MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) I mean, Christians praise him for all of his socialist traits. - Helping the poor - Accepting of everyone - Speaking against oppression of others - Assisting anyone down on their luck What is the rationalization? Is it willful ignorance? Edited November 6, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
eyeball Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 What is the rationalization? Is it willful ignorance? It must be an extension of the same suspension of disbelief that it took to overlook the darker irrational aspects of Christianity. Once you've gone down this road anything goes. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Shwa Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 Once you've gone down this road anything goes. Including a blonde and blue-eyed Jesus. Quote
Shady Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 I mean, Christians praise him for all of his socialist traits. - Helping the poor - Accepting of everyone - Speaking against oppression of others - Assisting anyone down on their luck What is the rationalization? Is it willful ignorance? This is a common misconception that has already been discussed in several other threads. Jesus wasn't about taking from one person and giving it to somebody else. Quote
Guest Manny Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 If we had some real smart and politically skilled Conservatives it would all make much more sense. But really, why do Christians vote for Conservatives and not Liberals? Simply because they know, Liberals like to lick shit-covered assholes. Metaphorically speaking, of course... Quote
Wild Bill Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 I mean, Christians praise him for all of his socialist traits. - Helping the poor - Accepting of everyone - Speaking against oppression of others - Assisting anyone down on their luck What is the rationalization? Is it willful ignorance? Your problem is one of definitions. Those are NOT specifically socialist traits! People of all political persuasions can still show good character. It is not exclusive to socialism, except perhaps in YOUR book! I might add that most people who call themselves socialists rarely do anything themselves to help the poor. Rather, they call for governments to do it for them! Money never comes from their own pocket. It comes from the collective pockets of all their fellow citizens, never asking them if they approve either! There is no virtue in donating OTHER PEOPLE"S money! It is interesting that Canada's level of PERSONAL charity contributions is embarrassingly low. Even the "evil, greedy Americans donate FAR more than we do out of their personal pocket! I'm stopping here, as I don't really feel I have the right to defend Christians. They can defend themselves. I'm actually a devout Agnostic! I just had to take exception with your rather unfair trick of an argument. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
olp1fan Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 There is no virtue in donating OTHER PEOPLE"S money! It is interesting that Canada's level of PERSONAL charity contributions is embarrassingly low. Even the "evil, greedy Americans donate FAR more than we do out of their personal pocket! Canadians have to pay higher taxes, pay for high heating bills half of the year whereas most Americans live in a warmer climate The stuff we buy is 13-20 more % higher in Canada than U.S, cost of living is higher in Canada than in the U.S basically Those are just a few reasons why Americans donate more of their money than Canadians however it is not because we are cheap people Quote
Topaz Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 If we had some real smart and politically skilled Conservatives it would all make much more sense. But really, why do Christians vote for Conservatives and not Liberals? Simply because they know, Liberals like to lick shit-covered assholes. Metaphorically speaking, of course... Yeah, but its all that garbage that Canadians have to eat from the Cons, that giving them diarrhea! Quote
dre Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) Your problem is one of definitions. Those are NOT specifically socialist traits! People of all political persuasions can still show good character. It is not exclusive to socialism, except perhaps in YOUR book! I might add that most people who call themselves socialists rarely do anything themselves to help the poor. Rather, they call for governments to do it for them! Money never comes from their own pocket. It comes from the collective pockets of all their fellow citizens, never asking them if they approve either! There is no virtue in donating OTHER PEOPLE"S money! It is interesting that Canada's level of PERSONAL charity contributions is embarrassingly low. Even the "evil, greedy Americans donate FAR more than we do out of their personal pocket! I'm stopping here, as I don't really feel I have the right to defend Christians. They can defend themselves. I'm actually a devout Agnostic! I just had to take exception with your rather unfair trick of an argument. I dunno WB. Jesus didnt merely say that the wealthy should throw a few table scraps to the poor. He said that if they want to get into heaven they should give up ALL their earthly treasure, and create wealth not here on earth but in the kingdom of god. And he said its almost impossible for a wealthy person to go to heaven. I dont think its necessarily a matter of Jesus being a "socialist". Thats a modern construct. But what I WOULD say is that Jesus had a completely different take on "wealth" than we have today. He taught that a persons "wealth" was a function of peoples deeds to each other, and that the kind of materialism we practice today was born from sin. So how would our society today view someone that lives by what Jesus taught? People with no interest in materialism, that own very little they dont need? They are looked opon with SCORN. That does not make Jesus a socialist, but most definately does suggest that modern christians have utterly disregarded Jesus's teachings in this area. Edited November 5, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 5, 2011 Author Report Posted November 5, 2011 I dunno WB. Jesus didnt merely say that the wealthy should throw a few table scraps to the poor. He said that if they want to get into heaven they should give up ALL their earthly treasure, and create wealth not here on earth but in the kingdom of god. And he said its almost impossible for a wealthy person to go to heaven. I dont think its necessarily a matter of Jesus being a "socialist". Thats a modern construct. But what I WOULD say is that Jesus had a completely different take on "wealth" than we have today. He taught that a persons "wealth" was a function of peoples deeds to each other, and that the kind of materialism we practice today was born from sin. So how would our society today view someone that lives by what Jesus taught? People with no interest in materialism, that own very little they dont need? They are looked opon with SCORN. That does not make Jesus a socialist, but most definately does suggest that modern christians have utterly disregarded Jesus's teachings in this area. But by doing deeds for ones other, for the greater good of society is the entire point of socialism. We pay extra taxes to support others and perform good deeds that we ourselves would not be able to enact. Even if you don't agree with labelling him a socialist, as he did not personally subscribe to that label, the teachings of Christ that we discuss are very close to that of socialism. We also should admit that the teachings are nearly the opposite of modern conservative ideology. Removing a workers right to strike? Forcing people back to work? Increasing the time spent in prison even if the individual could be ready to reintegrate earlier? Cut social services to reduce taxes on the wealthy? Casting out homosexuals? These are all policies that conservative ideologues promote! Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 ...We also should admit that the teachings are nearly the opposite of modern conservative ideology. Removing a workers right to strike? Forcing people back to work? Increasing the time spent in prison even if the individual could be ready to reintegrate earlier? Cut social services to reduce taxes on the wealthy? Casting out homosexuals? These are all policies that conservative ideologues promote! Oh sure...and let's not forget Jeseus Christ's ardent support for abortion on demand...paid for by taxpayers! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 But by doing deeds for ones other, for the greater good of society is the entire point of socialism. We pay extra taxes to support others and perform good deeds that we ourselves would not be able to enact. Even if you don't agree with labelling him a socialist, as he did not personally subscribe to that label, the teachings of Christ that we discuss are very close to that of socialism. We also should admit that the teachings are nearly the opposite of modern conservative ideology. Removing a workers right to strike? Forcing people back to work? Increasing the time spent in prison even if the individual could be ready to reintegrate earlier? Cut social services to reduce taxes on the wealthy? Casting out homosexuals? These are all policies that conservative ideologues promote! Again MCC, I'm not a religious man or a Christian so what do I really know about how Christians think? I was really just objecting to the idea that YOU can define acts of good character as SOLELY the province of socialists, according to a definition YOU had created! Believe it or not, there are kind and charitable conservatives, libertarians, marxists and probably even some fascists! Look at how many people totally misunderstand Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, being totally unable to understand how someone from her camp could help out a friend in need or contribute to some charity that improves society, or at least the neighbourhood. Self-interest is not exclusively about greed with money. It also means doing what makes YOU feel better! If you care about a friend it makes sense to help him. If you would rather have well behaved kids in your neighbourhood instead of juvenile delinquents then contributing to a community centre might make sense. The important factor is that it is the individual's choice, not something imposed on him. We should have the right to choose our charity! Not have our pockets picked by some nameless collective group that usually isn't even audited to make sure they're honest! When someone keeps resorting to building straw men I say they must live in a dream world. Even more, they simply lack tolerance! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
blueblood Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 I dunno WB. Jesus didnt merely say that the wealthy should throw a few table scraps to the poor. He said that if they want to get into heaven they should give up ALL their earthly treasure, and create wealth not here on earth but in the kingdom of god. And he said its almost impossible for a wealthy person to go to heaven. I dont think its necessarily a matter of Jesus being a "socialist". Thats a modern construct. But what I WOULD say is that Jesus had a completely different take on "wealth" than we have today. He taught that a persons "wealth" was a function of peoples deeds to each other, and that the kind of materialism we practice today was born from sin. So how would our society today view someone that lives by what Jesus taught? People with no interest in materialism, that own very little they dont need? They are looked opon with SCORN. That does not make Jesus a socialist, but most definately does suggest that modern christians have utterly disregarded Jesus's teachings in this area. Oh did they now? Parable of jesus Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Guest Manny Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Oh did they now? Parable of jesus I'm inclined to agree with the social critique by William R. Herzog. Quote
Guest Manny Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Also read about Sabbath Economics... a solution for modern times? Quote
cybercoma Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Your problem is one of definitions. Those are NOT specifically socialist traits! People of all political persuasions can still show good character. It is not exclusive to socialism, except perhaps in YOUR book! I might add that most people who call themselves socialists rarely do anything themselves to help the poor. Rather, they call for governments to do it for them! Money never comes from their own pocket. It comes from the collective pockets of all their fellow citizens, never asking them if they approve either! There is no virtue in donating OTHER PEOPLE"S money! It is interesting that Canada's level of PERSONAL charity contributions is embarrassingly low. Even the "evil, greedy Americans donate FAR more than we do out of their personal pocket! I'm stopping here, as I don't really feel I have the right to defend Christians. They can defend themselves. I'm actually a devout Agnostic! I just had to take exception with your rather unfair trick of an argument. Your argument doesn't make a lick of sense. You say socialists want to redistributes everyone's money, then say they want to distribute other people's money. Aside the glaring hole in your argument caused by the rich socialists, you fail to recognize that it's about EVERYONE contributing. Quote
Shady Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) But by doing deeds for ones other, for the greater good of society is the entire point of socialism. Not it isn't. What you're describing is charity, which religious people and organizations already partcipate in, and have been doing for decades and decades. That's much different than prescibing a federal government taking from somebody and giving it to somebody else. After of course filtering it through their bureaucracy and getting their cut of the proceeds first. Edited November 6, 2011 by Shady Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Posted November 6, 2011 I would like to thank the right wingers on this board for showing some good examples of rationalization. It's interesting to see first hand, whether you realized it or not. Even if you try to disqualify that Jesus was closer to a socialist, it doesn't change the fact that he would not have approved of the modern Conservative party. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 ...Even if you try to disqualify that Jesus was closer to a socialist, it doesn't change the fact that he would not have approved of the modern Conservative party. That's OK...we all know what happened to Jesus. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 I would like to thank the right wingers on this board for showing some good examples of rationalization. It's interesting to see first hand, whether you realized it or not. Even if you try to disqualify that Jesus was closer to a socialist, it doesn't change the fact that he would not have approved of the modern Conservative party. Did you ask him? Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted November 7, 2011 Report Posted November 7, 2011 Wouldn't describe Jesus as a socialist, but he did preach many of the traits in the OP. He certainly wasn't a believer in a dog-eat-dog society of self-reliance and selfishness. He was also a pacifist, and preached non-violence and forgiveness, something Christian conservative hawks have ass-backwards. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
blueblood Posted November 7, 2011 Report Posted November 7, 2011 Wouldn't describe Jesus as a socialist, but he did preach many of the traits in the OP. He certainly wasn't a believer in a dog-eat-dog society of self-reliance and selfishness. He was also a pacifist, and preached non-violence and forgiveness, something Christian conservative hawks have ass-backwards. Did you not read the parable of the servants and the talents I posted? Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Shwa Posted November 7, 2011 Report Posted November 7, 2011 Did you not read the parable of the servants and the talents I posted? I did and tend to go with Joachim Jeremias interpretation as a critique of contemporary religious leaders, as Jesus often did. But it comes down to interpretation and anyone that can spin Jesus as a blonde and blue eyed dude likely has the intellectual capacity to spin the Gospels into anything they want. Blame the Protestants. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 7, 2011 Report Posted November 7, 2011 Thanks for the profound Beavis quote. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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