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"No kids allowed!" -- Children in Restaurants


kimmy

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Guest American Woman

Nothing at all. I have a friend who hates kids too. I dont understand it, but at least she is upfront about it, as you are.

Personally I think there's something wrong with any baseless "hate" that's directed at any group as a whole.

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Personally I think there's something wrong with any baseless "hate" that's directed at any group as a whole.

Hate is harsh as I rather doubt Black Dog nor my friend 'hates' kids , just doesnt want to be bothered by them.

Oh and BD, the shopkeeper can claim on his insurance (maybe depending on wording), not so much your ruined dinner .....ya cranky bastard :P

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at the rate that restaurants go bankrupt most owners have no clue...only 20% of restaurants are still in business after 2 years...and only half of the 2 year survivors will be around in 5 years...

Those are comparable to statistics for any new business, so I would take that as an indicator of the difficulty of building a business, not an indictment of the intelligence of restauranteurs as a group.

However, as Dre notes, most restaurants don't have any no-kids policy anyway. Maybe if they sought ways to distinguish themselves from their competition, they'd have a better chance of surviving.

I suppose ...my biggest gripe is with the parents of unruly kids...how can they not know their kids are disturbing others, it would embarrass the crap out of me if my kids behaved badly and I'd haul them out of there, and I can only recall ever having to do that once...

Me and my brother did not act up in public. We learned at a very young age that while it did get you attention, it got you a very painful kind of attention. Mom was from the "if you want to cry, I'll give you something to cry about" school of child discipline.

However, that's become very old-fashioned. It's seen as barbaric. The sophisticated, modern parent of today knows better. The sophisticated, modern parent of today knows that a tantrum is a child's way of demanding attention, and she knows that if she acknowledges her child's tantrum she will just be encouraging more tantrums. That's why the sophisticated, modern parent of today knows that the best way to deal with tantrums is to do nothing at all.

I was at a nearby breakfast place one Sunday and two tables over were a mother and her little tyke. The mother was eating her breakfast, and the kid was demanding juice. "I don't want chocolate milk! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE!" And then kid started to ... I'm not even sure what the word is. "Bawl" suggests that there was emotion, but it was really just loud noise. The kid opened his mouth and made the loudest noise I've ever heard a human being make, for 10 straight minutes, and the mother did absofuckinglutely nothing. And after about 10 straight minutes of this, the proprietor came over and politely told her that her meal was on the house but she had to leave.

I was just astounded by what a sophisticated, modern parent she was.

I don't hate kids, but I'm sure starting to hate sophisticated, modern parents.

-k

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Not sure what you're getting at here. The "so what" is what we've been discussing. You asked "what do you think?" and we've been stating what we think; and what some of us think is that perhaps restaurants could deal with the issue on an individual basis, as called for, rather than ban the whole bunch. The "so what" is that people with well behaved kids are denied the right to dine there.

And why should I care? I mean, there's lots of very quiet and well-behaved people between the ages of 18 and 55, but nobody questions the idea of "55+" residences. Why should this be any different?

Yes, of course - because when I speak of losing the right to dine at certain establishments, I'm referring to "the constitutional right." :lol: Let me clarify: by "the right to dine there" I mean the opportunity to dine there, but I'm referring to it as "the right" because these people with well behaved kids have done nothing to warrant being banned from dining with their children.

You make it sound as if they're being denied something they're entitled to, and that's not really the case.

If your children were still toddlers, and you got to a restaurant and a sign on the door said "No children under 6" would you march in and demand your "rights" or would you take your business elsewhere?

Tell us how you really feel. <_< Interesting that earlier in this thread you said it was normal behavior for three year olds to "shriek" - that they weren't misbehaving, but just acting like a normal three year old. Now they're "shrieking brats?"

Yes. I feel that children of a certain age will yell and cry and shriek because that's just what they do. "Shrieking brats" might not be kind, but it's not inaccurate either.

I think that says a lot. That and Black Dog's "I hate kids." I think some people don't want kids around them because they simply don't like kids.

It's not that I hate kids. It's that I hate screaming and yelling and banging glasses on tables.

After I spend a day operating loud machinery the last thing I need is some kid pounding his glass on a table.

-k

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Lunch I can eat anywhere in any resto, dinnertime I have morals ;) and eat at resto's that are not generally populated by kids. They are there often times, but not a problem.

Why would you go looking for restaurants that aren't generally populated with kids, when you could go to any restaurant and the staff will simply deal with disruptive children on a case by case basis? :lol:

When children are running rampant in any resto, I said it is the parents who need to step up and deal with it.

Ok, and when the parent believes that the best way of "dealing with it" is to ignore it, what's your answer then? "Suck it up", as Remiel put it?

-k

Edited by kimmy
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But since we're all relying on anecdotes...I have never, not once in my 20-odd years of real dining, been disturbed by the "obnoxious drunk" that seems to dog the pro-child faction here so frequently.

I'm beginning to wonder if the "pro child faction" do all their dining in bars and lounges. It would fit the data... no trouble with obnoxious kids/parents, plenty of annoying drunks.

-k

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Actually both the kegs I go to advertise themselves as family restaurants and I see children there all the time. The waitresses at the one in Nanaimo sung happy birthday to my twins and gave them free desert.

I guess I don't notice them. To be fair, when I go to the Keg I'm usually in the lounge, and I'm usually not sober. I do recall wondering when they hired the midget waiters at one point, I can't really recall that clearly to be honest.

I thought it was obvious. Data on how much of a problem kids really are compared to teenagers (who are in my experience the loudest tables at any restaurant), and drunk adults. And nobody has to justify any policy... restaurant owners can do as they choose.

Yay! We agree. Ok, so having agreed to that, why do you care about "data" at all?

Ok. Ill take the the opinion of the 99.9 percent of restaurant owners that welcome children, and reserve the right to get rid of ANY unruly customers.

(...)

I dunno! Are the vast majority of restaurant owners that accomodate children not as smart as you? :lol:

The argument you're offering is like claiming that since the overwhelming majority of cars that are sold are 4-door models, manufacturers are foolish to offer 2-door models.

You're either too stubborn or too dense to grasp that toddlers aren't integral to the business model for every restaurant.

-k

Edited by kimmy
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However, that's become very old-fashioned. It's seen as barbaric. The sophisticated, modern parent of today knows better. The sophisticated, modern parent of today knows that a tantrum is a child's way of demanding attention, and she knows that if she acknowledges her child's tantrum she will just be encouraging more tantrums. That's why the sophisticated, modern parent of today knows that the best way to deal with tantrums is to do nothing at all.

I was at a nearby breakfast place one Sunday and two tables over were a mother and her little tyke. The mother was eating her breakfast, and the kid was demanding juice. "I don't want chocolate milk! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE!" And then kid started to ... I'm not even sure what the word is. "Bawl" suggests that there was emotion, but it was really just loud noise. The kid opened his mouth and made the loudest noise I've ever heard a human being make, for 10 straight minutes, and the mother did absofuckinglutely nothing. And after about 10 straight minutes of this, the proprietor came over and politely told her that her meal was on the house but she had to leave.

I was just astounded by what a sophisticated, modern parent she was.

I don't hate kids, but I'm sure starting to hate sophisticated, modern parents.

ya that drives everyone crazy, they need to told to leave...

on the other hand we (me included) shouldn't be too quick to blame the parent either...there are definitely bad parents but there also kids with extreme behaviour issues not the fault of the parent and no amount of discipline will change them...if you ever run into a kid with severe ODD it's a real eye opener and you can only sympathize with the parent must go through each day...

at one time in my life I worked in restaurant/bar as manager/bouncer...if patrons got out of control causing a disturbance they were asked to behave or leave (sometimes they left the hard way), doing the same with a family should be acceptable as well..

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I guess I don't notice them. To be fair, when I go to the Keg I'm usually in the lounge, and I'm usually not sober. I do recall wondering when they hired the midget waiters at one point, I can't really recall that clearly to be honest.

Yay! We agree. Ok, so having agreed to that, why do you care about "data" at all?

The argument you're offering is like claiming that since the overwhelming majority of cars that are sold are 4-door models, manufacturers are foolish to offer 2-door models.

You're either too stubborn or too dense to grasp that toddlers aren't integral to the business model for every restaurant.

-k

I guess I don't notice them. To be fair, when I go to the Keg I'm usually in the lounge, and I'm usually not sober. I do recall wondering when they hired the midget waiters at one point, I can't really recall that clearly to be honest.

Thats a good point and I touched on that earlier. Lots of restaurants have quiter areas, then more open public areas, lounges etc. Seems like a good plan to me.

Yay! We agree. Ok, so having agreed to that, why do you care about "data" at all?

I dont. But after reading a few very reactionary posts about how kids should be banned from good restaurants, I just pointed out that it would be a dumb thing to do on a whim or gut feeling. Restaurants are starved for customers right now, and a smart owner is going to going to take a good hard look whatever information he can find before he just waves his hand and bans part of his customer demographic because of what he "thinks" a small percentage of them "might" do.

The argument you're offering is like claiming that since the overwhelming majority of cars that are sold are 4-door models, manufacturers are foolish to offer 2-door models.

You're either too stubborn or too dense to grasp that toddlers aren't integral to the business model for every restaurant.

I dont deny that theres a niche for a very small percentage of restaurants, only catering to adults. Hell Im sure that in a huge city a restaurant or two could be successful if they banned anyone that wasnt a 6 foot tall lesbian.

But the way I read the restaurant industry right now, I dont expect to see much of this. 65% of the restaurants in my town are for sale right now, and theyre more than half empty pretty much every night. Its a tough business to be in, and theyre pretty much happy when ANYONE walks in the door.

Beyond that it just conflicts with my sense of fairness. I like the idea of a meritocracy where people are held to account for their actions not their attributes. And for whatever reason Iv just had diferent experiences than you. I also probably have a thicker skin about that kinda stuff. I CHUCKLE when I see kids goofin off usually. It would take a pretty serious scene to ruin my dinner.

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let's not call it banning let's be PC and call age restrictions...

I'm tempmted to say "BAN the little bastards!" but resturants have ways to discourage parents with kids from coming, if they still come and misbehave they can be asked to leave just as anyone else would be...

I've 4 kids but 3 are adults now, the young one is exceptionally well behaved I can take him anywhere...

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Can we get a role call where we each type our position (BAN KIDS or ALLOW KIDS) and a YES or NO if you actually have kids or not?

Does a yes vote mean that you don't believe any restaurant should have a "no kids" policy?

And if so, what do you propose be done about it? Are talking about shaking your finger at them and saying "no fair!" or do you want to see some sort of legal action taken?

-k

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Why would you go looking for restaurants that aren't generally populated with kids,

I don't .

I go to restaurants that have interesting food and my life and work schedule dictates I go later in the evening. I imagine some kids are in there earlier with exception of the high end joints.

Ok, and when the parent believes that the best way of "dealing with it" is to ignore it, what's your answer then? "Suck it up", as Remiel put it?

-k

Complain obviously , and or walk out. Restaurant owners aint dumb. (well generally.)

wyly

at the rate that restaurants go bankrupt most owners have no clue...only 20% of restaurants are still in business after 2 years...and only half of the 2 year survivors will be around in 5 years...

Actually only 1 in 4 fail in first year (23%) and in second year its 14%, 3rd yr is 7%

http://www.restaurantowner.com/public/263.cfm

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Does a yes vote mean that you don't believe any restaurant should have a "no kids" policy?

And if so, what do you propose be done about it? Are talking about shaking your finger at them and saying "no fair!" or do you want to see some sort of legal action taken?

-k

No no it means the position you have been taking here... That it would be nice of SOME restaurants had no kids. I just want to see if this breaks down perfectly between parents and non parents.

And if so, what do you propose be done about it? Are talking about shaking your finger at them and saying "no fair!" or do you want to see some sort of legal action taken?

No. I think they can do what they want.

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Guest American Woman

Hate is harsh as I rather doubt Black Dog nor my friend 'hates' kids , just doesnt want to be bothered by them.

You said your friend hates kids too, but perhaps you chose the wrong word. As for Black Dog, I'm taking his word for it:

Point is, I hate kids and any measure to keep them out of my face is a welcome one.

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Guest American Woman

Ah, but my dislike of children is far from baseless.

No it isn't. Not when you "hate" the whole because of the behavior/actions of some. That's the justification bigots/racists/et al give for their hate of the whole - race/religion/et al.

Edited by American Woman
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I'd also say it's a bit of buyer beware .. Molly's Family Diner, means the family will be there including kids. Don't like kids? Don't visit that restaurant.

Kids cry, kids make a fuss, it's part of being a kid. But overall much has to do with how the parents raise their kids to be good when in a public place. My sister and I never made a fuss when we were kids, we knew that Dad would slap our asses if we got out of line ...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bottom-line is that if you as a parent cannot get your child to act respectable in public, then you should not bring them to a restaurant. Sticking around a restaurant and not leaving if your kid is throwing a tantrum, banging plates, being boisterous, or running around is just plain rude to the other customers. Anyone that did these things would be thrown out, but because it's a child it's supposed to be acceptable? Ok. A kid is going to do these things, but if you can't put an end to it right away and teach your kid to stop or get your kid to stop, you should do the respectable thing and leave. If you just allow your child to carry one like an animal in public, then you deserve to be treated like you're dragging around... well... an animal in public.

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Well, I have two kids (now 13 and 14) and they can behave in any setting. Actually, we never ever had any problems at any time (someone mentioned the "dad would slap our asses" approach).

My vote is that any restaurant should be able to ban any age group they want. The fanciest place my kids ever ate when they were really young was Kelsey's. I would never have dreamed of taking them to Von's or Hy's (in Edmonton). Those places are designed for a "better" crowd (and their prices prove it). I don't want to hear anyone's kids screaming while I'm running up the Visa.

And we all need to admit that, although they SHOULD, very, very, very few managers/supervisors are going to ask a family to leave because they run the risk of ending up on the front of a newspaper or in a blog as being "unreasonable and rude". Only in EXTREME cases would families with kids be told to go away...so the rest of us (paying customers that don't cause a problem) have to suffer.

For years, if the wife (girlfriend at the time) and I wanted to go out to a nice place, we always looked for a restaurant with a separate lounge that served the full menu. Why? Cause we didn't want to have to listen to some "progressive parent" try to reason with a two year old ankle-biter.

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On the whole, I'm inclined to support the "children-not-exactly-welcome" policy in select venues. I've got three kids, and reckless misbehaviour that was annoying to strangers was an immediate recipe for withdrawal. They learned quickly.

It's good manners.

However, some people think that a three year old talking a little too loudly or something is "bad behaviour" connoting "bad parenting," or something. I can't do anything about the grievously hypersensitive among us; thankfully, very few people seem to fit this bill.

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And we all need to admit that, although they SHOULD, very, very, very few managers/supervisors are going to ask a family to leave because they run the risk of ending up on the front of a newspaper or in a blog as being "unreasonable and rude". Only in EXTREME cases would families with kids be told to go away...so the rest of us (paying customers that don't cause a problem) have to suffer.

Indeed. Only in the worst cases do restaurants actually do anything.

Some parents-- dre's comments here make it clear that he's one-- don't see what the big issue is because it's just kids being kids and that's what kids are like and they don't think they're inconveniencing anybody else.

Customers are reluctant to complain until the situation becomes unbearable.

And the restaurants are reluctant to turf a paying customer, especially if they've already made the food.

So the net result is that everybody grins and bears it. The whole idea that restaurants should let everybody in and just deal with problems case by case is flawed because the actual dealing with problems is rarely done and certainly not in a timely fashion.

...

-k

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I have no problem with no kids allowed policies.

I have no problem with no smoking on public property policies.

People shouldn't be forced to be exposed to elements they find unsavoury.

Go to the family restaurant if you don't mind kids. Take the family designated flight if you have a family. They could easily justify the no kids rule by putting on a 14A movie for a flight or equivalent. If I wasn't travelling with kids I wouldn't want to be watching G movies on the flight.

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  • 3 years later...

http://www.wthr.com/story/29585098/maine-restaurant-owner-under-fire-for-yelling-at-2-year-old-customer

PORTLAND, Maine -

The owner of Marcy's Diner in Portland, Maine is coming under fire for snapping at a young girl in her restaurant Saturday.

"I might snap and I do scream at times, but that's all it is... leaning over the counter and yelling," said restaurant owner Darla Neugebauer.

She said she snapped Saturday at a young girl and it all started when her parents ordered some pancakes for her.

"They ordered three for this kid, a two-year old," Neugebauer said. "Three pancakes bigger than her head. And then they didn't even feed them to her."

Neugebauer said the pancakes were out of the girl's reach. She wanted to eat them, but Neugebauer claims her parents weren't letting her have them. The girl started crying loudly.

Neugebauer aid she asked the group to leave, or take the girl outside, but they didn't. The girl continued to cry, Neugebauer said, lasting nearly an hour.

The restaurant owner said she had had enough.

"All I said was... I slammed my hands on the counter and said this needs to stop, meaning her screaming and I pointed at her," Neugebauer said. "And she looked at me and she stopped. And her parents said 'are you screaming at a child?' 'Yes I am. And she shut up.'"

Neugebauer got what she wanted, but the girl's parents are upset, leaving a comment on the diner's Facebook page calling what happened there "the worst experience."

Do you know what's also "the worst experience" going to a restaurant and being subjected to children making the dining experience horrible.

The internet has given people the arena to permanently shame people who don't ascribe to their worldview. It's about time a business person didn't cower in fear from people who think that they can go to a public place and act in any way they want and not be questioned.

This new generation of parents are like this. They believe the world should adapt to them. Their kids are flawless and no one can say shit to them.

This story is a breath of fresh air. I hope this business owner sees an increase in business for how she handled the situation.

Edited by Boges
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