Well now, Ron Paul even agrees on the reason for 911!

[monty16]

I just finished going back to 2008 and reading over my identical twin brother's posts on this forum and lo and behold, he had it right on pretty well everything. As Ron Paul now admits and Ron Paul backers must agree, bombing them over there just makes them want to kill us over here. (Paraphrased) Or another way to put it would be 'the US had it Coming'. That's how my identical twin brother, USHADITCOMING, put it.

But then they went and banned my identical twin brother because the worthless Bush2 warmongering apologists just couldn't stand the truth. Mostly people like Shady who kept pushing it with the moderators because he was probably feeling challenged back then. If he wasn't he should have been, knowing the truth as we know it now. And ya know, all the same olds who had it wrong then are still getting it all wrong today! Flagwaving USBS ya know.

So how about that kids? Have people like Shady and a few others my identical twin brother mentioned have grown up a bit yet? Or is the truth still banned on this forum. Just in case, I'll smell ya all later. My twin brother told me this forum is a waste of time and not worthy of adult discussion and I'm pretty well in agreement with that by now.

[eyeball]

I've yet to be banned for pointing out the obvious. I was suspended once when I went a little over the top arguing about it but...I never did find out what happened to the other guy.

Maybe one day his twin brother will let us know.

[NWRS]

I bet these twins are really close, probably wear the same underwear.

[Moonlight Graham]

US foreign policy in the middle east is only part of the reason for 911, but the US did have it coming.

I wish absolute, tit-for-tat karma did exist in this world. Then we would have peace & a wonderful world because if anyone ever did anything negative to someone else they'd get it right back. But when you can get away with being an ass, why not be an ass?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[Guest American Woman]

US foreign policy in the middle east is only part of the reason for 911, but the US did have it coming.

I wish absolute, tit-for-tat karma did exist in this world. Then we would have peace & a wonderful world because if anyone ever did anything negative to someone else they'd get it right back.

Give me a break. If that were the case, there would be no world. The whole world 'has it coming.'

[Rick]

Give me a break. If that were the case, there would be no world. The whole world 'has it coming.'

Some more than others.

What's that saying, you keep sticking your nose in other people's business, sooner or later someone will bite it off.

And remember, even Goliath was felled by Davey...

[Moonlight Graham]

Give me a break. If that were the case, there would be no world. The whole world 'has it coming.'

Yes it's a matter of degree. But since WWII, and over the last 20 years especially, no other country has f'ed with other countries and their people to the degree that the US has, and it's not even close. On top of that, the US is (at the end of the day at least) a democracy, and US citizens cast votes in support of officials making these foreign policies, so US citizens are in part responsible.

3000 US civilians killed by Muslim extremists is as tragic as 3000 civilians killed anywhere in the world by US military or policy.

And yes, Canada does this and Canada does that, we're no saints. But if a man shoots 2 people in the face and another man shoots 50 people in the face, people will/should be concerned about both but they will/should be more concerned about the man who shot 50.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes it's a matter of degree. But since WWII, and over the last 20 years especially, no other country has f'ed with other countries and their people to the degree that the US has, and it's not even close.

I take it you're not real familiar with all that's been going on in the world. Not even close. I also didn't realize that apparently the last twenty years means more than the rest of time for some odd, inexplicable reason.

On top of that, the US is (at the end of the day at least) a democracy, and US citizens cast votes in support of officials making these foreign policies, so US citizens are in part responsible.

Newsflash. Not all citizens vote for the party in power and not all citizens, including the babies and children killed on 9-11 when "the U.S. had it coming," could vote. But yeah, they "had it coming."

3000 US civilians killed by Muslim extremists is as tragic as 3000 civilians killed anywhere in the world by US military or policy.

3000 US civilians targeted and killed is a different matter than 3000 civilians regretfully, accidently killed anywhere in the world. But here's the shocking part - it's no less tragic than the thousands killed BEFORE the past 20 years and it's no less tragic than the civilians who have been killed by Canadian troops - or your "commonwealth" leader, Great Britain, who you still share ties with. You might want to take a look at their record - and that includes "in the last 20 years."

And yes, Canada does this and Canada does that, we're no saints.

You got that right.

But if a man shoots 2 people in the face and another man shoots 50 people in the face, people will/should be concerned about both but they will/should be more concerned about the man who shot 50.

They should also be concerned about the man pretending not to shoot any as he pledges his support to the man who does - and shoots away himself. He should also be concerned about the man who gives the other man the means to do it. He should also be concerned about the man who is willingly living the good life because of the other man's deeds. He should also be concerned about the great friendship the two share. Because in your "tit for tat karma" world, Canada wouldn't be given the 'we're not as bad' pass that ya'll like to give yourselves. Not by a long shot.

One last thought. Canada's "one man" equals U.S. ten men - and I'd say your "2 people" is more of your attempt at moral equivocation than the reality of the situation. But do keep giving yourself a moral, holier-than-thou, 'we're not as bad' pat on the back. Whatever gets you through life.

And while you're at it - you might want to compare which countries have helped the most people, done the most good. Just a thought.

[Moonlight Graham]

AW, what country i'm from is irrelevant. I shouldn't have brought it up, but was just anticipating your argument.

My point is, the US had it coming. I'm not saying it was right, or innocent people deserved to be killed, but sooner or later they were going to be bit in the ass for their foreign policy.

Often Western militaries try to avoid civilian casualties, but then again other times they don't care. And they'll gladly take the risk to further all sorts of selfish interests, be it security, influence, economics, oil/resources, whatever.

I'm sure if other NATO countries had the chance to be the global hegemon they'd act similarly to the US, but that doesn't make it right.

It's also BS that just because some Americans get butt-chapped I then have to asterisks/defend every criticism I have of the US with the fact that my country has done some similar things on a smaller scale. No crap. I criticize them for it too. And I'll criticize the US all day long because they darn well deserve it, more so than any other western state because they cause more BS in this world than any other western state by legions. If you want to hear how great the US is and all the good they do then don't come on the US politics forum. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. This is the last time I'm responding to a "yah well Canada did something like that to".

The US had it coming. They got a small taste of their own medicine. Unfortunately a lot of Americans don't seem to have learned anything from it.

[msj]

[A bunch of really good stuff]

I, too, am tired of all the pedantic asterisks demanded by AW, BC_2004 and others like them.

[Guest American Woman]

I, too, am tired of all the pedantic asterisks demanded by AW, BC_2004 and others like them.

Good. It gives you a taste of how tired we are of all the pedantic 'the U.S. is evil, we're not as bad, so we'll just ignore what our country does as we rant about the U.S.'posts by so many here.

[sharkman]

Yes it's a matter of degree. But since WWII, and over the last 20 years especially, no other country has f'ed with other countries and their people to the degree that the US has, and it's not even close. On top of that, the US is (at the end of the day at least) a democracy, and US citizens cast votes in support of officials making these foreign policies, so US citizens are in part responsible.

3000 US civilians killed by Muslim extremists is as tragic as 3000 civilians killed anywhere in the world by US military or policy.

And yes, Canada does this and Canada does that, we're no saints. But if a man shoots 2 people in the face and another man shoots 50 people in the face, people will/should be concerned about both but they will/should be more concerned about the man who shot 50.

Oh come on, this is a load of tripe. Trying to say that the US had it coming is like blaming the woman for her rape because she dressed provocatively. It doesn't amount to guilt.

You obviously have no clue on what has gone on in the world since WWII so there is no point in even trying to prove anything to you. Carry on.

Edited January 1, 2012 by sharkman

[Shady]

Oh come on, this is a load of tripe. Trying to say that the US had it coming is like blaming the woman for her rape because she dressed provocatively.

You're exactly right. It's no different thatn blaming a woman for dressing or acting in a certain way. Ironically, it's these same people that in those specific instances, always tell us how wrong it is to blame the victim.

I see that the new year's brought in loads of new hypocrisy for many around here.

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh come on, this is a load of tripe. Trying to say that the US had it coming is like blaming the woman for her rape because she dressed provocatively.

No, actually it isn't anything like that at all. It's more like punching a man's daughter and being surprised you get a punch back.

You obviously have no clue on what has gone on in the world since WWII so there is no point in even trying to prove anything to you. Carry on.

Go ahead, name a country since WWII that has messed with more countries & people in foreign countries in a negative way than the US. Maybe the USSR or recent wars in the DRC (though much of that is caused by non-state actors) could give them a run. I'll bet the Washington Consensus/SAP's & the Bretton Woods institutions have alone done more than just about every other country on earth.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[Topaz]

Let's face it, since the killing of JFK and his brother RK, the US has gone down hill, along with the attempted killing of Reagan. What a violent country, to kill their own. Some have said that 9/11 was an inside job and I also think it was and GW and others were told about the possibility of planes running into buildings and they ignored it and so as president he didn't do his duty to protect US citizens, but did they ignore it to have the reason to go into Afghanistan, when the Taliban and the US had different thoughts on oil? Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya were all about oil and the oil companies. Growing up I also had great respect for the US, but the people who have been in leadership have the past 30 years, have made the US into a war mongering state and so, it is any wonder other nations want to take it down? Its really sad.

[bush_cheney2004]

My point is, the US had it coming. I'm not saying it was right.....

The US had it coming. They got a small taste of their own medicine. Unfortunately a lot of Americans don't seem to have learned anything from it.

Logically then...Canada has it coming too...and is long overdue for a bloody nose, eh?

[msj]

Logically then...Canada has it coming too...and is long overdue for a bloody nose, eh?

Yes, a Cessna flown into the CN Tower sounds about right.

Hope Muslim extremists don't slip though the border from the US though.....

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, a Cessna flown into the CN Tower sounds about right.

Sinnce you must define such things in American terms, the Cessna will do. I was thinking more of something manufactured by Bombardier (e.g. Q400).

Hope Muslim extremists don't slip though the border from the US though.....

Serbs are mostly Orthodox Christian, but any cause will do. Canadian "blowback" is so cute!

[msj]

Sinnce you must define such things in American terms, the Cessna will do. I was thinking more of something manufactured by Bombardier (e.g. Q400).

Too big.

Serbs are mostly Orthodox Christian, but any cause will do. Canadian "blowback" is so cute!

But we all know that Christians aren't terrorists.

[bush_cheney2004]

Too big.

Not for its market. Try a Learjet instead.

But we all know that Christians aren't terrorists.

Yep...that's why Canada "has it coming".

[sharkman]

No, actually it isn't anything like that at all. It's more like punching a man's daughter and being surprised you get a punch back.

Go ahead, name a country since WWII that has messed with more countries & people in foreign countries in a negative way than the US. Maybe the USSR or recent wars in the DRC (though much of that is caused by non-state actors) could give them a run. I'll bet the Washington Consensus/SAP's & the Bretton Woods institutions have alone done more than just about every other country on earth.

Your perspective is simply what the top dog always faces. Blaming them, however, for the 9/11 attacks shows a shallow analysis. They were attacked by rabid fanatics, and you are saying that the whackjobs were justified in believing that the US is the Great Satan which allows sinful things like women driving cars and gays not getting locked up.

What you fail to see is that there has always been zealot extremists who will attack whomever, whenever and however. Siding with them just because you don't like who the top dog is what you are doing.

Stalin's Russia strategized the hunting and calculated murder of over 10 million or even more. You can't ignore what Hitler did by simply trying to exlude him with a time frame. His millions murdered don't count? How many were murdered in Africa in modern times? How many in China, North Korea and Viet Nam before the US ever got there?

The US has never carried out genocide or the hunting and murder of civilians for whatever reason. To Compare them to the worst of history is laughable, and you should really know better. They have spread wealth, peace and freedom. They are not perfect, but your smear really reflects poorly on you.

[Guest American Woman]

Your perspective is simply what the top dog always faces. Blaming them, however, for the 9/11 attacks shows a shallow analysis. They were attacked by rabid fanatics, and you are saying that the whackjobs were justified in believing that the US is the Great Satan which allows sinful things like women driving cars and gays not getting locked up.

Exactly. That's what it's all about: our culture - not the fact that people were killed in South America decades ago when Reagan was president, yet that keeps coming up as one of the justifications as to why we were attacked. These fanatics don't even care about the Muslim moderates who are killed, though they'll use their deaths politically - as they kill the very population whose deaths the "US had it coming" ilk say upset them to the point of targeting and purposely killing innocent civilians, including babies/toddlers/children and many people who didn't vote for politicians in power (since that seems to be what makes it 'our fault'). Of course these same fanatics are killing all over the world, but apparently it's all because of our politics. We don't hear that Britain had it coming, Spain had it coming, etc.

What you fail to see is that there has always been zealot extremists who will attack whomever, whenever and however. Siding with them just because you don't like who the top dog is what you are doing.

Would they ever like the "top dog?" Whoever it was? It seems odd that there is so much criticism of the U.S. when Britain, the head of your commonwealth, is absolutely no different. And of course these same people apparently forget all of the civilians who have been killed due to Canada's military action. Because, of course, the U.S. is so much worse. Since Canada is smaller and can't do "equal" damage, it's not as bad - even though its given it's all. Seems to me the "giving its all" factor doesn't give Canada any moral superiority, which is what this ilk likes to believe.

But back to "the top dog;" I always say 'be careful what you wish for, because you might get it.' What country being "the top dog" would have done better - would have made the world a better place than it is now? I've brought up the good that the U.S. has done, but no response to that, of course. It's all about the bad, as if that's all there is.

Stalin's Russia strategized the hunting and calculated murder of over 10 million or even more. You can't ignore what Hitler did by simply trying to exlude him with a time frame.

But by excluding him with a time frame, Canada's killing civilians in war can be excluded. But of course when Canada goes to war, it's all good - and in fact, the U.S. is criticized for wanting to stay out of it. Furthermore, if it's a UN sanctioned war, evidently the civilian deaths aren't 'as bad.'

His millions murdered don't count? How many were murdered in Africa in modern times? How many in China, North Korea and Viet Nam before the US ever got there?

Exactly. The vision is so narrow and biased as to be ludicrous.

The US has never carried out genocide or the hunting and murder of civilians for whatever reason. To Compare them to the worst of history is laughable, and you should really know better. They have spread wealth, peace and freedom. They are not perfect, but your smear really reflects poorly on you.

Again, exactly - but it's beyond laughable, it's ignorant, for so many reasons.

Very true, the U.S. is not perfect, but Canada has never done anything to distance itself from the U.S. and has, in fact, been right there with us. And that includes Iraq. Denial doesn't erase reality.

[GostHacked]

It's the fault of the American foreign policy over the past three or four decades. When you want to police the world, you are going to get some push back. When you fund operations to destabilize other countries or to fund operations and group to combat foreign armies in other lands, you are going to get blowback.

The CIA is the largest cause of angst among foreign nations. Iran caught 14 or so CIA agents within Iran. Not clear what their intentions were, but I can tell you with 100% certainty, that they were not there to create diplomatic ties, or sent in to negotiate with anyone. They were there for two things, intelligence, and targets.

You must understand what the CIA does and what their role is in all of this is.

[Guest Peeves]

US foreign policy in the middle east is only part of the reason for 911, but the US did have it coming.

I wish absolute, tit-for-tat karma did exist in this world. Then we would have peace & a wonderful world because if anyone ever did anything negative to someone else they'd get it right back. But when you can get away with being an ass, why not be an ass?

There never will be ANY occasion where non combatants are specifically acceptable targets.

Collateral civilian deaths may happen in wars, but to target non combatants is totally unacceptable and anyone with a conscience would agree.

The Arabs being murdered in Syria, and formerly in other Arab (Arab Spring)countries in a desire for (Western) human rights are not due to anything but the despotic governments they suffer under.

They have one thing in common.

That reality was not brought on by the West, the USA, Israel, or even by Bush or Obama.

[prairiechickin]

There never will be ANY occasion where non combatants are specifically acceptable targets.

Collateral civilian deaths may happen in wars, but to target non combatants is totally unacceptable and anyone with a conscience would agree.

I think I have a conscience, and I think I could make an argument for area bombing in Germany during World War Two, and for dropping the atomic bombs on Japanese cities. Area bombing was likely unnecessary for the last year of the war, but prior to that it was one of the few means the Allies had to strike back at the heart of Germany. Many of those non-combatants were also factory workers fueling the German war machine, and the Allies success at wiping cities off the map meant the Germans had to employ a lot of resources to defend the Fatherland -- resources that could have been used to tip the scales on the Eastern Front. As for Japan, they were prepared to fight to the death on their own turf and it would have cost hundreds of thousands of Allied lives to actually invade. Better to wipe out a couple of cities and force capitulation than spend the next two years in hand to hand combat.