius

[Claudius]

Something does need to be done - otherwise we'll just have even more conflict between west and east. The report itself recommended using some of the tax revenue brought in by resource exports be used to support manufacturing by building infrastructure and other means. I think we need a national energy and industrial strategy in this country so that we don't get Dutch disease but Norway health. They seem to be doing it right.

Never denied something should be done about it. A national energy strategy sounds great for provinces not playing the energy game.

Provinces hold dominion over their perspective resources. This is a fundamental glue that holds the country together. No province will put up with being forced to produce energy the way Ottawa feels it should and give up their rights to it, nor should they.

You could turn that around: why should Ontario be told how to run their manufacturing sector by Alberta or Newfoundland? If the entire country decided, for example, that Ontario labour unions were a bad idea and wanted to get rid of them or minimize their power how well do you think that would play in Ontario?

Edited May 28, 2012 by Claudius

[punked]

Never denied something should be done about it. A national energy strategy sounds great for provinces not playing the energy game.

Provinces hold dominion over their perspective resources. This is a fundamental glue that holds the country together. No province will put up with being forced to produce energy the way Ottawa feels it should and give up their rights to it, nor should they.

You could turn that around: why should Ontario be told how to run their manufacturing sector by Alberta or Newfoundland? If the entire country decided, for example, that Ontario labour unions were a bad idea and wanted to get rid of them or minimize their power how well do you think that would play in Ontario?

Pretty sure that is just what the Conservatives are doing. "BACK TO WORK UNIONS! YOU DON'T HELP ALBERTA AT ALL! WE NEED TO SHIP OUR OIL BACK TO WORK"

[Topaz]

Some of the journalist think that by getting all the nasty litle things Harper wants done out of the way before the election that voters will FORGET all the nasty things he's done. I don't agree. Voters who are going lose their OAS for 2 years and EI and pensions and jobs don't forget, they get even at the voting booths and now with CP which has workers across Canada, the Tories may lose some of its supporters out West.

[wyly]

Some of the journalist think that by getting all the nasty litle things Harper wants done out of the way before the election that voters will FORGET all the nasty things he's done. I don't agree. Voters who are going lose their OAS for 2 years and EI and pensions and jobs don't forget, they get even at the voting booths and now with CP which has workers across Canada, the Tories may lose some of its supporters out West.

voters didn't forget Adscam the liberals paid the price...no elected government lasts forever an accumulation of voter grievances does in every government sooner or later...

[Claudius]

Never denied something should be done about it. A national energy strategy sounds great for provinces not playing the energy game.

Provinces hold dominion over their perspective resources. This is a fundamental glue that holds the country together. No province will put up with being forced to produce energy the way Ottawa feels it should and give up their rights to it, nor should they.

You could turn that around: why should Ontario be told how to run their manufacturing sector by Alberta or Newfoundland? If the entire country decided, for example, that Ontario labour unions were a bad idea and wanted to get rid of them or minimize their power how well do you think that would play in Ontario?

Pretty sure that is just what the Conservatives are doing. "BACK TO WORK UNIONS! YOU DON'T HELP ALBERTA AT ALL! WE NEED TO SHIP OUR OIL BACK TO WORK"

Strange. I don't recall saying "Conservatives". I gave an example of other provinces telling Ontario how to operate in order to illustrate the point that it always sounds good to nationalize someone else's industry, but the provinces in the example were irrelevant to the point.

One assumes the conservatives won't be in office forever but a 'national energy' policy would remain.

YOU DON'T HELP ALBERTA AT ALL!

I hope you're not one of those people who like to tell themselves that Alberta is the reason the CPC are in power or that Alberta is their "power base". It sounds nice but the whole thing always comes down to Ontario and in most cases Quebec.

Without running to check....

Alberta gave the CPC 26 seats?

Ontario gave them 73, more seats than they got from all the Western provinces combined (72).

The truth in this country is very simple: The power base for every single party besides the Bloc is Ontario and then Quebec. That's the reality of Canadian politics.

If you're not one of those people then pardon me for bringing it up and please disregard.

If you are then I believe you are ignoring the simple math of it. Parties play for Ontario and Quebec. The last election results were pretty tame or unexciting, except the significant example of majority that is most likely the first in Canadian history that was won almost entirely without Quebec. That in of itself causes a little more discord in the country without the CPC really doing anything to sew it besides win.

[bleeding heart]

The last election results were pretty tame or unexciting, except the significant example of majority that is most likely the first in Canadian history that was won almost entirely without Quebec. That in of itself causes a little more discord in the country without the CPC really doing anything to sew it besides win.

I had thought the self-destruction of the Liberals and the NDP's new showing were pretty significant as well.

[Claudius]

I had thought the self-destruction of the Liberals and the NDP's new showing were pretty significant as well.

....and the 'public mandate' given to the Bloc. Yeah everyone was shaken up. Some say the NDP can't hold it, especially if 'it' is Quebec. Thing is,imo (lol) the NDP have been doing a better job as a neutered opposition than the Liberals were doing when the CPC was a minority. I don't mean the polls, I mean in the house.

...if they get Ontario....

Edited May 28, 2012 by Claudius

[Moonlight Graham]

Vs the dinosaurs the CPC has fronted?

Don't you mean the "humans and who walked the earth with dinosaurs" believers the CPC fronted?

This is polls doesn't mean much at all. It's fun to support an idealistic populist party in a poll, but another thing to mark their name on election day. But heck, i'd give them a shot

[mentalfloss]

I had thought the self-destruction of the Liberals and the NDP's new showing were pretty significant as well.

That was the big talk around most parts as the NDP were just beginning this momentum shift.

[PIK]

Dion and iggy both polled better then harper at one time, but when the election comes and people start to pay attention, harper will win hands down. Canadians are not stupid to give angry tom the keys to the bank.And does anyone really think the NDP or the libs would have done a better job at bringing us thru this mess in the last few years, then harper? I don't think so.

[mentalfloss]

Dion and iggy both polled better then harper at one time, but when the election comes and people start to pay attention, harper will win hands down. Canadians are not stupid to give angry tom the keys to the bank.And does anyone really think the NDP or the libs would have done a better job at bringing us thru this mess in the last few years, then harper? I don't think so.

The scary thing is that the NDP seem to have a ton of momentum going for them right now. Even Mulcair's supposedly divisive "dutch comments" aren't knocking any support.

Edited May 29, 2012 by mentalfloss

[Canuckistani]

And does anyone really think the NDP or the libs would have done a better job at bringing us thru this mess in the last few years, then harper? I don't think so.

The Libs, yes, since it was what they wrought that got us thru so well. Not "if we were going to have a recession we would have had it by now" Harper.

[jacee]

I think it will be interesting ... refreshing even ... to see how a government functions that doesn't have the longtime 'connections' and obligations to business/industry that the Libs and Cons have both developed over the years.

There was a time before Confederation when the colonial governments were all that existed. The rebellions of 1837-38 changed that and a new political party emerged - the 'Grits' - Liberals - who then claimed to represent Canadians and opposed the ruling Tory fealty to British colonial domination - really just rape of Canada's resources for the benefit of the monarch and British aristocracy.

The Tories still represent rape-for-profit of Canada's natural resources by foreign entities, while the Liberals have evolved into the enablers who support local business in getting a piece of the pie.

There never has been a political party that put ordinary Canadians first.

It would be refreshing to see a political party that defined themselves first in terms of what Canadians need, and then entertained business/industry proposals of how they can contribute to that.

It makes sense especially for the coming era when the majority of Canadians will be seniors. Neither the Libs nor Cons have made any preparations for this - they continued to reduce corporate taxes and those for the wealthy when they should have been putting money aside for the coming, and very predictable, demographic.

I think Canadians are ready for a break from the past and a fresh, uniquely Canadian approach.

Edited May 29, 2012 by jacee

[Canuckistani]

I think it will be interesting ... refreshing even ... to see how a government functions that doesn't have the longtime 'connections' and obligations to business/industry that the Libs and Cons have both developed over the years.

There was a time before Confederation when the colonial governments were all that existed. The rebellions of 1837-38 changed that and a new political party emerged - the 'Grits' - Liberals - who then claimed to represent Canadians and opposed the ruling Tory fealty to British colonial domination - really just rape of Canada's resources for the benefit of the monarch and British aristocracy.

The Tories still represent rape-for-profit of Canada's natural resources by foreign entities, while the Liberals have evolved into the enablers who support local business is getting a piece of the pie.

There never has been a political party that put ordinary people first.

It would be refreshing to see a political party that defined themselves first in terms of what Canadians need, and then entertained business/industry proposals of how they can contribute to that.

It makes sense especially for the coming era when the majority of Canadians will be seniors. Neither the Libs nor Cons have made any preparations for this - they continued to reduce corporate taxes and those for the wealthy when they should have been putting money aside for the coming, and very predictable, demographic.

I think Canadians are ready for a break from the past and a fresh, uniquely Canadian approach.

I wouldn't get too confident about that. All govts play footsie with somebody. What we've seen in BC with swings back and forth between the NDP and the Liberals (liberal conservative alliance) is a swing back and forth with each rewarding their base. We're about to swing back to the NDP, and I'll be voting for them, but I don't expect it all to be roses either. The NDP usually loots the treasury to reward their buddies, while the Libs cut taxes (ie reduce the treasury), give sweetheart deals to their base and gouge what they can out of the low income groups. What we need is somebody like Tommy Douglas, who had a heart but also knew the value of a dollar. Heck even Robert Stanfield would do. Don't we have the technology yet to clone those guys?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Some of the journalist think that by getting all the nasty litle things Harper wants done out of the way before the election that voters will FORGET all the nasty things he's done. I don't agree. Voters who are going lose their OAS for 2 years and EI and pensions and jobs don't forget, they get even at the voting booths and now with CP which has workers across Canada, the Tories may lose some of its supporters out West.

We'll see. It's good to see historical change. At least people are thinking about the issues and being exposed enough to see how our government is holding hands with corporate interests and spitting on the interests of the average canadian at this point in time.

There is a lot of money in corporate lobbying to help sway opinions through mainstream media. The conservatives have that money on their side. That is why they are attacking the only power the average Canadian has, labour rights.

[mentalfloss]

What we need is somebody like Tommy Douglas, who had a heart but also knew the value of a dollar.

From a federal perspective I think Mulcair is actually pretty well balanced on the economy and social issues.

[madmax]

Dion and iggy both polled better then harper at one time, but when the election comes and people start to pay attention, harper will win hands down. Canadians are not stupid to give angry tom the keys to the bank.And does anyone really think the NDP or the libs would have done a better job at bringing us thru this mess in the last few years, then harper? I don't think so.

Harper was oblivous to events surrounding him and once hit with the cold hard economic facts, ignored everything. Had he been given free reign for his idealogical drive, there is little doubt he would have lead the country into the same Republican mess south of the border.

I don't think Harpers brought us through anything, he has just been along for the ride.

It is the highest deficit in Canadian History.

The Government spends like a drunken sailor on things it wants and doesn't need.

[Fletch 27]

Wasnt it a "spend the cash or me and my friends in the NDP" will bring down parliament? You cant have it both ways... Excuse me... the Libs and dippers think they can...

Harper was oblivous to events surrounding him and once hit with the cold hard economic facts, ignored everything. Had he been given free reign for his idealogical drive, there is little doubt he would have lead the country into the same Republican mess south of the border.

I don't think Harpers brought us through anything, he has just been along for the ride.

It is the highest deficit in Canadian History.

The Government spends like a drunken sailor on things it wants and doesn't need.

[madmax]

Wasnt it a "spend the cash or me and my friends in the NDP" will bring down parliament? You cant have it both ways... Excuse me... the Libs and dippers think they can...

Sorry but the its the Conservatives and Conservative Budgets.

Excessive Spending, Combined with Tax Cuts and revenue reductions = DEFICIT.

Conservatives history is to run up the debt.. its in their blood.

Edited May 31, 2012 by madmax

[Fletch 27]

I don't need to bother with you. You seem to have no grasp of time, history nor reality.. Go back to reading "mein kampf". I mean really... How old are you....

Sorry but the its the Conservatives and Conservative Budgets.

Excessive Spending, Combined with Tax Cuts and revenue reductions = DEFICIT.

Conservatives history is to run up the debt.. its in their blood.

[waldo]

Sorry but the its the Conservatives and Conservative Budgets.

Excessive Spending, Combined with Tax Cuts and revenue reductions = DEFICIT.

Conservatives history is to run up the debt.. its in their blood.

I don't need to bother with you. You seem to have no grasp of time, history nor reality.. Go back to reading "mein kampf". I mean really... How old are you....

clearly, Conservatives & Deficits/Debt go, 'hand in hand'! Perhaps MLW member, 'Fletch 27' might care to comment on the following:

Canadian surplus/deficit history

:

[Fletch 27]

Omg.. Really? You need a history lesson on the global recession?

clearly, Conservatives & Deficits/Debt go, 'hand in hand'! Perhaps MLW member, 'Fletch 27' might care to comment on the following: