Persecuted Christians In America!

[maple_leafs182]

If only more Christians were like this guy.

Ron Paul talking about the Christian Just War Theory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md1ynIJWrTU&feature=feedf

[Guest American Woman]

Thanks for providing such a perfect example of the mentality I was thinking of when I started this thread. You're presenting this as an example of a Christian being persecuted,

Hardly, kimmy. I was being facetious, in line with your OP; I was hardly presenting it as a Christian being "persecuted." Just wanted to show that Christians in Canada feel "persecuted" too, and it's not just Fox News reporting such incidents. Furthermore, atheists do their share of badmouthing in more places than the internet - and are not quiet about it - as plenty of atheists have a persecution complex of their own.

And yes, it is "ok" to badmouth everyone to a certain extent - I was referring to the PC who seem to think everyone else is off limits - while making the point that it ain't just the USA and/or Fox News. Furthermore, I doubt whether most Christians who complain about the double standard that too often exists actually feel "persecuted." But of course such hyperbole puts them in even worse light, eh?

[olp1fan]

If christians kept their religion to themselves I would not care and they wouldn't be "persecuted"

[Shwa]

Ironic?

No. But let's try:

I don't know about your world Kimmy but in my world, "Catholic" and Christian in general are taboo words. I know no one who admits to going to Mass. (Not true. I have a friend whose elderly father goes to church every Sunday.) I know someone younger who said that he went to Temple - but that's acceptable. OTOH, I know several young women who cover their hair, and not because they are nuns.

I don't know about your world August but in my world, "Catholic" and Christian in general are not taboo words at all (we even have Catholic school boards where I live. Go figure.) I know plenty of people who admit to going to Mass. (True. I have friends whose elderly parents go to church every Sunday.) I know lots of younger people who go to Churches - and that's perfectly acceptable. OTOH, I know several young women who cover their hair, and some of them are nuns and teachers. Others like hats.

Auguest, wherever you are in the QC hinterlands, you are not in modern western civilization as it is in this new millenium.

Yes, they are.

No they're not and you know they're not.

BD, you - and people like you - want to rid society of Christians.

August - and people like you - want to equate self-righteousness with persecution. Hence, all the over-the-top hyperbole.

[Black Dog]

Yes, they are.

Saying something over and over again does not make it so. Sorry.

Being greeted with "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is not an act of persecution. Such whinging over trivialities demeans the word.

BD, you - and people like you - want to rid society of Christians.

Cite?

[Black Dog]

You know, I'm sure Southern plantation owners forced to give up their slaves felt that they were persecuted as well.

[cybercoma]

dre, would you prefer a world without Christian thought? Without right and wrong?

I absolutely despise this kind of bigoted nonsense. Do you really think Christians have a monopoly on right and wrong? It's this kind of thinking that dominated and tortured cultures for centuries because they were considered primitive and savage heathens.

[Michael Hardner]

I absolutely despise this kind of bigoted nonsense. Do you really think Christians have a monopoly on right and wrong? It's this kind of thinking that dominated and tortured cultures for centuries because they were considered primitive and savage heathens.

I think that you're misunderstanding the point... Christian thought has been fundamental to the formation of our current democracies. I would say that when it comes to Christian thought: like it or not... you like it.

[Bonam]

dre, would you prefer a world without Christian thought? Without right and wrong?

What? The fact that you think "Christian thought" and "right and wrong" are somehow synonymous just shows how deeply confused you are.

[Bonam]

I think that you're misunderstanding the point... Christian thought has been fundamental to the formation of our current democracies. I would say that when it comes to Christian thought: like it or not... you like it.

Christian thought is what prevailed for over a thousand years of dark ages and middle ages. It is only when people began to shed the shackles of religion and think freely outside the bounds of its dogmas that we entered the renaissance, the scientific and industrial revolutions, and the formation of modern democratic systems.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think that you're misunderstanding the point... Christian thought has been fundamental to the formation of our current democracies. I would say that when it comes to Christian thought: like it or not... you like it.

While it is true that the so called Judeo-Christian ethic has influenced current executions of democratic government(s), they are in no way fundamental to the formation of democracy, which pre-dates Christianity by hundreds if not thousands of years. Many other natural law and secular humanism concepts were more influential. Democracy can and did develop in the absence of Christianity.

[cybercoma]

I think that you're misunderstanding the point... Christian thought has been fundamental to the formation of our current democracies. I would say that when it comes to Christian thought: like it or not... you like it.

Christian thought is very different than saying Christianity has the market cornered on notions of right and wrong. It implies that no one can understand right and wrong unless they're Christian. This, of course, is patently absurd. As for Christian thought, of course the Western thinking developed through Christianity. I'm not denying that. What does bother me is when people say you need to be Christian to understand right from wrong.

August is suggesting that the world without Christian thought would be a world without right and wrong. This is utter nonsense and completely insulting to anyone that does not come from a Judeo-Christian heritage. It also ignores the myriad atrocities committed thanks to Judeo-Christian thought as well. There is very little if any connection between Christian thought and right and wrong. I don't need to be a Christian to know that raping a child is wrong. Meanwhile, you have charges against many Catholic priests and an institution that has gone out of its way to protect them.

Anyway, the idea that there would be no such thing and right and wrong if there was no such thing as Christianity is incredibly offensive to me.

[cybercoma]

While it is true that the so called Judeo-Christian ethic has influenced current executions of democratic government(s), they are in no way fundamental to the formation of democracy, which pre-dates Christianity by hundreds if not thousands of years. Many other natural law and secular humanism concepts were more influential. Democracy can and did develop in the absence of Christianity.

While I agree with what you've said, BC. I think it's important to unpack what MH means by "current executions of democratic government(s)." I believe he's talking about the fundamental principles of Charter Rights and the US Constitution. I suppose you could weave an argument that this is a result of Judeo-Christian thought, but I believe it would be a better argument to say that it's a result of Renaissance thinking which in some ways has tension with Judeo-Christian thought. I don't think he was talking specifically about democracy in general, which as you say pre-dates Christianity.

And damn you MH for making me agree with BC.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I believe he's talking about the fundamental principles of Charter Rights and the US Constitution....

Nevertheless, those documents have at their foundation natutal law derived from a generic "creator" and resulting secular humanism, regardless of any subsequent alliances or even in spite of the barriers presented by Christianity.

Religion may take on a heightened superficial role during past and present conflicts, both domestic and foreign, but it detracts more than adds to the underpinnings of democracy's development.

[cybercoma]

Nevertheless, those documents have at their foundation natutal law derived from a generic "creator" and resulting secular humanism, regardless of any subsequent alliances or even in spite of the barriers presented by Christianity.

Religion may take on a heightened superficial role during past and present conflicts, both domestic and foreign, but it detracts more than adds to the underpinnings of democracy's development.

Natural Law comes from the writings of Cicero, which arguably sparked off the Renaissance when they were rediscovered by Petrarch. The Renaissance was essentially humanist and Cicero, of course, predates Christianity, which is why I agreed with you.

[kimmy]

I don't know about your world Kimmy but in my world, "Catholic" and Christian in general are taboo words. I know no one who admits to going to Mass. (Not true. I have a friend whose elderly father goes to church every Sunday.) I know someone younger who said that he went to Temple - but that's acceptable. OTOH, I know several young women who cover their hair, and not because they are nuns.

Kimmy, wherever you are in the BC hinterlands, you are not in modern western civilization as it is in this new millenium.

You make two errors, August. The first, you assume that what is true in midtown Montreal is true everywhere. And the second, even if what you say is true, you have not demonstrated that Christians are persecuted, just that Christianity is "uncool".

On another thread, I posted a link to a French TV documentary about Norwegian politics. Norwegians are Lutherans, Protestant Christians. I have many reasons to disagree with Buddhists and Lutherans but I must admit that Lutherans make for honest democratic politicians and Buddhists make for happy if unoriginal people. (If Mozart had been born a Buddhist rather than a Christian, we never would have known his music.)

Kimmy (and Black Dog), religion matters.

...because it allows you to form bland generalizations about people? (Lutheran ---> honest; Buddhist---> pleasant but dull; Protestant ---> earnest; Born-again Protestent ---> Angry; Atheist ---> Angrier...) If that's why "religion matters" to you, then you've provided a good example of why religion ought to matter less.

For what it's worth, Norwegians are Lutherans in the same sense that Quebecois are Catholics: maybe, in theory, on paper... but in reality not so much. Norway is among the very least religious societies on earth, rivaled only by their Scandinavian neighbors. Perhaps that "Lutheran honesty" you see in their politics is something you see because it agrees with your preconceptions.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

Christian thought is what prevailed for over a thousand years of dark ages and middle ages. It is only when people began to shed the shackles of religion and think freely outside the bounds of its dogmas that we entered the renaissance, the scientific and industrial revolutions, and the formation of modern democratic systems.

Nonetheless, those things happened because of the reformation - the foundation of which was competing Christian beliefs.

[Michael Hardner]

While it is true that the so called Judeo-Christian ethic has influenced current executions of democratic government(s), they are in no way fundamental to the formation of democracy, which pre-dates Christianity by hundreds if not thousands of years. Many other natural law and secular humanism concepts were more influential. Democracy can and did develop in the absence of Christianity.

Our current democracy is directly traceable to religious conflicts within Christianity.

I'm just saying that we can't separate Christianity from the forces that brought us to where we are today, and in my view we wouldn't have arrived here without the structures that Christianity had in place within the framework of European nations.

[kimmy]

Hardly, kimmy. I was being facetious, in line with your OP; I was hardly presenting it as a Christian being "persecuted."

I'm relieved to know you see the humor in the situation. Sadly, Christians claiming they are victims of persecution seem to be very serious.

Just wanted to show that Christians in Canada feel "persecuted" too, and it's not just Fox News reporting such incidents.

I made the thread about America because we've been hearing so much about this from the United States of late. Whether it be people saying that this or that candidate is being persecuted for his or her beliefs (see the "Rank the crazies" thread) or the apparent furor regarding "Holiday Trees", or the Hot Button Topic of whether Tim Tebow is being mocked because he prominently demonstrates his faith on the field (personally I think he is being mocked because he sucks) or the refusal of education boards to "Teach The Controversy" and put creationism in biology classes, or the interpretation of each and every church-state court case as an attack on Christianity, or the Christian lobbyists who argued that the anti-bullying law was an attack on Christianity, or ... I could go on (and usually do) but I think you get the idea.

For the next 2 months we get the added treat of hearing War Correspondent Bill O'Reilly update us from the front-lines of the "War On Christmas". (the latest: Bill will not be shopping at Crate And Barrel because their signage says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". RETREAT! Retreat from Crate And Barrel!) "The War On Christmas" is the funniest running gag in news broadcasting since Les Nessman's daily hog report.

There might be Christians in Canada who are crying victim as well, but it's really not much of a topic of national discussion, and Christians in Canada don't have the visibility and political clout that they do in the United States. It comes up from time to time, but right now this seems to be a big theme in American politics.

Furthermore, atheists do their share of badmouthing in more places than the internet - and are not quiet about it - as plenty of atheists have a persecution complex of their own.

Often with justification.

And yes, it is "ok" to badmouth everyone to a certain extent - I was referring to the PC who seem to think everyone else is off limits - while making the point that it ain't just the USA and/or Fox News. Furthermore, I doubt whether most Christians who complain about the double standard that too often exists actually feel "persecuted." But of course such hyperbole puts them in even worse light, eh?

Christians might get roughed up a bit on the internet (and so does everybody else) but as far as treatment by the media and public figures and corporations and mainstream culture in general I think Christians are treated with as much (if not more) respect as everybody else.

-k

[SF/PF]

Nonetheless, those things happened because of the reformation - the foundation of which was competing Christian beliefs.

I suspect that you have the causal relationship backwards. I would suggest that these regional changes in Christian theology had their origin in secular thought and society.

Edited November 19, 2011 by SF/PF

[Michael Hardner]

I suspect that you have the causal relationship backwards. I would suggest that these regional changes in Christian theology had their origin in secular thought and society.

The reformation was about disputes around Christian theology. There were rational arguments made by Luther and others, but to equate rational and secular is incorrect. Luther challenged the church because it was corrupt, not because it wasn't secular enough.

Eventually, there were many churches coexisting with many states. As writing flourished, the examination of the rights of man - including self-expression and the right to worship - unfolded. This also existed in a Europe in which state and church competed over an expanding economy, property rights, taxation, exploration and investment and so on....

[Guest American Woman]

I'm relieved to know you see the humor in the situation.

Actually, the humor I was seeing was in the thread and the way it was presented.

Sadly, Christians claiming they are victims of persecution seem to be very serious.

I'm not seeing this - a large-scale claim of persecution by Christians. Perhaps there are a few perceiving it that way, but what I'm seeing is an objection to a double standard - which is totally different from "persecution." What I'm seeing is others claiming that Christians are claiming to be persecuted.

I made the thread about America because we've been hearing so much about this from the United States of late.

Have we? Or is it the U.S. that everyone is picking up on? and going on and on about? not all coming "from the United States."

Whether it be people saying that this or that candidate is being persecuted for his or her beliefs (see the "Rank the crazies" thread) or the apparent furor regarding "Holiday Trees", or the Hot Button Topic of whether Tim Tebow is being mocked because he prominently demonstrates his faith on the field (personally I think he is being mocked because he sucks) or the refusal of education boards to "Teach The Controversy" and put creationism in biology classes, or the interpretation of each and every church-state court case as an attack on Christianity, or the Christian lobbyists who argued that the anti-bullying law was an attack on Christianity, or ... I could go on (and usually do) but I think you get the idea.

I'm aware of these issues, but not that Christians at large are claiming to be "persecuted" over them. They are allowed to speak their minds and note the selective tolerance; that doesn't mean they are claiming that Christians are "persecuted."

For the next 2 months we get the added treat of hearing War Correspondent Bill O'Reilly update us from the front-lines of the "War On Christmas".

Not me, because I don't listen to it. Don't like it? I suggest you don't listen either.

(the latest: Bill will not be shopping at Crate And Barrel because their signage says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". RETREAT! Retreat from Crate And Barrel!) "The War On Christmas" is the funniest running gag in news broadcasting since Les Nessman's daily hog report.

Such things don't bother me in the least, because I'm selective as to what I will spend my time listening to. Since it apparently bothers you so much, why do you listen?

There might be Christians in Canada who are crying victim as well, but it's really not much of a topic of national discussion, and Christians in Canada don't have the visibility and political clout that they do in the United States. It comes up from time to time, but right now this seems to be a big theme in American politics.

Again, others seem to see it as a big theme in American politics, blowing it out of proportion. That Christians in Canada are feeling the same as Christians in the U.S., yet it's Christians in the U.S. who are getting the media attention and Canadians are focused on, just speaks of another issue, IMO.

Often with justification.

This is rich. When atheists exhibit a persecution complex it's "often with justification."

When Christians do, it's because they are whiny; when atheists do, it's "often with justification."

As I've said, just the other side of the coin........

Christians might get roughed up a bit on the internet (and so does everybody else) but as far as treatment by the media and public figures and corporations and mainstream culture in general I think Christians are treated with as much (if not more) respect as everybody else.

That's your opinion - and I disagree. As for everyone getting "roughed up a bit on the internet," that doesn't mean the selective tolerance of which I speak doesn't exist - and it doesn't dispel the fact that so many atheists (and that includes posters here) are just the opposite side of the coin, engaging in exactly the same behavior, exhibiting the same mindset, as the religious people of which they speak.

[Jack Weber]

I have often wondered what BC_2004 would look like in drag.

I was going to say the same thing...

The tut tutting from our Yank friends gets to be comical sometimes...

However,perhaps the same person is name jumping?

[cybercoma]

Our current democracy is directly traceable to religious conflicts within Christianity.

I'm just saying that we can't separate Christianity from the forces that brought us to where we are today, and in my view we wouldn't have arrived here without the structures that Christianity had in place within the framework of European nations.

That doesn't mean that the place we would have arrived would have been completely devoid of morality or right and wrong. You can't know whether it would have been "better" or "worse" in any way.

[Michael Hardner]

That doesn't mean that the place we would have arrived would have been completely devoid of morality or right and wrong. You can't know whether it would have been "better" or "worse" in any way.

I didn't address that point at all because it's elementary and therefore uninteresting to me.

I do like to point out instances where people superimpose today's politics on the past though. The evolution debate today, for example, is between fringe fundamentalists who want to legitimize their religious views by putting them at the same level as accepted scientific facts. But that debate isn't analagous to the debates (eventually, wars) that broke the church and created Protestantism.

Too many people want to have a simplistic debate here ("is religion good or bad") whenever religion is part of the discussion.