F-35 Purchase

[punked]

Punked, I would never say anything as dumb as that! Why would I suggest hitting ourselves over the head with a hammer?

To make ends meet, I recently took a part time job in a call centre. I sit in a cube farm all day and call businesses, asking for their help with various charity events.

After doing this for just over a month, I am scared witless for the Ontario economy!

The number of businesses that have gone under, are going under or are hanging on by their fingernails is unbelievable! Ontario is in bad shape. Worst are the ones having anything to do with manufacturing but the spinoff businesses are in the same boat, right down to body shops and service centres.

Some of the conversations I have had might even make YOU cry, Punked! These are not wicked, rich capitalists going bankrupt just to be pricks to their employees.These are guys who in some cases have run their family business for 30 years, only to see it shriveling up and dying.

One older gentleman today said he has not seen it this bad since the depression during Bob Rae's provincial term. Worse yet, things seem to be getting worse and not better.

I think this would merit a thread of its own in the provincial section. Several small factory owners told me that the cost of electricity is killing them. Their cost has more than doubled since McGuinty took over and also just keeps getting worse. They are already investigating leaving Ontario or just shutting down completely.

I don't get much time during a call to talk about these things and of course it's never a good idea to talk politics during a charity call but this is what I have been gleaning and as I said already, it's a scary window on the province's economy!

Raising corporate taxes in this environment frankly seems to be a suicidal move.

Yeah Yeah Yeah. Know who you remind of? A friend I have in Spain. I called him 3 years ago and he started to talk to me all about Spainish politics. He kept saying "Spain is hurting, Spain has high unemployment and so on." He kept telling me "it would all be better once they elected the Conservatives". So he went out and voted for them. Guess what he is telling me now? It is all worse then it was before.

Stop trying to make complex issues into simple ones. It is bad for our country.

[waldo]

apparently... there's a fair number of "production" F-35s sitting on the U.S. Elgin flight training tarmac... with eager beaver U.S. military 'flight students' just clamoring for a chance to get into them. Apparently, they can't get a safety rating for the F-35s; one sufficient to allow them to be flown.

and now along comes raised South Korean concerns over forced simulator level evaluation of the F-35... simulator only - oh my? Is there actually an F-35 that can get off the ground?

Controversy erupts over simulation test of F-35 in fighter jet purchase

A plan to conduct performance tests of Lockheed Martin's F-35 using simulators, not an actual test flight by a South Korean pilot, has stirred up controversy here as Seoul prepares to buy an advanced fleet of stealth fighters.

Boeing's F-15 SE, Lockheed's F-35 and EADS Eurofighter are competing to win a huge deal worth upward of 10 trillion won (US$8.5 billion) to sell 60 combat fighters to South Korea, which will choose a supplier in October.

On-site performance tests will be held in June for the F-35, in August for the F-15 SE and in September for the Eurofighter, according to officials at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), South Korea's state arms procurement agency, on Thursday.

While Boeing and EADS agreed to carry out performance tests through actual flights with a Korean pilot on board, Lockheed refused to do so, saying the radar-evading warplane is not in service and still under development.

The flight-test schedule of the single-seat F-35 has been delayed, raising concerns over rising costs and that the aircraft may not be available until 2020.

"Because the F-35 is now under development, only F-35 pilots can fly it," a DAPA official said.

Instead, the DAPA asked Lockheed to conduct performance tests with simulators and a Korean pilot on board a different fighter jet and tracking the F-35, the official said.

[Wild Bill]

Yeah Yeah Yeah. Know who you remind of? A friend I have in Spain. I called him 3 years ago and he started to talk to me all about Spainish politics. He kept saying "Spain is hurting, Spain has high unemployment and so on." He kept telling me "it would all be better once they elected the Conservatives". So he went out and voted for them. Guess what he is telling me now? It is all worse then it was before.

Stop trying to make complex issues into simple ones. It is bad for our country.

Say what you like, but what I hear is real. Ontario business is hurting badly. You suggested raising corporate taxes, which would kill them even faster.

I am not giving an academic opinion. I am talking to literally hundreds of them every week!

Perhaps you are in a better position to know what is happening. Or do you merely read a few labour pamphlets?

This is as simple and as obvious as the sun rising in the east.

I cannot help but wonder if there is more to why you propose such a thing...

Edited June 9, 2012 by Wild Bill

[cybercoma]

I'm surprised nobody's talking about the Conservatives just blowing off US concerns over fake Chinese parts being discovered.

A 14-month U.S. Congressional investigation uncovered 1,800 cases of counterfeit electronic components for American military equipment, in total involving over one million bogus parts.

Investigators discovered fake electronic components in all kinds of military equipment, including: targeting systems for helicopter-launched hellfire missiles; instrument panels of military cargo planes; mission computers for interceptor rockets and in crucial ice-detection sensors for naval patrol aircraft.

[eyeball]

I'm surprised nobody's talking about the Conservatives just blowing off US concerns over fake Chinese parts being discovered.

They're too busy concentrating on making heads explode, your's amongst them I suspect.

[cybercoma]

They're too busy concentrating on making heads explode, your's amongst them I suspect.

When they go on ad nauseum about minutiae my head doesn't explode, I just gloss over the smokescreen. I'm more concerned with the government and politics here than I am with what kind of lubricant they put on the landing gear of a jet.

[waldo]

I'm surprised nobody's talking about the Conservatives just blowing off US concerns over fake Chinese parts being discovered.

Julian Fantino - Harper Conservative Associate Defence Minister: "What, me worry?"

Rona Ambrose - Harper Conservative Public Works Minister: Refused Comment

why... apparently... "Canada buys a majority of its military equipment, spare parts and other gear from the same American defence contractors used by the U.S. military, many of which are cited in the U.S. Congressional investigation".

[cybercoma]

I'm telling you right now, the Conservatives are being "greased" by these contractors.

[GostHacked]

More on the chinese parts in US military kit.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/06/11/pol-weston-china-military-components.html

The Canadian government is ignoring U.S. warnings that a flood of bogus military parts from China has been discovered in American-made fighter jets, transport planes, missiles and other weapons, potentially putting the lives of Armed Forces personnel at risk.

A 14-month U.S. Congressional investigation uncovered 1,800 cases of counterfeit electronic components for American military equipment, in total involving over one million bogus parts.

Investigators discovered fake electronic components in all kinds of military equipment, including: targeting systems for helicopter-launched hellfire missiles; instrument panels of military cargo planes; mission computers for interceptor rockets and in crucial ice-detection sensors for naval patrol aircraft.

I would like the F-35s to be given a complete inspection to find out if they do in fact have some of these compromised chips. But that is what you get for outsourcing your high-tech stuff, especially military hardware.

[Smallc]

I'm telling you right now, the Conservatives are being "greased" by these contractors.

And since you're telling us that, it must mean you can furnish proof.

[madmax]

And since you're telling us that, it must mean you can furnish proof.

I prefer the government is getting hosed and like it. Greased would assume some competence combined with a devious procurement.

[nimiru]

Do you actually believe peacekeeping works?

Canada needs replacement jets, thats not the question, the question is which one.

Like hell we need them. We had a great tradition of peace keeping and the present gov. seems hell bent on ruining that. We don't have the resources to be a factor in any major conflicts. Prime Minister Pearson set us on the right track many years ago and we seem to have lost our way in recent years. We were once looked up to throughout the world for our efforts in the peace keeping role we were involved in and we should get back to this. We only have to look south of the border to how the US is spreading peace and freedom around the globe to see that it doesn't wash to know that we don't need to have any part of it. We would be better off spending our tax dollars protecting our northern areas from environmental problems that may be coming from the opening of the arctic water ways than sticking our noses into areas we traditionally kept out of.

[cybercoma]

And since you're telling us that, it must mean you can furnish proof.

Let's call it a hunch.

[Topaz]

I'm not sure if the Tories will see any F-35 with all the problems the US is having now with counterfeit parts from China but that 75 mil per plane for Canada, is low, I've read that the engine alone is 20 million per plane and the jet was 116 mill per and whatever the US is paying for it themselves other countries have to pay more by their law. http://www.globalnews.ca/public+will+see+f-35+cost+estimates+after+independent+analysis+ambrose/6442659646/story.html

[Smallc]

Let's call it a hunch.

Then call it that.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not sure if the Tories will see any F-35 with all the problems the US is having now with counterfeit parts from China....

Better go check your CC-177's for counterfeit parts! They may fly to China all by themselves.

[DogOnPorch]

Better go check your CC-177's for counterfeit parts! They may fly to China all by themselves.

That's what I hear. Somebody on CBC was suggesting we take them apart to check and see.

[Signals.Cpl]

Like hell we need them. We had a great tradition of peace keeping and the present gov. seems hell bent on ruining that. We don't have the resources to be a factor in any major conflicts. Prime Minister Pearson set us on the right track many years ago and we seem to have lost our way in recent years. We were once looked up to throughout the world for our efforts in the peace keeping role we were involved in and we should get back to this.

bs...nothing but bs.

[Army Guy]

Like hell we need them.

Your right we have boxes and boxes of paper airplanes we could use in an emergency....

We had a great tradition of peace keeping and the present gov. seems hell bent on ruining that.

I'd also like to piont out we have that Canada has a longer Military tradition of fighting conflicts than it has ever spent on Peacekeeping and fromm our piont of veiw YOU seem to be ruining that.

We don't have the resources to be a factor in any major conflicts.

Nobody is talking about being a major factor, just living up to our present commitments and treaities....As a G-8 nation that should be well within our mandate....

Prime Minister Pearson set us on the right track many years ago and we seem to have lost our way in recent years. We were once looked up to throughout the world for our efforts in the peace keeping role we were involved in and we should get back to this.

Before you get down and pray to the peacekeeping gods, you should do a little research on the topic, peacekeeping does not look at all what Mr Pearson designed it for...it's rather a slap in the face to him and the troops that are forced to take part in it.

We only have to look south of the border to how the US is spreading peace and freedom around the globe to see that it doesn't wash to know that we don't need to have any part of it.

Another great Canadian past time, when not talking about the old days of peacekeeping "back in 74 when we passed that whole truck of blankets out"....we fall back on the stead fast position of slamming uncle sam and his merry band of men....

We would be better off spending our tax dollars protecting our northern areas from environmental problems that may be coming from the opening of the arctic water ways than sticking our noses into areas we traditionally kept out of.

Thats because we are the only country that deserves the freedom we live with, and the rest of the world well screw them....it is after all our tax dollars...

[cybercoma]

CPC late on independently-verified price estimates that they promised to have in 60 days.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/06/13/pol-cp-f-35-ambrose-mackay-late-cost-figures.html

Even though Ambrose wouldn't commit to a timeline, indications are it will likely be the fall when a full analysis of Canada's participation in the troubled program is expected to be final.

What a waste of time and money. The PBO's numbers were already independently verified and confirmed by 3 different groups. Now Ambrose says she won't release the numbers until they are "right."

[nimiru]

Your right we have boxes and boxes of paper airplanes we could use in an emergency....

I'd also like to piont out we have that Canada has a longer Military tradition of fighting conflicts than it has ever spent on Peacekeeping and fromm our piont of veiw YOU seem to be ruining that.

Nobody is talking about being a major factor, just living up to our present commitments and treaities....As a G-8 nation that should be well within our mandate....

Before you get down and pray to the peacekeeping gods, you should do a little research on the topic, peacekeeping does not look at all what Mr Pearson designed it for...it's rather a slap in the face to him and the troops that are forced to take part in it.

Another great Canadian past time, when not talking about the old days of peacekeeping "back in 74 when we passed that whole truck of blankets out"....we fall back on the stead fast position of slamming uncle sam and his merry band of men....

Thats because we are the only country that deserves the freedom we live with, and the rest of the world well screw them....it is after all our tax dollars...

[Argus]

CPC late on independently-verified price estimates that they promised to have in 60 days.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/06/13/pol-cp-f-35-ambrose-mackay-late-cost-figures.html

What a waste of time and money. The PBO's numbers were already independently verified and confirmed by 3 different groups. Now Ambrose says she won't release the numbers until they are "right."

This topic is over 160 pages. Has anyone yet been able to come up with a reasonable proposal to buy some other aircraft? That is, an aircraft which would be significantly cheaper and isn't already bordering on obsolescence?

[Guest Manny]

This topic is over 160 pages. Has anyone yet been able to come up with a reasonable proposal to buy some other aircraft? That is, an aircraft which would be significantly cheaper and isn't already bordering on obsolescence?

If someone here can do that, they should take up a job with the Minister. Heck, maybe they should BE the minister.

[waldo]

That is, an aircraft which would be significantly cheaper and isn't already bordering on obsolescence?

assuming the JSFail program doesn't get cancelled, outright, by the U.S. Government, when's the JSFail F-35 available to Canada?... and what's the reference JSFail F-35 price at that point? Please be prepared to substantiate your stated availability date(s) & price... thanks in advance. Equally, what vapourware version of the JSFail F-35 should be the target reference?

CPC late on independently-verified price estimates that they promised to have in 60 days.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/06/13/pol-cp-f-35-ambrose-mackay-late-cost-figures.html

Edited June 13, 2012 by waldo

[nimiru]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have replacement planes I'm just not sure we need these ones. We shouldn't be trying to be in a role similar to the US as we haven't the resources to play that game. We are better suited to be the peace keepers we were once recognized as. Maybe we should worry more about protecting our northern shores as that seems to be a more immediate threat to us at the moment. Civil wars are a far different thing from the wars Canada has proudly served in, in the past, and requires a far different approach.