Reflection on Pearl Harbor Day

[jbg]

While December 7, has drawn to a close, I waited until after my Wednesday night tennis to post my thoughts on this 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

On this day in 1941, my stepfather, already in the military, was ending a leave that day. He was having lunch at Lindy's, a New York restaurant, with his family and was scheduled to return to service that night. While eating, an announcement came over the loudspeakers that war had just been involved the U.S. and that all soldiers must report to their base. He immediately walked to Grand Central Terminal to take the train down to either North Carolina or Virginia.

Elsewhere, days later, my natural father, now long deceased, enlisted in the Navy.

The United States Congress, at the request of President Franklin Roosvelt, declared war the next day. We fought to win, as did Canada.

Imagine the same situation these days. There was probably be an agonizing debate about even seeking a U.N. resolution condemning the attack. There would be discussions about whether going to war would interfere with the "national aspirations of the Hawaiians", who are after all Oriental. There would be a debate about whether Pearl Harbor was "blowback" for English occupation of Australia and the suffering of the aboriginals. Or for the occupation by Portugal of Macao or Britain of Hong Kong. Or the activities of white traders trying to do business in Japan. There was be discussion of a "negotiated" solution.

In short there would be self-flaggelation rather than defense of national interests.

If we went to war and some Japanese prisoner somewhere was humiliated, there would be cries of anguish in the New York Times. The shocking brutality of Japanese torture techniques would have gone undocumented, or buried in back pages. There would be discussions about hiving off a chunk of Australia for the Japanese (oops, maybe not, it's not a Jewish state).

The policies that were pursued would never be done now, for fear of "angering" the Japanese. Well apparently the atom-bombing and total defeat didn't anger them too much; they are intensely allied with the West now. Their businessmen live on guest visas for years. Their children attend our schools and are accepted. Well, maybe we should "anger" our enemies a bit more that way.

[olp1fan]

Didn't even realize it was Pearl Harbour day

Happy 70th anniversary

[msj]

The United States Congress, at the request of President Franklin Roosvelt, declared war the next day. We fought to win, as did Canada.

Yes, but Canada was in it to win it much sooner.....

Imagine the same situation these days. There was probably be an agonizing debate about even seeking a U.N. resolution condemning the attack. There would be discussions about whether going to war would interfere with the "national aspirations of the Hawaiians", who are after all Oriental. There would be a debate about whether Pearl Harbor was "blowback" for English occupation of Australia and the suffering of the aboriginals. Or for the occupation by Portugal of Macao or Britain of Hong Kong. Or the activities of white traders trying to do business in Japan. There was be discussion of a "negotiated" solution.

In short there would be self-flaggelation rather than defense of national interests.

If we went to war and some Japanese prisoner somewhere was humiliated, there would be cries of anguish in the New York Times. The shocking brutality of Japanese torture techniques would have gone undocumented, or buried in back pages. There would be discussions about hiving off a chunk of Australia for the Japanese (oops, maybe not, it's not a Jewish state).

The policies that were pursued would never be done now, for fear of "angering" the Japanese. Well apparently the atom-bombing and total defeat didn't anger them too much; they are intensely allied with the West now. Their businessmen live on guest visas for years. Their children attend our schools and are accepted. Well, maybe we should "anger" our enemies a bit more that way.

Yes, "imagine" indeed.

At the time "we" interned Japanese and stole their property for being, gasp, Japanese in Canada/US.

As for tales of torture: I don't know - we sure seemed to hear about what those Iraqis did to those babies in Kuwait back in 1990. Oh wait....

Edited December 8, 2011 by msj

[jbg]

At the time "we" interned Japanese and stole their property for being, gasp, Japanese in Canada/US.

As for tales of torture: I don't know - we sure seemed to hear about what those Iraqis did to those babies in Kuwait back in 1990. Oh wait....

How about the fact that they, like many recent immigrants (but unlike past ones) made no effort to integrate into society? They did not learn to speak Canadian. If you were running a country with a large, potentially hostile population near the coast, speaking a language few understand what would you do?

Frankly it turned to be a disgrace in many ways, but hindsight is always 20/20. Are you saying we had no business winning that war?

[msj]

How about the fact that they, like many recent immigrants (but unlike past ones) made no effort to integrate into society? They did not learn to speak Canadian. If you were running a country with a large, potentially hostile population near the coast, speaking a language few understand what would you do?

Frankly it turned to be a disgrace in many ways, but hindsight is always 20/20. Are you saying we had no business winning that war?

We had no business stealing their property and unlawfully incarcerating them for being or speaking Japanese.

Edited December 8, 2011 by msj

[sharkman]

War was the only way and they had the courage to see this. I wonder where we'd be today if the Japanese Empire had taken out the Carriers they were after on that fateful day.

[Topaz]

There are some that say that higher ups in the US military knew about the attack was about to happen, just like 9/11. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theory

[Boges]

Pearl Harbour was a blessing in disguise. I'm sure once Winston Churchill heard about it he did a happy dance.

There were many warnings of a Japanese attack and not to be a conspiracy theorist but I suspect they were shhh's because the isolationists needed to be shocked into the war.

Also the idiocy of Hitler for declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbour was a death warrant for Germany.

[Boges]

War was the only way and they had the courage to see this. I wonder where we'd be today if the Japanese Empire had taken out the Carriers they were after on that fateful day.

Well it would have made victory much more difficult. But history has proven that the Axis didn't have the resources to keep that war going.

Let's say they took Hawaii. Eventually the industrial strength that crushed the axis would have have turned the tide.

Japan was fighting a war on like 3 fronts, they had no shot at keeping that empire spreading at the pace they went in 1942.

[DogOnPorch]

Japanese commiting atrocities during WW2 is well known not imagined. Just Google Bataan if you don't 'believe'.

[Guest Manny]

I wonder where we'd be today if the Japanese Empire had taken out the Carriers they were after on that fateful day.

We would be doing our morning exercises at the Yamamoto factory, counting in Japanese.

Today we are starting to figure out, there are other ways to win, and win big, without firing a shot.

Ichi, Nee, San, Shi...

[Boges]

Japanese commiting atrocities during WW2 is well known not imagined. Just Google Bataan if you don't 'believe'.

When you look at history ultimately dropping the bomb was far more a political move to show muscle towards Russia than actually ending the war.

Japan was looking for peace and posed no threat to the Pacific anymore.

[Guest Manny]

Imagine the same situation these days. There was probably be an agonizing debate about even seeking a U.N. resolution condemning the attack. There would be discussions about whether going to war would interfere with the "national aspirations of the Hawaiians", who are after all Oriental. There would be a debate about whether Pearl Harbor was "blowback" for English occupation of Australia and the suffering of the aboriginals. Or for the occupation by Portugal of Macao or Britain of Hong Kong. Or the activities of white traders trying to do business in Japan. There was be discussion of a "negotiated" solution.

In short there would be self-flaggelation rather than defense of national interests.

If we went to war and some Japanese prisoner somewhere was humiliated, there would be cries of anguish in the New York Times. The shocking brutality of Japanese torture techniques would have gone undocumented, or buried in back pages. There would be discussions about hiving off a chunk of Australia for the Japanese (oops, maybe not, it's not a Jewish state).

The policies that were pursued would never be done now, for fear of "angering" the Japanese. Well apparently the atom-bombing and total defeat didn't anger them too much; they are intensely allied with the West now. Their businessmen live on guest visas for years. Their children attend our schools and are accepted. Well, maybe we should "anger" our enemies a bit more that way.

I think your argument is false and patently absurd, given the history of recent events. Pre-emptive war, no less, not even because of an attack.

Don't worry, you can sleep safely knowing that your countries military campaigns will continue, uninterrupted.

[jbg]

We had no business stealing their property and unlawfully incarcerating them for being or speaking Japanese.

And no immigrant group has any business coming here and enclaving.

[Boges]

And no immigrant group has any business coming here and enclaving.

The Japanese interment was no doubt regrettable but as far as WW2 war crimes go, that one was pretty tame.

[sharkman]

When you look at history ultimately dropping the bomb was far more a political move to show muscle towards Russia than actually ending the war.

Japan was looking for peace and posed no threat to the Pacific anymore.

You know, it doesn't matter what the subject is where the US is concerned. The History Revisers have made sure that the US was wrong, her actions inept or down right evil. I don't mean you Boges, but the leftwing intellectuals who started such theories in the halls of higher learning 40 or 50 years ago.

The US was brutally attacked and had Japan been able to take out the US carriers that day then the US would not have had the means to respond in any meaningful way. Japan regularly tortured POWs and murdered them. The things some of their sick minds came up with to kill people was seriously disgusting and to compare it to internment camps that were run over here is laughable.

An even worse attack occurred on 9/11, but the revisionists and conspiracy theorists have the blame for that squarely on Bush's shoulders, he planned it, he carried it out. These idiots do more harm to their country than will ever be known. Young impressionable minds who don't have any common sense yet read nonsense on the internet so it must be true. The internet makes fools of them all.

[DogOnPorch]

When you look at history ultimately dropping the bomb was far more a political move to show muscle towards Russia than actually ending the war.

Japan was looking for peace and posed no threat to the Pacific anymore.

Other than holding vast regions of land under Imperial Japanese rule.

[DogOnPorch]

Japan regularly tortured POWs and murdered them. The things some of their sick minds came up with to kill people was seriously disgusting and to compare it to internment camps that were run over here is laughable.

An example...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-8

[Boges]

Other than holding vast regions of land under Imperial Japanese rule.

Manchuria? Russia took care of much of that.

The Hawks in Washington stubbornly wouldn't allow Japan to keep their emperor as a figurehead. Had they relented on that earlier they wouldn't have needed to drop the bomb. Ultimately Japan did keep to keep their emperor.

I believe the goal of dropping the bomb was to end the war before Russia could jump in and take some of their spoils.

Even after Japan surrendered the USSR kept fighting the Japanese to expand their influence. Which, I would argue, was part of the reason the Korean conflict happened.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

Manchuria? Russia took care of much of that.

The entire East Indies...Indochina...numerous far flung islands. You're probably old enough to recall the era when Japanese soldiers would come out of the jungle 20 years post WW2 thinking it was still on.

The Hawks in Washington stubbornly wouldn't allow Japan to keep their emperor as a figurehead. Had they relented on that earlier they wouldn't have needed to drop the bomb. Ultimately Japan did keep to keep their emperor.

I believe the goal of droping was to end the war before Russia could jump in and take some of their spoils.

Even after Japan surrendered the USSR kept fighting the Japanese to expand their influence. Which, I would argue, was part of the reason the Korean conflict happened.

To impress Stalin and to prevent Operation Olympic which apparently would have seen atomic weapons used tactically...up to seven devices or something crazy like that.

[msj]

Japanese commiting atrocities during WW2 is well known not imagined. Just Google Bataan if you don't 'believe'.

Yes, and Allied atrocities are known, but not as well known, because the victors tell the history.

[Boges]

Yes, and Allied atrocities are known, but not as well known, because the victors tell the history.

What "unknown" atrocities are you accusing the Allies of?

Going to bitch about Dresden next?

Edited December 8, 2011 by Boges

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, and Allied atrocities are known, but not as well known, because the victors tell the history.

Bull. We are free to read Japanese accounts of WW2.

[msj]

Bull. We are free to read Japanese accounts of WW2.

Not relevant to the issue which is: we committed atrocities too.

Probably not near as many nor as brutal but it certainly happened.

In fact, I just recently finished a book about the Guadalcanal navy battles in August and November of 1942 where some incidents were mentioned.

[Boges]

Bull. We are free to read Japanese accounts of WW2.

The type of Moral relativism displayed by people who complain about the allies in WW2 is quite frankly sickening.

There's quite simply no comparison to how the allies treated prisoners/civilians and how the Axis did.