socialist Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 PM me...I'll explain... What, you were hoping they would help you and then you go and stab them in the back. There's gratitude for you. Those people went out of their way to help you, and write disparaging comments about them on this forum. Unbelievable. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
socialist Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Do yourslef a favour...Put him on igore... The silence is deafeneing... You have to ignore me because you dont want me to expose any more of your BS. Loud and clear: Socialist 1 Jack Weber 0 Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
dre Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Yes and no... True,the Soviet Union collapsed because,as history has made it apparent,no centrally planned economy will ever survive in any form of a Capitalistic environment...North Korea being one of the last Marxist hold outs... The Chinese were smart,however...The Chinese,under Deng Xiaoping,realized the failed nature of the Soviet system.And being already authoritarian,they simply mixed in a little "market based economic decision making" and opened things up (a little). This has allowed them to "continue"...By that,I maen the Chinese have remained authoritarian but have allowed a creeping Capitalism and Corporatism into thier politics.In fact,one could easily make the case that the current version of China no longer resembles Chairman Mao's vision for that country,but Benito Mussolini's ( or even General Francisco Franco's) vision of Fascism!!! Meh... the main difference between the USSR and China is that folks in the west got too lazy to keep fighting communism. We just gave up and said "alright alright... do what you want as long as you sell us some cheap stuff". Thats really the biggest difference. With todays generation of westerners the USSR would have thrived. Generation: Useless would be buying Iphones and textiles made in soviet gulags. We would have LOST the cold war! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 Speaking of contradictions... "No truck or trade with the Yankees" Conservative Prime Minister, Robert Borden. I suspect he'd puke if he could see who contemporary Conservatives were selling Canada out to these days. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
socialist Posted May 27, 2012 Report Posted May 27, 2012 i dont know if i will stick around on this forum. i cant beleive how little people care about making things equal. i cant believe there are people here who criticise my brothers and sisters in quebec who are protesting for a better society for all. its a sick world when protestors are looked down upon. i thought i could change some of you for the better but i am bitterly disapointed that most of you are more concerned with material wealth than helping your fellow man get by in this world. why cant you people see that inequality is unfair and there there are people who are fighting against social justice. this forum and my short time here has made me realize why this country is going downhill fast. many of you here need to look in the mirror and see yourself as a problem and you need to try to turn things around to make this world a better place for all not just the rich. i am truly disusted. many of you should be ashamed. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
August1991 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Report Posted May 28, 2012 i dont know if i will stick around on this forum. i cant beleive how little people care about making things equal. i cant believe there are people here who criticise my brothers and sisters in quebec who are protesting for a better society for all. its a sick world when protestors are looked down upon. i thought i could change some of you for the better but i am bitterly disapointed that most of you are more concerned with material wealth than helping your fellow man get by in this world. why cant you people see that inequality is unfair and there there are people who are fighting against social justice. this forum and my short time here has made me realize why this country is going downhill fast. many of you here need to look in the mirror and see yourself as a problem and you need to try to turn things around to make this world a better place for all not just the rich. i am truly disusted. many of you should be ashamed.You blame others for being "more concerned with material wealth" and yet, in effect, you want to re-destribute material wealth. So, you are just as concerned with material wealth as anyone else.And what do you mean by the term "social justice"? How is it different from "justice"? (That is, why do you have to qualify this concept?) Lastly, consider this (counterintuitive) quote of Milton Friedman: "A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." Many societies have tried to achieve equality. Invariably, individuals in such societies become less free and the inequality becomes more flagrant and arbitrary. OTOH, when a society aims to achieve individual liberty, it is astonishing how much equality is the result. Quote
socialist Posted May 28, 2012 Report Posted May 28, 2012 You blame others for being "more concerned with material wealth" and yet, in effect, you want to re-destribute material wealth. So, you are just as concerned with material wealth as anyone else. And what do you mean by the term "social justice"? How is it different from "justice"? (That is, why do you have to qualify this concept?) Lastly, consider this (counterintuitive) quote of Milton Friedman: "A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." Many societies have tried to achieve equality. Invariably, individuals in such societies become less free and the inequality becomes more flagrant and arbitrary. OTOH, when a society aims to achieve individual liberty, it is astonishing how much equality is the result. that sounds like tea party philosophy. that is definitely not what we want. we need a strong socialist govt like sweden in order for canada to prosper. honestly we need a government to the left of the ndp to turn this country around. true socialist countries have great social programs for those who need them and they dont have nearly the crime of capitalist countries. they dont waste their money on military garbage because they know war is destructive. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Signals.Cpl Posted May 28, 2012 Report Posted May 28, 2012 that sounds like tea party philosophy. that is definitely not what we want. we need a strong socialist govt like sweden in order for canada to prosper. honestly we need a government to the left of the ndp to turn this country around. true socialist countries have great social programs for those who need them and they dont have nearly the crime of capitalist countries. they dont waste their money on military garbage because they know war is destructive. Have you heard of the Swedish military? They have 2X our strength, their own domestic fighter industry, and can deploy 8 times as many infantry as Canada can. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
August1991 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Report Posted May 28, 2012 (edited) we need a strong socialist govt like sweden in order for canada to prosper. honestly we need a government to the left of the ndp to turn this country around.In Sweden, electricity is 30 cents/kwh, sales tax is 25%, gasoline is about $2.20/litre. (BTW, Sweden - like Canada - relies on hydro for about half its electricity needs.)I doubt the NDP (or a party to the left of the NDP) would ever get elected if it advocated imposing taxes so that we would have such prices in Canada. ---- It is also intriguing that while Sweden may be "socialist", its government does not apparently believe in solidarity. Sweden did not adopt the euro and has kept the kroner. IOW, Sweden is a relatively small, homogeneous society that manages to achieve high "material wealth" and to share this wealth equally. Well, I know a family of five where everyone works and they all hand over their paycheque (direct deposit, I asked) to the mother who then figures out what to do/buy. Some families, I guess, can work that way; but it's hardly an ideal model for all families. Edited May 28, 2012 by August1991 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted May 28, 2012 Report Posted May 28, 2012 (edited) Cross posting is against the rules here, socialist. I'm sure the folks at Rabble have a handle on what goes on over there. I am a member there and it is a well-managed and well-moderated board with a strong community and set of rules on their own. We don't need to get involved in their affairs - please discuss Rabble issues on Rabble, and keep our discussions confined to this board. Thank you. Edited May 29, 2012 by Charles Anthony removed quoted text Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Charles Anthony Posted May 28, 2012 Report Posted May 28, 2012 Cross posting is against the rules here, socialist. I'm sure the folks at Rabble have a handle on what goes on over there. I am a member there and it is a well-managed and well-moderated board with a strong community and set of rules on their own.We don't need to get involved in their affairs - please discuss Rabble issues on Rabble, and keep our discussions confined to this board. Thank you. Absolutely. This nonsense must stop. Members who engage in these personal attacks and cross-board bickering run the risk of having their posting privileges suspended. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
Michael Hardner Posted May 28, 2012 Report Posted May 28, 2012 Absolutely. This nonsense must stop. Members who engage in these personal attacks and cross-board bickering run the risk of having their posting privileges suspended. Thanks for the clarity on this, Charles. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted June 1, 2012 Report Posted June 1, 2012 At no time has anyone on this thread,that I can see,been clambering for a top down,centralized,authoritarian Leftist state...Let's be clear though, Marxism can never be top-down and authoritarian. It's the end of class structure. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 1, 2012 Report Posted June 1, 2012 Let's be clear though, Marxism can never be top-down and authoritarian. It's the end of class structure. Let's see what organized crime thinks about that. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted June 1, 2012 Report Posted June 1, 2012 Let's be clear though, Marxism can never be top-down and authoritarian. It's the end of class structure. Perhaps,but that's the fallacy of Marx' theories... He never accounted for the human failings of Man's lust for power and greed...The very things his theories were designed to curtail! And in all cases when any governemnt implemented Marxist theories they ended up with disastrous authoritarian results... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
DogOnPorch Posted June 1, 2012 Report Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) Perhaps,but that's the fallacy of Marx' theories... He never accounted for the human failings of Man's lust for power and greed...The very things his theories were designed to curtail! And in all cases when any governemnt implemented Marxist theories they ended up with disastrous authoritarian results... Indeed. What I find most amusing is that these hombres in the streets are the Mensheviks. But, of course, they'll never collectively know it. Before. After. Edited June 1, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 Indeed. What I find most amusing is that these hombres in the streets are the Mensheviks. But, of course, they'll never collectively know it. Before. After. Agreed... But only matched by the amusing notion put out by the free marketeers that (crypto-Fascist) China is the new model to best represent the "freedom" Capitalism provides... Prettt much infantile thought all the way around... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
cybercoma Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Perhaps,but that's the fallacy of Marx' theories... He never accounted for the human failings of Man's lust for power and greed...The very things his theories were designed to curtail! And in all cases when any governemnt implemented Marxist theories they ended up with disastrous authoritarian results... But that's the point. Marx's theories were government implemented, which was the great failing of those governments. Marxism cannot be government implemented. It must come from the proletariat and be by the proletariat. What's an even bigger problem is that Marx never said what a Communist society would look like. He just described capitalism, it's successes and failures, and how history would develop as a result of capitalist society. His theories bring us up to the 'Revolution' (that will likely never happen), but never beyond. We have no idea what Marx thought society would look like without class, save for reading between the lines. Edited June 2, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) But that's the point. Marx's theories were government implemented, which was the great failing of those governments. Marxism cannot be government implemented. It must come from the proletariat and be by the proletariat. What's an even bigger problem is that Marx never said what a Communist society would look like. He just described capitalism, it's successes and failures, and how history would develop as a result of capitalist society. His theories bring us up to the 'Revolution' (that will likely never happen), but never beyond. We have no idea what Marx thought society would look like without class, save for reading between the lines. Uh, huh...so what do you think the Hell's Angels (etc) will think of yours and Marx's classless society? Edited June 2, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 Uh, huh...so what do you think the Hell's Angels (etc) will think of yours and Marx's classless society? They'd probably hate it as much as any other sociopathic (etc) corporation. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 They'd probably hate it as much as any other sociopathic (etc) corporation. Right...but, of course, they'll all just shut-up and put-up. Won't they?? Of course they will. This is reason #1 why Marxism/Anarchism does not work. Not everybody is going to be cool with no class/property/rules/punishments and will use this golden opportunity to hijack yon hippy drum circle. Marxism always looks better sitting at a table with one's non-violent friends. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 Right...but, of course, they'll all just shut-up and put-up. Won't they?? Of course they will. This is reason #1 why Marxism/Anarchism does not work. Not everybody is going to be cool with no class/property/rules/punishments and will use this golden opportunity to hijack yon hippy drum circle. Marxism always looks better sitting at a table with one's non-violent friends. Correctomundo!!! Historical evidence?? Check out the divisions within the Republican side of the Spanish Civil War between the Anarcho-Syndicalists (essentially leftist libertarians) and the far more violent and authoritarian Marxists,particularily around Barcelona... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) But that's the point. Marx's theories were government implemented, which was the great failing of those governments. Marxism cannot be government implemented. It must come from the proletariat and be by the proletariat. What's an even bigger problem is that Marx never said what a Communist society would look like. He just described capitalism, it's successes and failures, and how history would develop as a result of capitalist society. His theories bring us up to the 'Revolution' (that will likely never happen), but never beyond. We have no idea what Marx thought society would look like without class, save for reading between the lines. Then Marx' theories were more infantile than I first thought... If he felt a societal revolution was neceessary,and to a certain extent he may have been right,the fact that he couldn't (or wouldn't) come to some sort of logical conclusion proves the incompleteness of his thought processes... Edited June 2, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
cybercoma Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 Arguing with people who haven't read Marx and have no interest in doing so, but would like to come on internet forums and criticize something they lack even an elementary knowledge about is a bore. I'm not going to sit here explaining the writings of Marx to a bunch of people that have already made up their minds that his works are useless. Meanwhile, they persist in academics because they most certainly are valuable. You know these cycles of crises that the capitalist system keeps going through (ie, the Depression)? It was Marx that called it. You know the internet that brings people together so they can form protests like OWS? Marx called that too. You know how very few people live in rural areas anymore? Marx called that as well. He was a historian of society and if you read his work it's clear that he was right about just about everything, except the Revolution. The reason he wasn't right about the Revolution is that we moved from capitalist society to mixed-economies, where we demand government intervention at the slightest sign of trouble (interest rate adjustments, stimulus, unemployment insurance, etc). So to read from someone that clearly has no clue what Marx was writing about at all that Marx's theories were 'infantile' is pretty humourous. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 All one really needs to know about Communism...errrr....Marxism...is that anywhere it has been tried, mass death follows. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.