"No kids allowed!" -- Children in Restaurants

[Bonam]

Teenagers can eat ya. I thought we were talking about 6 yearolds though and under. A double rum and coke costs more than a burger and fries at a lot of family restaurants.

If Im a restaurant owner Id rather seat 4 hungry construction workers than a woman with 3 5 or 6 yearolds.

If young kids WERE running up the big tabs, you can be sure proprietors would think twice about banning them.

Well obviously the (alcoholic) drinks are where the real profit is made, and kids can't drink those. Restaurants don't make that much off food from what I've heard, mostly off the drinks. I was merely objecting to your assertion that kids don't eat much. 3 and 4 year olds may not each much but by the time they get to 6 or 7 they can eat tons, at least from my experience.

[dre]

Well obviously the (alcoholic) drinks are where the real profit is made, and kids can't drink those. Restaurants don't make that much off food from what I've heard, mostly off the drinks. I was merely objecting to your assertion that kids don't eat much. 3 and 4 year olds may not each much but by the time they get to 6 or 7 they can eat tons, at least from my experience.

Fair enough. My kids are 9 and they never stop eating. They can eat some pretty huge portions too when one of their favorite foods is for dinner.

[BC_chick]

Well, seeing how I don't know too many kids under six who carry around picture ID with proof of age, I would have to say that this restaurant is making more of a gesture than it is a policy. A gesture, I might add, which I'm kind of conflicted about.

Sure, screaming babies drive me as crazy as the next person, but screaming babies are not the only patrons that do that. Just a couple of days ago it was a little-league team that I was sitting across. They were all well over six, but loud and annoying nontheless. Then there's the drunk table... and the teenager table. So many types of people could ruin a meal, not just the tables with babies or young children.

While I completely believe any establishment has a right to ban children, I think it's better business if they made it policy to ask a table to leave when they are being a disturbance to other tables.

Not all kids are badly behaved and not all those over six are well-behaved. Why not assess each situation on its own?

ETA - But if more of this starts popping up, I'm going in the fake-kiddie-ID business. You heard it here first!

Edited August 12, 2011 by BC_chick

[wyly]

Funny but the few times Iv gotten really annoyed by the behavior of other patrons in a bar or restaurant they are almost ALWAYS teenagers or adults... Usually pretty drunk.

hang out in those types of places and that's what you get...

But lets face it. Kids are a pretty easy demographic to go after. They dont make much money, and they dont eat or drink very much or purchase expensive alcholic drinks.

meal prices for kids are not inexpensive, I've no problem breaking $100 for for a family meal... Edited August 12, 2011 by wyly

[kimmy]

I was at a restaurant in Vancouver with my girlfriend and her folks. A few tables over, there was a family-two parents, grandparents and a child of about 3 or 4. The kid was running around the place and periodically uttering shrill shrieks while mom and dad and grammy and gramps sat by doing nothing. Eventually the manager went over and spoke to them, but they still made no effort to reign in their precious darling snowflake, so the manager went back and sent the lot of them packing, much the consternation of the father who spewed invective all the way out the door. The manager, to his credit, responded with a smile and some free advice "Get a babysitter." It was fantastic and all too rare.

That's awesome! I hope you left a nice tip.

I think a ban on parents who cannot deal with their kids would be more appropriate. I mean, to a reasonable extent, babies cry, and young children too. People who cannot suck it up in limited amounts should stop acting like babies themselves, .

I *can* tolerate annoying screaming toddlers if I have to.

I *can* tolerate Kraft Dinner and hot-dogs if I have to.

The question is, why should I have to?

If I'm spending the money to go to a restaurant, I'm not going there to "tolerate" the experience. I'm not going there for Kraft Dinner and hot-dogs. I'm not going there for annoying screaming toddlers either. I'm going there to have a pleasant experience, not to test my ability to manage stress.

People have had to "suck it up" for ages. And now they're being given the option of not having to "suck it up" anymore, and they're voting with their feet and their wallets. And it appears to me that it's the parents of toddlers who are the ones acting like babies.

Why are they complaining? Why would they begrudge everybody else a quiet evening out? Are they mad at being excluded? Are they determined that since they have to suffer their shrieking offspring the rest of us should have to as well because misery loves company? Why can't they just "suck it up" and go to one of the many restaurants that do cater to families with young children?

Which brings me to another point - it's other people's kids who will be your doctors, your armed forces, your police force, your fire department, your everything. You will have the benefit of other people having put in the time and expense to raise kids that are your future. So if you have to listen to one of those kids in a restaurant/public venue now and then, cry me a river.

Yes yes, like you and Whitney Houston I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. However, that needn't mean I have to hang out with them.

We have women-only fitness clubs. We have men-only golf clubs. We have luxurious "55+" apartment buildings and gated communities. You're admonishing people for not wanting to spend an hour with children who might grow up to be doctors or nurses or policemen some day.

What about people who have chosen to live their whole lives in buildings and communities that bar the people who are their doctors and nurses and policemen *right now*?

Nobody seems to bat an eye at the idea of luxury "55+" condominiums, yet the idea that people shouldn't be able to spend an hour without shrieking toddlers is apparently an outrage. Why is that?

How are kids to learn appropriate behavior if they are never given opportunities?

The guy who wrote the 3rd article I linked to made the same argument:

If a child is only allowed in restaurants that have a children’s menu (which too many times contains unhealthy, fried, processed food), how will a child ever learn proper adult restaurant etiquette, let alone recognize quality food?

It strikes me as really silly.

We don't let toddlers drive. How will they ever learn?? Well, we let children learn to drive once they're mature enough. Maybe people should hold off attempting teach their children how to behave in a restaurant until such time as the child is old enough to obey simple commands like "stop shouting" and mature enough to go an hour without a tantrum. Why take a kid to an adult restaurant before they're mature enough to do either of those things? It's only going to end badly. What's the rush, anyway?

How can you teach your children to act appropriately in a restaurant if they're not allowed to go to "adult restaurants"? Take them to a family restaurant. Are there any rules for proper behavior that you can teach your kids at the Cactus Club that you can't teach them at Pizza Hut or IHOP?

Is there some sort of fear that normal well-behaved kids are going to freak out and start screaming and crying if they sit down at a restaurant and the setting has a second fork? Is the salad fork so bewildering to children that they need to become acclimatized to it at an early age?

No, no, no. Kids don't need to be plunged into adult dining from infancy to learn how to conduct themselves properly. Kids who have learned to behave themselves at the IHOP and the Pizza Hut will do just fine when they're taken to a place a little fancier, and if they're confused about the second fork, you can explain the idea of a salad fork and they'll understand.

-k

[dre]

I *can* tolerate annoying screaming toddlers if I have to.

I *can* tolerate Kraft Dinner and hot-dogs if I have to.

The question is, why should I have to?

You shouldnt have to tolerate disruptive adults either. Disruptive or unruly patrons should be asked to leave, and I think restaurants already have a ton of discretion here.

In general though I dont like the idea of banning a whole class of people based on what they might do. Theres a question of fairness... responsible families and well behaved kids get caught in the same net as the shit disturbers. And it doesnt do much for patrons that want peace and quiet anyways because in my experience teenagers or drunken adults are just as disruptive and unruly.

Besides that Its just not an issuee for me. I havent had my dinner out ruined by someone elses kids in a long long time. Most parents have no interest in making a spectacle of themselves or disruption other patrons. When my kids were young I was acutely aware of this. If they started causing a fuss I would immediately take them outside.

Edited August 13, 2011 by dre

[Maudit]

I think that the real question his: Do the kids really matter about it? In fact, I don't think a kid will makes the difference between a five stars restaurant and McDonald... So why bring them into a great restaurant?

[Oleg Bach]

Put valium in their pizza and duct tape them to a chair.

[Oleg Bach]

I think that the real question his: Do the kids really matter about it? In fact, I don't think a kid will makes the difference between a five stars restaurant and McDonald... So why bring them into a great restaurant?

How about making them sit at the little table and eat soya hot dogs on bad white bread while the parents feast on lobster?

[Guest American Woman]

Yes yes, like you and Whitney Houston I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. However, that needn't mean I have to hang out with them.

I have no idea what your Whitney Houston comment is in reference to - and I really don't care, so no need to explain - but my point wasn't "children are our future, treat them well, etc......" That's not what I was saying at all.

We have women-only fitness clubs. We have men-only golf clubs. We have luxurious "55+" apartment buildings and gated communities. You're admonishing people for not wanting to spend an hour with children who might grow up to be doctors or nurses or policemen some day.

That's not what I was doing at all.

What about people who have chosen to live their whole lives in buildings and communities that bar the people who are their doctors and nurses and policemen *right now*?

What about them?

Nobody seems to bat an eye at the idea of luxury "55+" condominiums, yet the idea that people shouldn't be able to spend an hour without shrieking toddlers is apparently an outrage. Why is that?

Since I said I can understand higher end restaurants banning kids, perhaps you're asking the wrong person? But as I also pointed out, age doesn't equal "shrieking." Hence the rest of my comments, which you don't appear to have addressed.

The guy who wrote the 3rd article I linked to made the same argument:

It strikes me as really silly.

Whether it strikes you as really silly or not, there's truth to it. Kids can't learn how to behave outside or their home unless they are given opportunities outside of the home.

We don't let toddlers drive. How will they ever learn??

Speaking of "really silly" ..............

Well, we let children learn to drive once they're mature enough. Maybe people should hold off attempting teach their children how to behave in a restaurant until such time as the child is old enough to obey simple commands like "stop shouting" and mature enough to go an hour without a tantrum. Why take a kid to an adult restaurant before they're mature enough to do either of those things? It's only going to end badly. What's the rush, anyway?

Some children under 6 would behave just fine in such a setting while other children over 6 wouldn't. While some adults aren't too well mannered. While, as has been pointed out, some teens aren't the most pleasant to be around. My point is - and I repeat that I can understand high end restaurants banning kids - that it might be a better solution to hold the parents responsible and ask them to leave if they can't control their kids. It's not about it being "a rush" to bring children to a nice restaurant - it's about the parents having the right to enjoy such an atmosphere if their children do behave.

How can you teach your children to act appropriately in a restaurant if they're not allowed to go to "adult restaurants"? Take them to a family restaurant. Are there any rules for proper behavior that you can teach your kids at the Cactus Club that you can't teach them at Pizza Hut or IHOP?

I would say that many adults act differently at a high end restaurant than they do at Pizza Hut or IHOP, but my comment about children learning by experience followed my comment that I hope the world doesn't become too kid un-friendly. And I stand by that. Kids are part of our world, too. If we want nothing to do with them, if we want to ban them from our world, then we have no right to bitch if the next generation turns out badly.

Is there some sort of fear that normal well-behaved kids are going to freak out and start screaming and crying if they sit down at a restaurant and the setting has a second fork? Is the salad fork so bewildering to children that they need to become acclimatized to it at an early age?

It's that atmosphere that requires different behavior, not the second fork.

No, no, no. Kids don't need to be plunged into adult dining from infancy to learn how to conduct themselves properly.

Did you even read what I posted? I'm not going to waste my time responding to something I didn't say.

Kids who have learned to behave themselves at the IHOP and the Pizza Hut will do just fine when they're taken to a place a little fancier, and if they're confused about the second fork, you can explain the idea of a salad fork and they'll understand.

Yes, because it's all about the second fork. again.

[Guest American Woman]

That's the plan.

Good plan. I approve.

They'll also be tomorrow's robbers, rapists, murderers and politicians. What's your point?

If you honestly didn't get my point, there's no sense wasting my time attempting to explain. Just stick to your plan - that can be your contribution to the future of the world.

I will. Loudly. At the table next to yours. See how you like it.

I could choose to let it get to me or choose to ignore it - same as I do your whining on this forum. Or I could complain to the manager, and if the manager does nothing about it, make it clear that they've lost a customer. Hence my previous comments about holding the parents responsible for the behavior of their children.

How about they learn at home?

Already covered that above ...........

[kimmy]

What about people who have chosen to live their whole lives in buildings and communities that bar the people who are their doctors and nurses and policemen *right now*?

What about them?

Indeed, what about them? The parents of toddlers are portraying themselves as modern day Rosa Parks types who are being denied their civil rights. But the truth is that excluding people from private venues based on arbitrary criteria is an accepted norm in our society and nobody has seen fit to complain until now, except for the lady who howls about Augusta Country Club every year and that kook who sued to be allowed into Spa Lady.

Since I said I can understand higher end restaurants banning kids, perhaps you're asking the wrong person? But as I also pointed out, age doesn't equal "shrieking." Hence the rest of my comments, which you don't appear to have addressed.

Earlier in the thread, Remiel and Oleg and Moonlight said that crying and shrieking are just natural behaviors for toddlers and people should just accept it.

And you and Dr Dre and BC Chick argue that badly-behaved people come in all ages and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

I agree with all of you.

To Remiel and Oleg and Moonlight, I say that yes, crying and shrieking is pretty normal for toddlers, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should have to endure it when we go out for an evening.

To you and Dre and Chick, I say that I'm completely in favor of booting out badly behaved patrons whether they're 3 or 13 or 30. (You can't imagine how many badly behaved patrons I've removed from establishments during my career in serving!) However, a 3 year old who is screaming and crying isn't a badly behaved patron, he's a 3 year old. He's doing what 3 year olds do. If he's shrieking and behaving badly in an adult dining environment, it's not his fault because he just shouldn't be there in the first place.

Whether it strikes you as really silly or not, there's truth to it. Kids can't learn how to behave outside or their home unless they are given opportunities outside of the home.

My parents didn't attempt to take me and my little brother to fine dining places until we were old enough to actually appreciate the experience. I think we were probably something like 8 and 10 when we first went to a "nice" restaurant.

Amazingly, we didn't shriek or cry or have tantrums, because 8 and 10 year olds don't shriek or cry or have tantrums when they're confronted with an extra fork or a different atmosphere. We conducted ourselves just fine, because we had already learned all of the important rules, like "listen to mommy", as well as basic good manners that every child should know by that age.

The idea that kids can't learn to behave themselves unless they get taken to upscale restaurants is just so ridiculous.

Some children under 6 would behave just fine in such a setting while other children over 6 wouldn't. While some adults aren't too well mannered. While, as has been pointed out, some teens aren't the most pleasant to be around. My point is - and I repeat that I can understand high end restaurants banning kids - that it might be a better solution to hold the parents responsible and ask them to leave if they can't control their kids. It's not about it being "a rush" to bring children to a nice restaurant - it's about the parents having the right to enjoy such an atmosphere if their children do behave.

They could get a babysitter, and have some consideration for other stressed out parents who got babysitters so that they could relax for an evening without shrieking children.

I would say that many adults act differently at a high end restaurant than they do at Pizza Hut or IHOP, but my comment about children learning by experience followed my comment that I hope the world doesn't become too kid un-friendly. And I stand by that. Kids are part of our world, too. If we want nothing to do with them, if we want to ban them from our world, then we have no right to bitch if the next generation turns out badly.

The world is absolutely full of opportunities for kids to learn by experience without them invading fine dining restaurants.

-k

Edited August 14, 2011 by kimmy

[cybercoma]

yup I'm all for it, I've taken my kids home when they couldn't be restrained, I wouldn't appreciate if someone else's kids acted like that so I didn't inflict it others...get a baby sitter or go to McDonalds...

there are already restaurants here that don't allow anyone under 18 so it's not a big leap to ban the yard-apes and rug-rats as well...

Yard apes!?

[cybercoma]

I think a lot of times when you go to a decent restaurant, a lot of the couples that are there probably have their own children that are being watched by a babysitter. Perhaps they are there to get away from being a parent for a couple hours and are looking for a nice relaxing dinner. Instead, the Joneses have brought little Billy with them who is screaming and throwing food around. This is exactly what many of the people have gone to this restaurant to escape. I can't say I would be too impressed either if I got a babysitter, decided to go out for a couple hours and still felt like I was in parent mode.

[Guest American Woman]

Indeed, what about them? The parents of toddlers are portraying themselves as modern day Rosa Parks types who are being denied their civil rights. But the truth is that excluding people from private venues based on arbitrary criteria is an accepted norm in our society and nobody has seen fit to complain until now, except for the lady who howls about Augusta Country Club every year and that kook who sued to be allowed into Spa Lady.

Evidently I missed the parents of toddlers/Rosa Parks connection. That's right out of the blue regarding any discussion I've had in this thread thus far.

Earlier in the thread, Remiel and Oleg and Moonlight said that crying and shrieking are just natural behaviors for toddlers and people should just accept it.

And you and Dr Dre and BC Chick argue that badly-behaved people come in all ages and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

I agree with all of you.

To Remiel and Oleg and Moonlight, I say that yes, crying and shrieking is pretty normal for toddlers, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should have to endure it when we go out for an evening.

To you and Dre and Chick, I say that I'm completely in favor of booting out badly behaved patrons whether they're 3 or 13 or 30. (You can't imagine how many badly behaved patrons I've removed from establishments during my career in serving!) However, a 3 year old who is screaming and crying isn't a badly behaved patron, he's a 3 year old. He's doing what 3 year olds do. If he's shrieking and behaving badly in an adult dining environment, it's not his fault because he just shouldn't be there in the first place.

I never said it was the child's fault - I said the parents should be held accountable and be asked to leave. Furthermore, the ban isn't just for three year olds - it's for anyone under 6. I pointed out that not all children in that age group would be shrieking in a restaurant, that parents of children who do behave are being denied dinner out with their kid(s) because the manager isn't dealing with the parents who allow disruptive behavior.

My parents didn't attempt to take me and my little brother to fine dining places until we were old enough to actually appreciate the experience. I think we were probably something like 8 and 10 when we first went to a "nice" restaurant.

Amazingly, we didn't shriek or cry or have tantrums, because 8 and 10 year olds don't shriek or cry or have tantrums when they're confronted with an extra fork or a different atmosphere.

Yet my daughters had fine dining experiences before that and didn't shriek or cry or have tantrums either - even when *gasp* confronted with the extra fork.

We conducted ourselves just fine, because we had already learned all of the important rules, like "listen to mommy", as well as basic good manners that every child should know by that age.

And a lot of kids know that before the age of 6, which was one of the points I was making, where lots of children haven't learned that even after 6. Another point I've made. So some kids under the age of 6 ill conduct themselves just fine, yet they and their parents are being denied the experience.

The idea that kids can't learn to behave themselves unless they get taken to upscale restaurants is just so ridiculous.

I don't know if you're being purposely obtuse or what, but I'm not going to clarify what I've actually said yet again.

They could get a babysitter, and have some consideration for other stressed out parents who got babysitters so that they could relax for an evening without shrieking children.

Again I have to wonder if you're being purposely obtuse. I'll repeat yet again:... it's about the parents having the right to enjoy such an atmosphere if their children do behave.

The world is absolutely full of opportunities for kids to learn by experience without them invading fine dining restaurants.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Again I have to wonder if you're being purposely obtuse. I'll repeat yet again:... it's about the parents having the right to enjoy such an atmosphere if their children do behave.

Sometimes it not even the kids...adults with portable devices / phones have also become a pain in the ass, and not just in restaurants. Somehow these people have assumed their personal space and behaviours extend into public venues.

[Guest American Woman]

Sometimes it not even the kids...adults with portable devices / phones have also become a pain in the ass, and not just in restaurants. Somehow these people have assumed their personal space and behaviours extend into public venues.

Excellent point. And why is it that so many people feel the need to increase the volume of their voice tenfold when talking on a cell phone?

[bush_cheney2004]

[Black Dog]

Good plan. I approve.

If only your parents were so forward-thinking.

If you honestly didn't get my point, there's no sense wasting my time attempting to explain. Just stick to your plan - that can be your contribution to the future of the world.

Now, I get the point: as usual, it's completely fatuous.

I could choose to let it get to me or choose to ignore it - same as I do your whining on this forum. Or I could complain to the manager, and if the manager does nothing about it, make it clear that they've lost a customer. Hence my previous comments about holding the parents responsible for the behavior of their children.

If I'm running a restaurant, do I want to bother dealing with the headache of ill-behaved children, irate patrons and the inevitable scene when the time comes to send them packing? Eff that. Keep the little bastards out altogether and save the setting for someone who'll actually pay and finish their meal.

Already covered that above ...........

There's nothing beyond your say so to indicate children need to actually eat in decent (and I'm not talking Michelin starred shit here) establishments to know how to behave. It's a non-starter.

[dre]

If I'm running a restaurant, do I want to bother dealing with the headache of ill-behaved children, irate patrons and the inevitable scene when the time comes to send them packing? Eff that. Keep the little bastards out altogether and save the setting for someone who'll actually pay and finish their meal.

Yeah chances are you WOULD want to allow children, and thats why most restaurants do. Hell... lots of them even openly advertise their family friendliness.

The last thing any businessman wants to do is shink his potentional customer demographic by banning people who havent caused any problems. Especially since not one shred of data has been introduced here.

If you go jumping to conclusions like this then chances are any business you own wont last a year.

BTW! If you ban all your customers youre guaranteed to have a very quiet and undisruptive environment.

[treehugger]

Children that cry, scream, shriek and run around in public place is NOT natural behaviour. It is the behaviour of children that have never been taught any manners and what they can and cannot do in the public.

It's parents that sit in their rear ends while their kids are tearing around like like something deranged instead of getting up right away, paying their bill and taking their brats home and telling them why they are going home and they won't be going out again until they learn how to behave..

[Black Dog]

Yeah chances are you WOULD want to allow children, and thats why most restaurants do. Hell... lots of them even openly advertise their family friendliness.

It all depends on what you're going for. if you're running a serious restaurant, chances are banning kids under a certain age won't hurt you.

The last thing any businessman wants to do is shink his potentional customer demographic by banning people who havent caused any problems. Especially since not one shred of data has been introduced here.

If you go jumping to conclusions like this then chances are any business you own wont last a year.

Everyone has stories about kids causing problems at restaurants. I guarantee I've seen more incidences of loud obnoxious kids than adults (notwithstanding the silent insult of those who wear their hats at the table).

[dre]

It all depends on what you're going for. if you're running a serious restaurant, chances are banning kids under a certain age won't hurt you.

Everyone has stories about kids causing problems at restaurants. I guarantee I've seen more incidences of loud obnoxious kids than adults (notwithstanding the silent insult of those who wear their hats at the table).

Well thats my point... the data that you would base this decision on... is "everone has stories".

I only eat out about once a month but I can honestly tell you that this is pretty much a non issue the vast majority of the time.

We are in a recession now, and restaurants are having a pretty tough time. Banning entire customer demographics is not an intelligent thing you do, which again is why very very few restaurants will be adopting this policy. Seems to me that for most restaurants it would make more sense to seat kids in a separate section than their more conservative guests.

Edited August 16, 2011 by dre

[Black Dog]

We are in a recession now, and restaurants are having a pretty tough time. Banning entire customer demographics is not an intelligent thing you do, which again is why very very few restaurants will be adopting this policy.

Children aren't a customer demographic. Their parents are still permitted to eat out...without their offspring.

Also, many restaurants, especially fine dining establishments, are implicitly child-free. Clearly there's a market being served there.

[guyser]

Children aren't a customer demographic.

Au contraire ! Apart from any high end restaurant , or financial centre resto, kids are a prime target as they will need parents to pay and they make money off the meals they order , along w the booze.

Also, many restaurants, especially fine dining establishments, are implicitly child-free. Clearly there's a market being served there.

Of course!

They are that way if not by design then by the habits of parents who attend there. No one makes a 6PM reservation for Canoe , 8 is the preferred time. And kids of the crying and carrying on age are not up at that time.

Parents can and do and need to be able to take children in to at least 'nicer' restaurants to teach them the manners required and to practice what they may very well have been taight at home ( I was )

But the issue is not kids, it is parents who refuse to budge to discipline the kid who is out of control.