Protest against the LCBO -- Liquor Control Board of Ontario

[The_Squid]

I wasn't sure about offering beer sales in corner stores or grocery stores....

My concern isn't with the fact that it is available and may cause people to dance (LOL Boges), but that the selection and availability of craft beers might actually get worse because of it.

But it seems my fears were unfounded... It looks as if the craft beer industry group sees the benefits in BC's new policies.

http://craftcounsel.ca/bc-allows-grocery-store-liquor-sales/

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/wine+show+grocery+store+shelves+next+year+local+beer+could+follow/9588032/story.html

Edited January 14, 2015 by The_Squid

[guyser]

Just out of curiosity I have to ask why not Guyser? We have a store in Thornton that sells beer and other types of alcohol, it really is great to be able to pick up a few brews when all the other places are closed.

I dont mind the off stores, they are generally supermarkets and they are adamant about ID as the Beer store is.

Im coming around to the idea tho.

[Ash74]

We have cigarettes for sale in corner stores, why not beer?

Corner stores have been getting killed lately so why not level the playing field some.

Could help many small businesses and these same small businesses are tested regularly with smoke and lottery sales by secret shoppers.

It is The Beer Store holding it back and it is not for " social responsibility" it is so they can keep their cash cow humming along.

[GostHacked]

Why can't the LCBO and the Beer Store simply be combined?

[Ash74]

Why can't the LCBO and the Beer Store simply be combined?

So you want to make a bigger government bureaucracy?

So they should buy it back?

Or just take it?

We need less government interference not more in this nanny state.

[guyser]

Why can't the LCBO and the Beer Store simply be combined?

Id be ok wih that, provided some concessions are made, re pricing and expansion.

[Ash74]

Id be ok wih that, provided some concessions are made, re pricing and expansion.

Prices will never get cheaper. 'Social responsibility"

We are too stupid not to pay Al Capone prices. (Actually with inflation it was still cheaper to drink during prohibition)

[Boges]

The only difference would be that at least the LCBO doesn't play favourites with brands because they aren't owners.

[GostHacked]

So you want to make a bigger government bureaucracy?

So they should buy it back?

Or just take it?

We need less government interference not more in this nanny state.

I am not for monopolies myself, but there is no reason two entities need to exist to sell alcohol. The only reason I can see a larger dedicated store is to hold more varieties of certain alcohols.

I would like it in regular stores, as the price would come down. The brewers own the Beer Store more so than the government. They decide what is going to be on the shelves of that store. I would assume that is the same case at the LCBO.

[Ash74]

I am not for monopolies myself, but there is no reason two entities need to exist to sell alcohol. The only reason I can see a larger dedicated store is to hold more varieties of certain alcohols.

I would like it in regular stores, as the price would come down. The brewers own the Beer Store more so than the government. They decide what is going to be on the shelves of that store. I would assume that is the same case at the LCBO.

The prices are never going to come down. Every time it is mentioned the government talks about "social responsibility" that means that we are all too stupid to drink cheaply because they get less taxes.

The Beer Store is getting ready to get hit with a franchise fee. Prices will go up and the tax revenue will go up and We will be the only ones paying the price.

The whole beer and booze system in Ontario is a joke. If you drink you are gonna pay for it. Unless you live close to a reserve that is

[Mighty AC]

The prices are never going to come down.

If we privatized distribution in Ontario the price would likely rise and fall depending on the source. High volume retailers like grocery stores and large liquor vendors like Loblaws own Real Canadian Liquor stores would most likely post lower prices than we see now. However gas stations, corner stores and specialty liquor shops would likely have higher than current pricing. Which is understandable considering we already pay more for everything at low volume convenience stores.

[Boges]

If we privatized distribution in Ontario the price would likely rise and fall depending on the source. High volume retailers like grocery stores and large liquor vendors like Loblaws own Real Canadian Liquor stores would most likely post lower prices than we see now. However gas stations, corner stores and specialty liquor shops would likely have higher than current pricing. Which is understandable considering we already pay more for everything at low volume convenience stores.

Considering the province sets the minimum price, I imagine the price wouldn't deviate that much. A private grocery store or convenient store doesn't need to pay someone $20/hour plus to stock shelves like at the LCBO though, so the overhead wouldn't be nearly as much.

That being said the LCBO always has cheaper wine then the private Wine Racks. But I'm thinking that's because the Wine Racks can only sell VQA and Ontario wines while the LCBO can offer cheaper imports from Chile and South Africa.

Ultimately, with convenient stores, you pay for the convenience of having a place that's walking distance open 24/7. However they do offer very competitive rates for coffee and milk.

[Mighty AC]

Considering the province sets the minimum price, I imagine the price wouldn't deviate that much. A private grocery store or convenient store doesn't need to pay someone $20/hour plus to stock shelves like at the LCBO though, so the overhead wouldn't be nearly as much.

That being said the LCBO always has cheaper wine then the private Wine Racks. But I'm thinking that's because the Wine Racks can only sell VQA and Ontario wines while the LCBO can offer cheaper imports from Chile and South Africa.

Ultimately, with convenient stores, you pay for the convenience of having a place that's walking distance open 24/7. However they do offer very competitive rates for coffee and milk.

When I am tight for time or need something quickly I have no problem paying more for it at a convenience store.

The LCBO prices its products above mandatory minimums so there is room for large retailers to lower the price on many items. A friend of mine manages an LCBO store and he said the average margin, prior to any additional sin tax revenue, is 57%! I would expect that the LCBO would keep the wholesale monopoly even if retail was privatized, so unit costs should remain roughly the same. The province would continue to profit from the wholesale business, sin taxes and new licensing fees.

[overthere]

A friend of mine manages an LCBO store and he said the average margin, prior to any additional sin tax revenue, is 57%! I would expect that the LCBO would keep the wholesale monopoly even if retail was privatized, so unit costs should remain roughly the same. The province would continue to profit from the wholesale business, sin taxes and new licensing fees.

It would be more than 57%, since the LCBO also will have a supplier to wholesale markup that your manager friend would not see.

The Alberta govt has a model similar to yours for 20 tears that involved eliminating retail operations entirely. It has been a winning proposition at all levels, and particualrly for consumers(and they win again as taxpayers)..

[The_Squid]

It would be more than 57%, since the LCBO also will have a supplier to wholesale markup that your manager friend would not see.

The Alberta govt has a model similar to yours for 20 tears that involved eliminating retail operations entirely. It has been a winning proposition at all levels, and particualrly for consumers(and they win again as taxpayers)..

Not quite... it's a mixed-bag, at best.

I don't think Albertans have access to more types of liquor, and prices aren't necessarily cheaper either. Certainly, it is more convenient... but it's convenient in BC as well without the level of privatization.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/Liquor+privatization+Albertans+what+promised/8827230/story.html

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Today, a 750 mL bottle of Smirnoff vodka hovers in the $24 to $26 range throughout the country at the provincially run liquor stores from British Columbia to Ontario. By comparison, in Alberta that same bottle can run anywhere from $18.49 at the Sobeys Liquor Store to $28.99 at a stand-alone mom-and-pop liquor store.

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When he compared the average prices of a selection of alcohol products in Alberta to those in B.C. and Saskatchewan, he concluded that Albertans are paying more than at publicly owned stores in Western Canada.

“It was less of ‘Here’s what Albertans are paying relative to everyone else.’ It was more about trying to get a sense of whether the industry and government promise of cheaper prices has actually come to bear,” Campanella said. “It’s just to point out that it’s not necessarily the fact that Albertans have wildly inexpensive liquor.”

[overthere]

Nobody has ever claimed that Alberta has wildly inexpensive liquor and I do not recall any AB govt promising that. Cheapo booze was never a premise or a promise. Of course, your own source notes instances where much cheaper vodka(by CDN standards) can be found sometimes in AB and never in BC and SK.

I don't think Albertans have access to more types of liquor,

Yes they do as compared to the non privatized times long ago. There are far, far more products available from far more venues than previously,and they have far more products as compared to BC or Sask.

Before privatization there were 209 privately owned beer, wine and liquor stores in the province — a number that has grown to 1,300 today, offering some 19,000 products.

“By comparison, B.C. has 5,000 products and Ontario has 8,000 so that gives you a sense of how well the system is working,” she said

the old ALCB offered something like 2500 products.

BC has the goofiest system of some private and some public liquor stores, with the public stores paying double the money plus benefits for the same work.

Other benefits: AB taxpayers are not on the hook for fat civil service pensions, and not obliged to build and repair many buildings dedicated to selling a simple commodity. The taxpayers really just skims gravy at the wholesale level with little taxpayer liability or investment. Sweet deal.

[Mighty AC]

This was mentioned earlier, privatization in Alberta has led to better prices than most of Canada at large volume vendors and, as expected, higher prices at small volume, but convenient, corner stores and gas stations. That just makes sense. I suspect the averaging of the prices to come up with something higher was intended to mislead.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Mighty AC

[The_Squid]

Nobody has ever claimed that Alberta has wildly inexpensive liquor and I do not recall any AB govt promising that. Cheapo booze was never a premise or a promise. Of course, your own source notes instances where much cheaper vodka(by CDN standards) can be found sometimes in AB and never in BC and SK.

Yes they do as compared to the non privatized times long ago. There are far, far more products available from far more venues than previously,and they have far more products as compared to BC or Sask.

the old ALCB offered something like 2500 products.

BC has the goofiest system of some private and some public liquor stores, with the public stores paying double the money plus benefits for the same work.

Other benefits: AB taxpayers are not on the hook for fat civil service pensions, and not obliged to build and repair many buildings dedicated to selling a simple commodity. The taxpayers really just skims gravy at the wholesale level with little taxpayer liability or investment. Sweet deal.

There are far more products in liquor stores across the country. That is a market trend even with gov't liquor stores, not due to privatization.

BC has a mix of public and private stores with grocery stores soon to be getting into the business. It works very well. The prices are inflated due to gov't policy... it wouldn't take privatization to lower prices...

I would never begrudge a person for making a decent living! That's goofy! Also, these buildings are assets that are delivering a healthy profit to gov't... they are not a net drain! That's a lousy argument...

[Mighty AC]

I would never begrudge a person for making a decent living! That's goofy! Also, these buildings are assets that are delivering a healthy profit to gov't... they are not a net drain! That's a lousy argument...

They are certainly not a net drain but represent an opportunity cost. Ontario could make more through privatization the retail side. They continue to profit from the wholesale business, sin taxes and receive new revenue from licensing fees, while eliminating risk, maintenance and employee compensation costs. Plus, the province benefits from selling off the real estate.

[dre]

Beer, wine, and liquor sales across this country needs to be privatized. Our archaic system is not solving any problems whatsoever and it actually makes it more difficult for responsible drinkers and connoisseurs to get their hands on new and different things. I, for one, really enjoy trying various microbrews from around the world; however, i have to really hunt to get my hands on good stuff, if I can at all.

I dont care if its private or not in theory, but I can tell you that we have both here in BC and in general the prices at private stores higher.

[overthere]

There are far more products in liquor stores across the country. That is a market trend even with gov't liquor stores, not due to privatization.

BC has a mix of public and private stores with grocery stores soon to be getting into the business. It works very well. The prices are inflated due to gov't policy... it wouldn't take privatization to lower prices...

I would never begrudge a person for making a decent living! That's goofy! Also, these buildings are assets that are delivering a healthy profit to gov't... they are not a net drain! That's a lousy argument...

BC has fewer liquor stores(with a larger population) than AB acnd according to the links has less thasn 1/2 as many products as Alberta on the shelves.

If privatization has had no influence on product availability, why didn't the explosion happen before privatization? Same thing with number of stoires, there were very few of them and they were not pen much.

"It works very well" No it doesn't. The only reason-only reason- BC did not go full private is because of political cowardice. They were and are frightened of the unions. That means they still have public employees paid double what private employees are paid for the very same unskilled work. There is no reason whatsoever for the charade in BC other than a complete lack of spine in Victoria.

I also don't begrudge anybody making a living, it is just that there is no need at all for me to pay them. Their function is hardly a core service of government.. I do begrudge massively overpaying civil servants selling a simple commodity that can and is sold by private sector in many places. Its my money.

And no, buildings used by overpaid civil servants do not make money. They cost money to design and build(by civil servants) repair(public money) and operate(public money and lots of it). This is your moment to explain how efficiently the BC govt is in managing real estate while using staff that cost so much.... take your time. Oh and let us not forget the capital cost of new buildings... none of that required.

I noticed you did not speak of those fat pensions accumulating...

[overthere]

I dont care if its private or not in theory, but I can tell you that we have both here in BC and in general the prices at private stores higher.

No problem at all getting anything in AB, and the prices are up to the retailer.

[Boges]

I called this one.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/02/17/ontario-grocery-stores-wont-sell-booze-any-time-soon.html

The LCBO has indefinitely shelved plans to put express kiosks in Ontario grocery stores, a spokesperson has told the Star.

The Liberal government told the liquor agency to halt the long-awaited addition of booze outlets in supermarkets as the province overhauls the way beer and liquor is sold across Ontario, the government-run liquor agency said.

“In light of the work currently being done by the premier’s advisory council on government assets, the provincial government has asked the LCBO to put a hold on the LCBO Express Stores initiative,” spokesperson Heather MacGregor confirmed on Monday.

Now that the Ontario Government has highlighted the Beer Store as this nebulous issue that needs to be fixed they can't ignore the idea of making LCBOs more accessible.

[mrmarconi]

Not quite... it's a mixed-bag, at best.

I don't think Albertans have access to more types of liquor, and prices aren't necessarily cheaper either. Certainly, it is more convenient... but it's convenient in BC as well without the level of privatization.

Having moved to ON from AB a year ago,here's what I have seen. So far I have seen much better selection and prices in AB, although both can widely vary, but if I compare one of my favourite larger liquor stores in Calgary to a similar size LCBO in Kitchner or GTA, Calgary wins out.

Just my personal observation though.

[Boges]

Never thought I'd see the day.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/03/13/kathleen-wynne-not-afraid-to-liberalize-beer-wine-sales-minister-says.html

Premier Kathleen Wynne has the “steel” to bring beer and wine to Ontario supermarkets, says Economic Development Minister Brad Duguid.

In the wake of revelations by the Star’s Martin Regg Cohn that the spring budget will boast the greatest liberalization of booze sales laws in Ontario history, Duguid said no one should doubt Wynne’s fortitude.

“If you’re questioning the determination of this premier to make some of these tough decisions that have not been made in generations in some cases, I would suggest that this premier has the steel to make those decisions,” he told reporters Friday.

“She’s determined to ensure we get full value out of those assets not for the sake of doing so but to ensure that we have the ability to invest that value in building a stronger province through investing in public transit and investing in infrastructure.”

This government doing something people want?

I read that The Beer Store Lobby was notably absent from a recent Liberal Party fundraiser.

God Bless you Kathleen Wynne!

I'd prefer to get beer at a Mac's but hey at this point I'll take it!

Edited March 13, 2015 by Boges