Reflection on Pearl Harbor Day

[Guest Derek L]

Let's say Hitler had no plans to invade Russia and devoted 100% of his power towards taking down the UK. He could have done it.

Post Dunkirk their British Army was in horrible shape.

No, not unless the army was going to swim across the Channel.

[Michael Hardner]

We would be doing our morning exercises at the Yamamoto factory, counting in Japanese.

Just like they only speak English in Japan and Germany ?

[Wilber]

I didn't know this. Could this perhaps because Harris sent them to much more dangerous parts of Germany as well.

For one thing, the 8th Airforce numbers include all its divisions, bombers, fighters, fighter bombers etc. No doubt the bomber loss rates were higher than the other components.

I don't think it was due to the Americans choosing softer targets. An American crew finished a tour of missions and they either went home or to less dangerous activities. Bomber Command crews got some leave, then went back again and sometimes again if they survived. During the worst parts of the bomber campaign, a Bomber Command crew had about a 10% chance of completing its first tour.

In general, the Americans were more humane toward their crews and had a much better understanding of combat fatigue. When a Bomber Command crew member reached the end of their tether and couldn't continue, they were often ostracized and accused of "lack of moral fiber". Google the term with reference to Bomber Command, it will really piss you off.

[GostHacked]

DOP: What about the Luftwaffe?

GH: The Luft-whata???

DOP: The German Air Force.

GH: I don't understand.

DOP: Bomber Command lost aircraft to the...lol...Luftwhata right up to the end of the war. The Germans fought back. How do you explain that??

GH: A US plot.

DOP: A...lol...US plot????

GH: Yes. Alex Jones told me so. Americans flying 'jet aircraft' shot down their own and British bombers in order to boost public support for the war back home.

DOP: O.....K....

GH: FDR was really Hitler in disguise. Barbarossa never happened. Pearl Harbor is actually in Florida and the Battle of Britain was faked on a studio back lot by Rupert Murdoch and Steven Spielberg!

DOP: ~sigh~

I am flattered you spent that much time making up this great post just to try and ridicule me or something. But if this makes you feel like the bigger man, then go for it.

[DogOnPorch]

I am flattered you spent that much time making up this great post just to try and ridicule me or something. But if this makes you feel like the bigger man, then go for it.

Five minutes...if that. Enjoy.

[DogOnPorch]

Urban myth. It was much more dangerous to be in Bomber Command than the Eighth Airforce.

Out of 125,000 crew members in Bomber Command, 55,573 were killed (over 10,000 of them Canadians), 8403 wounded and 9838 made prisoner.

A 44.4% death rate.

In contrast. Out of 350,000 8th Airforce crew members, 26,000 were killed and 23,000 made prisoner.

The big difference being, Bomber Command crews flew a lot more missions per crew than the 8th Airforce.

In fact, next to U Boats, Bomber Command had the highest casualty rate of any service on either side in the European war.

My statement was re: the might of the Luftwafffe...not the relative dangers of day or night bombing. Day time you faced 100s of FW 190s, Me 109s and Me 110s (etc). At night you might be hunted by a single radar equipped Ju-88.

[Wilber]

My statement was re: the might of the Luftwafffe...not the relative dangers of day or night bombing. Day time you faced 100s of FW 190s, Me 109s and Me 110s (etc). At night you might be hunted by a single radar equipped Ju-88.

r

Day bombers had the advantages of mutual support provided by a formation of its peers and fighter escort for all or part of its mission. Each night bomber was part of a stream, alone in the dark with no support at all.

[DogOnPorch]

r

Day bombers had the advantages of mutual support provided by a formation of its peers and fighter escort for all or part of its mission. Each night bomber was part of a stream, alone in the dark with no support at all.

lol...I'm pretty sure we're both up on this subject enough to teach a class.

[Guest Manny]

Nazis were defeated, but their ideology survives. Thrives, even...

[Guest Derek L]

Nazis were defeated, but their ideology survives. Thrives, even...

How so?

[Moonlight Graham]

jbg, I don't agree with most of the points in your OP, and your main assertion:

In short there would be self-flaggelation rather than defense of national interests.

I don't think "self-flagellation" is the right term. There would be a chunk of that for sure, but most of all nowadays there would be people asking questions. Why did this happen? What should our response be? Could we have prevented it? Should we go to war? If so, what does that mean, and what will it look like, and how much will it cost in blood and treasure?

These are VERY important questions to ask, and I'm glad societies ask them more these days, and citizens are more vigilant & critical about what is likely the most important decision any government will make: going to war.

You make it seem like a quick reactionary military response by the US is somehow sentimentally noble, and the same with your natural father enlisting in the military 3 days later (whom I assume did so voluntarily?). With all due respect to your father, if I enlisted in a war I would darn well take a bit of time to read up and know exactly the war is about, why it happened, if it's worth it, if i'm just being played as just another expendable political pawn in some stupid game etc.

Questioning government actions, especially in times of war, is in the national interest. The rah-rah-rah "let's go to war!!!" macho bullcrap belongs at football games, not in decisions of war & peace.

There was probably be an agonizing debate about even seeking a U.N. resolution condemning the attack.

With the US being attacked by another state? I doubt it.

If we went to war and some Japanese prisoner somewhere was humiliated, there would be cries of anguish in the New York Times.

Humiliated as in like Abu Ghraid? I would hope so.

The shocking brutality of Japanese torture techniques would have gone undocumented, or buried in back pages.

If it were done on US troops, I highly doubt that.

[Guest Manny]

How so?

Lots of the nazi technology, scientists, medical informations was taken by the United States. And their ideas about corporate and government collaborating on a national scale, to include not only business development but strategically, for militarization and national defence. And the extensive use of propaganda, controlling the message which was developed to the highest level at the time by nazi leaders like Josef Goebbels.

There can be no doubt that what the nazis did under Hitler in a few short years brought Germany to the forefront again as a superpower, from a time when they were practically on their knees. These were the methods that brought them to success. It wasn't just the technical, scientific and military innovations that were so astounding, it was the way the whole thing was run under one comprehensive system.

[Guest Manny]

... But of course, just to qualify what I said so that it does not appear I am admiring them, they lost sight of what matters more than anything else, to be a real success. They lost sight of the humanity. They made the human being into a voiceless drone worker with no individuality, no liberty. No soul. Never challenging the system, even when it was so wrong. That is why their defeat was truly necessary, and inevitable.

[Guest Derek L]

... But of course, just to qualify what I said so that it does not appear I am admiring them, they lost sight of what matters more than anything else, to be a real success. They lost sight of the humanity. They made the human being into a voiceless drone worker with no individuality, no liberty. No soul. Never challenging the system, even when it was so wrong. That is why their defeat was truly necessary, and inevitable.

Well that’s all well and good, but you’d suggested their ideology still survives today………Forgive me, but I’m perhaps a simple person that see’s things in black and white………Would you care to give some more specific examples of their ideology being still used today?

If one looks at the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth and the United States, they also ramped up their economies to that of a war footing, in response to Nazi Germany, in less time…..I disagree with your assertion, the Nazi ideology, when compared to US war production, paled drastically in comparison….In science, for example, the Nazis did lead in rocketry (To the post war benefit of the USSR & USA), but ultimately, US (and allied) scientists pioneered the splitting of the atom, with post war evidence showing the Germans years behind.

I don’t discount the post war victors benefited from some individual Nazi “ideology”, but ultimately, Nazi ideology as a whole was a failure…….Wouldn’t a more realistic assertion be that post-war ideologies cherry picked the limited successes of the Nazis and made it their own?

[msj]

The United States Congress, at the request of President Franklin Roosvelt, declared war the next day. We fought to win, as did Canada.

Imagine the same situation these days. There was probably be an agonizing debate about even seeking a U.N. resolution condemning the attack. There would be discussions about whether going to war would interfere with the "national aspirations of the Hawaiians", who are after all Oriental. There would be a debate about whether Pearl Harbor was "blowback" for English occupation of Australia and the suffering of the aboriginals. Or for the occupation by Portugal of Macao or Britain of Hong Kong. Or the activities of white traders trying to do business in Japan. There was be discussion of a "negotiated" solution.

Saw this quote on the twitter feed for @RealTimeWWII today:

US protesting British blockade of Germany: belligerents may not stop "legitimate shipping of neutral states"

Made me laugh at jbg's post above.

On December 8, 1939, Americans were more concerned with their "legitimate shipping" to Nazi Germany.

Would have been nice if there was an "agonizing" debate condemning Germany's (and the USSR's - don't forget) attack on Poland a few months earlier etc etc...

------------------

RealTimeeWWII: "Livetweeting the Second World War, as it happens on this date and time in 1939, and for 6 years to come."

It's pretty cool so check them out on twitter or facebook.

[dre]

Saw this quote on the twitter feed for @RealTimeWWII today:

Made me laugh at jbg's post above.

On December 8, 1939, Americans were more concerned with their "legitimate shipping" to Nazi Germany.

Would have been nice if there was an "agonizing" debate condemning Germany's (and the USSR's - don't forget) attack on Poland a few months earlier etc etc...

------------------

RealTimeeWWII: "Livetweeting the Second World War, as it happens on this date and time in 1939, and for 6 years to come."

It's pretty cool so check them out on twitter or facebook.

The whole OP is just bunk. Listen to some of this stuff...

There was probably be an agonizing debate about even seeking a U.N. resolution condemning the attack.

The UN, Nato, and various other ad-hock alliances go to war at the drop of a hat these days. In fact... the hat doesnt even have to drop. All you need is even the vaguest low-quality "intelligence" saying the hat MIGHT drop and we're bombing some random country.

In short there would be self-flaggelation rather than defense of national interests.

What I assume hes talking about here is the critism of these mis-adventures from within western countries. But that happens for the reasons i mentioned above. People dont trust the joke that western intelligence agencies have become, and they have a hard time supporting unprovoked wars on aggression, and the mixed signals soldiers get about how to conduct themselves in foreign land, from shitty civilian leadership.

[Guest Manny]

Well that’s all well and good, but you’d suggested their ideology still survives today………Forgive me, but I’m perhaps a simple person that see’s things in black and white………Would you care to give some more specific examples of their ideology being still used today?

Sure, no prolem. See my quote below:

Lots of the nazi technology, scientists, medical informations was taken by the United States. And their ideas about corporate and government collaborating on a national scale, to include not only business development but strategically, for militarization and national defence. And the extensive use of propaganda, controlling the message which was developed to the highest level at the time by nazi leaders like Josef Goebbels.

If one looks at the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth and the United States, they also ramped up their economies to that of a war footing, in response to Nazi Germany, in less time…..I disagree with your assertion, the Nazi ideology, when compared to US war production, paled drastically in comparison….In science, for example, the Nazis did lead in rocketry (To the post war benefit of the USSR & USA), but ultimately, US (and allied) scientists pioneered the splitting of the atom, with post war evidence showing the Germans years behind.

They ramped up in less time, coming from an economy that was already far stronger then Germany, who after the Versailess treaty were economically bankrupt, that's why I said they were "on their knees" in my previous post. You see, I covered all the bases already.

Actually the atom bomb technology was really started by Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_energy_project

but not completed due to the pressures of war and the fact their ideology suppressed contributions by important physicists, namely those who were jewish. THe manhattan project started years later, and once germany was defeated their scientific information was taken to the United States, as with the V2 rocket technology. So you see, had the Germans not come under such intense pressure they would have created the atomic bomb first, then the war would really have been over. It came down to attrition of resources, intellectual and material.

Wouldn’t a more realistic assertion be that post-war ideologies cherry picked the limited successes of the Nazis and made it their own?

Of course. Whatever works is preserved. And much of our system now is based on the same general principles that made Nazi Germany a success in so short a time. It wasn't just the military advances they made, which includes aviation, jet power, tank warfare, chemical warfare, Germans scientists and engineers were the best, it was the way the whole industry was organized into one movement with a unified vision, synchronized. That is how a small country was able to wield so much power. One thing that also contributed to their defeat, the chaos of war made it more difficult for leadership to keep it in order. Then different factions within the nazi system had no choice but to continue, under their own individual directions.

[The_Squid]

I liked your anecdote about the war jbg...

but your analysis was bullshit.

If someone bombs a naval base in the USA, you honestly believe that your country would seek a UN resolution before doing anything? Hogwash.

[Guest Derek L]

Sure, no prolem. See my quote below:

They ramped up in less time, coming from an economy that was already far stronger then Germany, who after the Versailess treaty were economically bankrupt, that's why I said they were "on their knees" in my previous post. You see, I covered all the bases already.

So what aspects were copied from the Nazi ideology by modern countries?

Actually the atom bomb technology was really started by Germany. http://en.wikipedia...._energy_project

but not completed due to the pressures of war and the fact their ideology suppressed contributions by important physicists, namely those who were jewish. THe manhattan project started years later, and once germany was defeated their scientific information was taken to the United States, as with the V2 rocket technology. So you see, had the Germans not come under such intense pressure they would have created the atomic bomb first, then the war would really have been over. It came down to attrition of resources, intellectual and material.

Who cares were the atom bomb started………what maters is who’s cities were nuked……..So you’re saying, another fail by Nazi “ideology”, in that they allowed their said “ideology” to restrict scientific progress………….Wouldn’t the US and USSR have done the opposite of “Nazi ideology”, in that they took segments from other “ideologies“…….in this case Nazi…….and incorporated it into their own?

How is this a demonstration of Nazi “ideology” thriving?

Of course. Whatever works is preserved. And much of our system now is based on the same general principles that made Nazi Germany a success in so short a time. It wasn't just the military advances they made, which includes aviation, jet power, tank warfare, chemical warfare, Germans scientists and engineers were the best, it was the way the whole industry was organized into one movement with a unified vision, synchronized. That is how a small country was able to wield so much power. One thing that also contributed to their defeat, the chaos of war made it more difficult for leadership to keep it in order. Then different factions within the nazi system had no choice but to continue, under their own individual directions.

Ok, outside of "the military advances they made, which includes aviation, jet power, tank warfare, chemical warfare", how can you demonstrate that "Germans scientists and engineers were the best, it was the way the whole industry was organized into one movement with a unified vision, synchronized" and suggest that Nazi ideology is thriving today? Where? Used by whom?

[Guest Manny]

So what aspects were copied from the Nazi ideology by modern countries?

All of the ones I already listed for you, twice now. And I gave you links, you can do your own research. Learn the history for yourself, ugly as it is.

Clearly, the innovations in research for the atomic bomb depended on German scientists.

Clearly, the US space program depended on Werner von Braun, right up to and including the Saturn 5 used to go to the moon.

Clearly, the jet engine...

Clearly, the chemists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#World_War_II

"After World War II, the Allies recovered German artillery shells containing the three German nerve agents of the day (tabun, sarin, and soman), prompting further research into nerve agents by all of the former Allies.

So you’re saying, another fail by Nazi “ideology”, in that they allowed their said “ideology” to restrict scientific progress………….Wouldn’t the US and USSR have done the opposite of “Nazi ideology”, in that they took segments from other “ideologies“…….in this case Nazi…….and incorporated it into their own?

How is this a demonstration of Nazi “ideology” thriving?

You are just being argumentative now, for no purpose. Don't twist what I said. I showed how they were successful, and also how they failed. I also said, what works is preserved, what doesn't is discarded. Why would anybody copy methods that don't work? That comment is just being silly.

Ok, outside of "the military advances they made, which includes aviation, jet power, tank warfare, chemical warfare", how can you demonstrate that "Germans scientists and engineers were the best

Here you go, this should be enough to demonstrate-

German military technology during World War II

Nazi Germany put much effort into developing weapons, particularly aircraft and tanks, during the war, which initially gave its armed forces an advantage over other countries, especially at the beginning of the war. New German military technology often placed allied commanders in a position of being unable to respond effectively.

Nazi ideology is thriving today? Where? Used by whom?

Those links already demonstrate it. Here is some more. Easy to show but I won't waste musch more time on this. My assertions are already proven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequences_of_Nazism

The new technologies, tactics, and ideologies introduced by Nazi Germany have resulted in major changes in the way nations conduct war, and have been the groundwork for many of the operations carried out today.

Operation Paperclip

To circumvent President Truman's anti-Nazi order, and the Allied Potsdam and Yalta agreements, the JIOA worked independently to create false employment and political biographies for the scientists. The JIOA also expunged from the public record the scientists' Nazi Party memberships and régime affiliations. Once "bleached" of their Nazism, the US Government granted the scientists security clearance to work in the United States.

Key figures:

Rocketry: Rudi Beichel, Magnus von Braun, Wernher von Braun, Walter Dornberger, Werner Dahm, Konrad Dannenberg, Kurt H. Debus, Ernst R. G. Eckert, Krafft Arnold Ehricke, Otto Hirschler, Hermann H. Kurzweg, Fritz Mueller, Gerhard Reisig, Georg Rickhey, Arthur Rudolph, Ernst Stuhlinger, Werner Rosinski, Eberhard Rees, Ludwig Roth, Georg von Tiesenhausen, and Bernhard Tessmann (see List of German rocket scientists in the US).

Aeronautics: Siegfried Knemeyer, Alexander Martin Lippisch, Hans von Ohain, Hans Multhopp, Kurt Tank

Medicine: Walter Schreiber, Kurt Blome, Hubertus Strughold, Hans Antmann (Human factors)[17]

Electronics: Hans Ziegler, Kurt Lehovec, Hans Hollmann, Johannes Plendl, Heinz Schlicke

Intelligence: Reinhard Gehlen

Hundreds more names are not included in the list. An unprecedented effort to "harvest" the intellectual resources of a defeated enemy. I don't know that such an effort was ever undertaken before or since, on such a scale. Those scientists and engineers must have been quite special, for people to try and find ways to circumvent the orders of the president, not to mention international law...

Edited December 10, 2011 by Manny

[Guest Derek L]

All of the ones I already listed for you, twice now. And I gave you links, you can do your own research. Learn the history for yourself, ugly as it is.

Clearly, the innovations in research for the atomic bomb depended on German scientists.

Clearly, the US space program depended on Werner von Braun, right up to and including the Saturn 5 used to go to the moon.

Clearly, the jet engine...

Clearly, the chemists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#World_War_II

"After World War II, the Allies recovered German artillery shells containing the three German nerve agents of the day (tabun, sarin, and soman), prompting further research into nerve agents by all of the former Allies.

You are just being argumentative now, for no purpose. Don't twist what I said. I showed how they were successful, and also how they failed. I also said, what works is preserved, what doesn't is discarded. Why would anybody copy methods that don't work? That comment is just being silly.

Here you go, this should be enough to demonstrate-

German military technology during World War II

Nazi Germany put much effort into developing weapons, particularly aircraft and tanks, during the war, which initially gave its armed forces an advantage over other countries, especially at the beginning of the war. New German military technology often placed allied commanders in a position of being unable to respond effectively.

Those links already demonstrate it. Here is some more. Easy to show but I won't waste musch more time on this. My assertions are already proven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequences_of_Nazism

The new technologies, tactics, and ideologies introduced by Nazi Germany have resulted in major changes in the way nations conduct war, and have been the groundwork for many of the operations carried out today.

Operation Paperclip

To circumvent President Truman's anti-Nazi order, and the Allied Potsdam and Yalta agreements, the JIOA worked independently to create false employment and political biographies for the scientists. The JIOA also expunged from the public record the scientists' Nazi Party memberships and régime affiliations. Once "bleached" of their Nazism, the US Government granted the scientists security clearance to work in the United States.

Key figures:

Rocketry: Rudi Beichel, Magnus von Braun, Wernher von Braun, Walter Dornberger, Werner Dahm, Konrad Dannenberg, Kurt H. Debus, Ernst R. G. Eckert, Krafft Arnold Ehricke, Otto Hirschler, Hermann H. Kurzweg, Fritz Mueller, Gerhard Reisig, Georg Rickhey, Arthur Rudolph, Ernst Stuhlinger, Werner Rosinski, Eberhard Rees, Ludwig Roth, Georg von Tiesenhausen, and Bernhard Tessmann (see List of German rocket scientists in the US).

Aeronautics: Siegfried Knemeyer, Alexander Martin Lippisch, Hans von Ohain, Hans Multhopp, Kurt Tank

Medicine: Walter Schreiber, Kurt Blome, Hubertus Strughold, Hans Antmann (Human factors)[17]

Electronics: Hans Ziegler, Kurt Lehovec, Hans Hollmann, Johannes Plendl, Heinz Schlicke

Intelligence: Reinhard Gehlen

Hundreds more names are not included in the list. An unprecedented effort to "harvest" the intellectual resources of a defeated enemy. I don't know that such an effort was ever undertaken before or since, on such a scale. Those scientists and engineers must have been quite special, for people to try and find ways to circumvent the orders of the president, not to mention international law...

Did Wernher von Braun adhere to “Nazi ideology”, or was he just a rocket scientist that was forced to join a political party?

Were/are all Germans, from 1933-1945 Nazis?

You suggest that individual leaps in technology made by Germans, under the Nazi regime, are evidence of a thriving ideology, but said ideology collapsed within twelve years, in spite of said technological advancements………….Then after said Nazi ideology collapsed, several competing ideologies, simply cherry picked individual advancements made under said Nazi regime

I fail to see how this demonstrates the Nazi ideology is thriving today……….I will go as far as to say individual Germans managed to achieve advancements in spite Nazi ideology……..

Other ideologies (Communism, Mercantilism, Feudalism, Capitalism etc ) were/are pronounced in any given society, at any given time, and all have seen new technologies “be born” under said ideologies…….Does this mean Feudalism is thriving today, since we still use aspects of the Magna Carta?

[Jack Weber]

Did Wernher von Braun adhere to “Nazi ideology”, or was he just a rocket scientist that was forced to join a political party?

Were/are all Germans, from 1933-1945 Nazis?

You suggest that individual leaps in technology made by Germans, under the Nazi regime, are evidence of a thriving ideology, but said ideology collapsed within twelve years, in spite of said technological advancements………….Then after said Nazi ideology collapsed, several competing ideologies, simply cherry picked individual advancements made under said Nazi regime

I fail to see how this demonstrates the Nazi ideology is thriving today……….I will go as far as to say individual Germans managed to achieve advancements in spite Nazi ideology……..

Other ideologies (Communism, Mercantilism, Feudalism, Capitalism etc ) were/are pronounced in any given society, at any given time, and all have seen new technologies “be born” under said ideologies…….Does this mean Feudalism is thriving today, since we still use aspects of the Magna Carta?

Example...

Erwin Rommel was a German General who was not necessarily a NAZI...

[Guest Derek L]

Example...

Erwin Rommel was a German General who was not necessarily a NAZI...

Exactly and my younger brother, who is member of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, has read and studied several of Heinz Guderian's books and implementation of tactics and “drives to work” in a modern Panzer.......I wouldn't call him a Nazi though

[Jack Weber]

Exactly and my younger brother, who is member of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, has read and studied several of Heinz Guderian's books and implementation of tactics and drives to work in a modern Panzer.......I wouldn't call him a Nazi though

The Guderian Papers and The Rommel Papers are extremely interesting...

Most of the German High Command were NOT NAZI's...They were German patriots,hence the plot to kill Hitler that Rommel was implicated in.

The same could easily be said of Robert E. Lee and the Confederacy...

Edited December 10, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Wilber]

Clearly not the jet engine. Germany had the first jet powered aircraft but the first modern jet engine to run was Frank Whittle's design.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Wilber