Persecuted Christians In America!

[Shakeyhands]

I'm not a religious man myself. Much more of a devout agnostic!

Still, let me be the first to wish everyone on MLW a Merry Christmas!

Hahaha.

[Shakeyhands]

This topic is very very topical right now, what with all of the persecution and the bigotry that Christians face each and every day in America!

Please! Let us break the silence now! And bring this injustice to light! Please post your examples here!

-k

Christian persecution complex is what you meant... right?

[Black Dog]

Good question. Yet we have complaints about Christians being bullied in the court of public opinion, maybe it's all right to trash people if they make up more than half the population.

There are complaints. Whether they are valid or indicative of any larger trend is completely up for debate.

[Shwa]

Christian persecution complex is what you meant... right?

Yep. The acronym for that mental disorder is CPC.

[dre]

Good question. Yet we have complaints about Christians being bullied in the court of public opinion, maybe it's all right to trash people if they make up more than half the population.

WHos doing the real bullying here? Religion is one of the most aggresive and evangelic groups out there in terms of trying to push their views on other.

I get a few preachers showing up at my door every single year trying to tell me how to live, totally unsolicited.

Ya know how many gay activists come to my door asking me to be nice to homosexuals? Zero.

Ya know how many atheists show up at my door with biology textbooks? Zero.

Do gay activists tell me that I will be tortured in hell for all eternity if I dont live my life THEIR way? Nope.

Who exactly is getting bullied here?

[olp1fan]

WHos doing the real bullying here? Religion is one of the most aggresive and evangelic groups out there in terms of trying to push their views on other.

I get a few preachers showing up at my door every single year trying to tell me how to live, totally unsolicited.

Ya know how many gay activists come to my door asking me to be nice to homosexuals? Zero.

Ya know how many atheists show up at my door with biology textbooks? Zero.

Do gay activists tell me that I will be tortured in hell for all eternity if I dont live my life THEIR way? Nope.

Who exactly is getting bullied here?

Nice!

[Shakeyhands]

Yep. The acronym for that mental disorder is CPC.

Hmmmm....... Sounds nicer than CRAP

[Guest American Woman]

WHos doing the real bullying here? Religion is one of the most aggresive and evangelic groups out there in terms of trying to push their views on other.

Riiiight. All the atheists here saying their way is the only true belief system, the belief that everyone must come to embrace, that only the weak and ignorant have need for a God/believe in God, as they make fun, are just meek and mild little darlings; rays of sunshine. Nothing at all aggressive about them when presenting their points of view.

I get a few preachers showing up at my door every single year trying to tell me how to live, totally unsolicited.

Oh, the horror! Do you have Girl Scouts selling cookies showing up at your door unsolicited too?

Ya know how many gay activists come to my door asking me to be nice to homosexuals? Zero.

Ya know how many atheists show up at my door with biology textbooks? Zero.

They're busy in other areas - banning Christmas trees and Christmas carols etc. I see that as not so different.

Do gay activists tell me that I will be tortured in hell for all eternity if I dont live my life THEIR way? Nope.

Gay activists have made threats of violence. They aren't a group of saints any more than any other group.

Who exactly is getting bullied here?

It's a matter of selective tolerance and intolerance.

I know kimmy's thread is meant to be facetious against Americans/American politicians/Fox News, but there is validity to the idea that it's ok to bad mouth Christians. And it's not something that's felt just in the U.S., hence my example from Canada. In some instances, such as in the the UK according to an article I recently read, it goes further - aid was cut off to countries that discriminate against gays - while still going to countries that actually do persecute Christians.

I don't care to get caught up in this, but the idea that religious groups are the only ones who are guilty of any of the "bullying" behavior you refer to is ridiculous.

Furthermore, to hear tell, religion is all bad. Yet the fact is, religious groups have done wonders around the world, helping establish schools, medical centers, hospitals, orphanages, sponsorships - I've seen it first hand. I've heard the testimonies from those benefiting - I've heard the appreciation. Since you seem determined to compare, I have to wonder - how many gay organizations have done the same?

[olp1fan]

Christianity is responsible for all kinds of atrocities (yes, so are Muslims, I'm not letting them off the hook either)

Christians kill homosexuals with their words, Muslims kill homosexuals with their words and hands ... however I see no big difference between the two when in the end both achieve the same result and feel justified in doing so

[Black Dog]

One need only look at the United States, the power of the evangelical lobby and the fact that expressing a personal belief Christianity is essentially a prerequisite for higher political office to see that the whole idea of Christians as a persecuted identity is pure hogwash.

[olp1fan]

Exactly Black Dog and the fact that Christianity relies on fear...making its flock fear everything

they use fear to their advantage which should be totally unacceptable to any free thinking person

[The_Squid]

One need only look at the United States, the power of the evangelical lobby and the fact that expressing a personal belief Christianity is essentially a prerequisite for higher political office to see that the whole idea of Christians as a persecuted identity is pure hogwash.

well said

[Boges]

Christianity is responsible for all kinds of atrocities (yes, so are Muslims, I'm not letting them off the hook either)

Christians kill homosexuals with their words, Muslims kill homosexuals with their words and hands ... however I see no big difference between the two when in the end both achieve the same result and feel justified in doing so

And atheists commit atrocities too. No believe system is exclusive of evil people.

BTW how is it evil to believe Homosexuality is sin, I'm assuming that's what you're getting at when you say they kill them with their words.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Boges

[Boges]

Exactly Black Dog and the fact that Christianity relies on fear...making its flock fear everything

they use fear to their advantage which should be totally unacceptable to any free thinking person

What fear of Hell?

If you believe in God and the only way to be with God is to believe in Jesus what other way is acceptable to describe the fate of someone who doesn't believe in God?

If you don't believe in God you shouldn't fear Hell, so how is fear a factor in this?

[dre]

Riiiight. All the atheists here saying their way is the only true belief system, the belief that everyone must come to embrace, that only the weak and ignorant have need for a God/believe in God, as they make fun, are just meek and mild little darlings; rays of sunshine. Nothing at all aggressive about them when presenting their points of view.

Well... you are on the political messageboard here, and atheists and christians alike are opinionated. But in reality historically atheists are one of the least evangelical groups in history. They are a tiny minority in the world, probably less than 5%, and in most places they live in fear and are the most hated minorities around. In the US they are more hated and distrusted than muslims post 911.

For the most part atheists are scared shitless and stay quiet.

Christianity on the other hand has 2000 years of history pushing their values down other peoples throats, and using every available means to do so, from locking people up who have views that contradict the church (Gallileo for example), burning books, and destroying other religions through direct violence.

I dont think many atheists will tell you that youre going to burn in hell for all eternity if you dont believe in darwinism.

Oh, the horror! Do you have Girl Scouts selling cookies showing up at your door unsolicited too?

The difference is that it wouldnt even be SAFE for an atheist to go door to door in the US and most other countries with a biology text book. They would need a police escort.

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-los-angeles/death-threats-force-removal-of-atheist-billboard

This atheist group had the gall to put up a completely bland billboard that said "If you dont believe in god, youre not alone". The billboard had to be removed because of a string of death threats.

I don't care to get caught up in this, but the idea that religious groups are the only ones who are guilty of any of the "bullying" behavior you refer to is ridiculous.

Its a matter of degree. You might find the odd militant atheist, but Christianity was built from the ground up on evangelical behavior. Getting others to accept their values is a core part of their "operation". Even a lot of their "charity" activity is based on this concept.

Furthermore, to hear tell, religion is all bad. Yet the fact is, religious groups have done wonders around the world, helping establish schools, medical centers, hospitals, orphanages, sponsorships - I've seen it first hand. I've heard the testimonies from those benefiting - I've heard the appreciation. Since you seem determined to compare, I have to wonder - how many gay organizations have done the same?

Yup, thats true. All three abrahamic religions are mixed bags. None of them are "all bad".

Edited November 17, 2011 by dre

[olp1fan]

And atheists commit atrocities too. No believe system is exclusive of evil people.

BTW how is it evil to believe Homosexuality is sin, I'm assuming that's what you're getting at when you say they kill them with their words.

never said athiests dont commit atrocities

Christians are bullies and believe homosexuals will burn in hell.. sorry bud but that is evil

[olp1fan]

What fear of Hell?

If you believe in God and the only way to be with God is to believe in Jesus what other way is acceptable to describe the fate of someone who doesn't believe in God?

If you don't believe in God you shouldn't fear Hell, so how is fear a factor in this?

Fear of anything that they find immoral.. fear of the world

[cybercoma]

Could somebody let the fundamentalists know that it isn't persecution when people won't let them oppress others.

[kimmy]

I know kimmy's thread is meant to be facetious against Americans/American politicians/Fox News, but there is validity to the idea that it's ok to bad mouth Christians.

It's ok to badmouth everybody, up to a point. We have free speech, and unless you present a credible threat of harm, commit libel, or (in Canada) break hate speech regulations, it's going to happen.

If you're a Christian you get badmouthed on internet message boards, and if you're an atheist you get badmouthed on national TV by a likely future president.

And it's not something that's felt just in the U.S., hence my example from Canada.

And without further ado let's have a look at the example you provided...

"Why is it us Christians that always have to bend?" [Mayor] Tremblay told the Globe and Mail newspaper. "Our values have no importance. I am the first mayor in the history of the world to be punished for reciting a prayer." link

Oops. Sorry. That's a persecuted Christian in Canada. No relevance to this thread, eh?

Thanks for providing such a perfect example of the mentality I was thinking of when I started this thread. You're presenting this as an example of a Christian being persecuted, but what it really is is an example of the sense of entitlement Christians feel in our society, and how they cry victim when their expectations of special treatment are not met.

Had the mayor been a Hindu, installed an idol of Ganesh in the city council chambers, and led ritual chanting before council meetings, nobody would be under the illusion that that was appropriate for city hall. So why, then, would Christians think that a crucifix and prayers belong in council chambers? Because Christians think they're entitled to special treatment that other faiths do not receive, and when they are thwarted they cry victim.

In some instances, such as in the the UK according to an article I recently read, it goes further - aid was cut off to countries that discriminate against gays - while still going to countries that actually do persecute Christians.

I couldn't comment without knowing more. However, I'm pretty sure that the only countries where institutionalized persecution of Christians exists are Muslim countries where homosexuality tends to be a capital offense... so that doesn't quote add up. Countries where there is widespread violence against Christians-- some places in Africa, for example... the violence isn't government sanctioned (officially, at least) but rather the work of Muslim militias. But again, I don't know the specifics. But I'll be sure to have that ready for when the "Persecuted Christians in Africa!" thread comes along.

I don't care to get caught up in this, but the idea that religious groups are the only ones who are guilty of any of the "bullying" behavior you refer to is ridiculous.

Certainly not. However, religious people are the only ones who'll insist that what they're doing is justified or even required by their faith. For example, as a Michigander you're probably familiar with the controversy over "Matt's Safe School Law" a couple of weeks ago, in which religious lobbyists like American Family Association strong-armed lawmakers into providing religious exemptions in the anti-bullying law. Which was, of course, widely interpreted as a license-to-bully as long as you invoke religion. After the extremely negative national publicity and backlash, the legislators removed the controversial clause in the bill, and Gary Glenn of AFA said what everybody knew they were thinking all along: that the "safe school" law was "a Trojan Horse for the homosexual agenda". As far as they were concerned it wasn't about protecting kids, it was an attack on Christians.

Furthermore, to hear tell, religion is all bad. Yet the fact is, religious groups have done wonders around the world, helping establish schools, medical centers, hospitals, orphanages, sponsorships - I've seen it first hand. I've heard the testimonies from those benefiting - I've heard the appreciation. Since you seem determined to compare, I have to wonder - how many gay organizations have done the same?

Of course. Lots of religious people do good things. Lots of religious charities help people all over the world. Most of the religious people I know are very decent people in every respect.

I do wish to make one point though: I give to charity too. And while that statement probably elicited at least one of these little guys: from you, I mention it because at least some of the organizations I've donated to are Christian organizations. And I think that a lot of non-religious and gay people do the same: they don't discriminate based on who is running the charity, they make their decision based on how worthy they think the cause is. So I became pretty annoyed recently when I heard some Christian blowhard saying along the lines of "When disaster strikes and when people are in need, Christians are there and the atheists are nowhere to be found." And you know, this might sound petty... but if that guy is going to take money that I donate and tell the world that it proves that Christians are better people than atheists, I don't want to give that guy my money anymore. I'll find secular-run charities to donate to instead.

-k

[kimmy]

Still, let me be the first to wish everyone on MLW a Merry Christmas!

Yes, my favorite time of the year, when my ancestors gathered together to drink, feast, and celebrate their faith. Remember the reason for the season! Because if you're celebrating Yuletide without the Yulfuor, you've just got ... tide.

-k

[August1991]

This topic is very very topical right now, what with all of the persecution and the bigotry that Christians face each and every day in America!

Ironic?

I don't know about your world Kimmy but in my world, "Catholic" and Christian in general are taboo words. I know no one who admits to going to Mass. (Not true. I have a friend whose elderly father goes to church every Sunday.) I know someone younger who said that he went to Temple - but that's acceptable. OTOH, I know several young women who cover their hair, and not because they are nuns.

Kimmy, wherever you are in the BC hinterlands, you are not in modern western civilization as it is in this new millenium.

Christians aren't persecuted in North America.

Yes, they are.

BD, you - and people like you - want to rid society of Christians.

Edited November 18, 2011 by August1991

[August1991]

Thanks for providing such a perfect example of the mentality I was thinking of when I started this thread. You're presenting this as an example of a Christian being persecuted, but what it really is is an example of the sense of entitlement Christians feel in our society, and how they cry victim when their expectations of special treatment are not met.

Had the mayor been a Hindu, installed an idol of Ganesh in the city council chambers, and led ritual chanting before council meetings, nobody would be under the illusion that that was appropriate for city hall. So why, then, would Christians think that a crucifix and prayers belong in council chambers? Because Christians think they're entitled to special treatment that other faiths do not receive, and when they are thwarted they cry victim.

WTF?

Do you conclude that religion is merely a question of dominance, or victimhood? Someone is on top, and someone else is on the bottom?

----

On another thread, I posted a link to a French TV documentary about Norwegian politics. Norwegians are Lutherans, Protestant Christians. I have many reasons to disagree with Buddhists and Lutherans but I must admit that Lutherans make for honest democratic politicians and Buddhists make for happy if unoriginal people. (If Mozart had been born a Buddhist rather than a Christian, we never would have known his music.)

Kimmy (and Black Dog), religion matters.

Edited November 18, 2011 by August1991

[dre]

BD, you - and people like you - want to rid society of Christians.

Thats just silly hypbole of course

[August1991]

Thats just silly hypbole of course

dre, would you prefer a world without Christian thought? Without right and wrong? Edited November 18, 2011 by August1991

[dre]

dre, would you prefer a world without Christian thought? Without right and wrong?

Well human moral values dont come from Christianity. They predate it by thousands of years.

Would I prefer a world without Christian thought? I dont know! Never been to one.

Heres a list of the LEAST religious countries in the world.

http://www.kirainet.com/images/religiones.gif

And heres the top 20 countries with the highest standard of life.

Norway +

Iceland

Australia

Luxembourg

Canada +

Sweden +

Switzerland

Ireland

Belgium +

United States

Japan +

Netherlands +

Finland +

Denmark +

United Kingdom +

France +

Austria

Italy

New Zealand

Germany +

Theres quite a bit of overlap there. In fact MOST of the best places in the world to live are also the LEAST RELIGIOUS places. I put plus signs next to countries in the high standard of life list that are also very high on the "least religious" list.

But I would PREFER to live in a world with freedom of belief and thought. So the only way Id ever want to live in a world where nobody was Christian is if Christians just stopped believing on their own like we are starting to see in most advanced nations over time. Then I think I would be just fine with it.

I would miss the architecture most of all I think.

Edited November 18, 2011 by dre