"No kids allowed!" -- Children in Restaurants

[capricorn]

22 minutes ago, kimmy said:

 

In my experience, a lot the old-people dialogue veers more towards hate-filled than childishly ill-informed.

 -k

That's probably because they were not killed while they were younger fighting off a cougar and they're pissed off because of it. A number of my geriatric relatives have said to me "don't grow old in this country".

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Ya, I can't count the number of times I've heard some version of that. Probably said something like it myself at some time long ago. It's amazing how that point of view changes as people get older and they realize that still being alive ain't so bad after all and it really does beat the hell out of the alternative.

With me it was empty revolvers, sabre drawn.  I still wouldn't mind, after I reach triple figures. 

[Wilber]

14 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

With me it was empty revolvers, sabre drawn.  I still wouldn't mind, after I reach triple figures. 

Like that. I would say I'll get a sabre now and start practicing so we can have at it, but I guess the idea is to lose.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Like that. I would say I'll get a sabre now and start practicing so we can have at it, but I guess the idea is to lose.

Yeah, kinda like Laurence Harvey in "The Alamo".

[Argus]

2 hours ago, kimmy said:

In my experience, a lot the old-people dialogue veers more towards hate-filled than childishly ill-informed.

Seriously? What do you classify as 'hate-filled'? Because I've never met anyone I would regard as 'hate filled' and though I don't go near the alt-right web sites the only language I've heard online which could possibly fall into that category is some of the only slightly camouflaged references to Jews and 'zionists'.

I'm suspecting you have a really low threshold for the term.

 

[Bob Macadoo]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

Seriously? What do you classify as 'hate-filled'? Because I've never met anyone I would regard as 'hate filled' and though I don't go near the alt-right web sites the only language I've heard online which could possibly fall into that category is some of the only slightly camouflaged references to Jews and 'zionists'.

I'm suspecting you have a really low threshold for the term.

 

Well the other morning I had a group of gentlemen referring to that "rag on that woman's head" and "we're probably feeding her children".  Like minded gather. That's limbo-ing under the bar though right?

[kimmy]

19 hours ago, Argus said:

the only language I've heard online which could possibly fall into that category is some of the only slightly camouflaged references to Jews and 'zionists'.

I doubt you've visited the comments sections on very many news websites. 

There used to be a game, when Fox News would have David Silverman from American Atheists on as a guest, somebody from Fox would be deleting death threats from the Facebook page as fast as possible, while others tried to screen-capture the death threats before they got deleted, and usually the guy deleting the death threats just couldn't keep up.

19 hours ago, Argus said:

I'm suspecting you have a really low threshold for the term.

The kind of overt bigotry towards foreigners that Bob mentions is pretty typical. "The chinks are taking over, white kids can't even get into college anymore." "They're buying everything, Vancouver is going to be all Chinese soon."

A lot of old-people also seem to think that gay people should be jailed, exiled, or worse.  "They ought to round those people up and shoot 'em in the head." You might be willing to write something like that off as just joking, or lovable old curmudgeons being all lovable and curmudgeonly, but I certainly don't see it that way.  It certainly sounds hate-filled to me, even if he didn't literally want people to get shot.  It's hard to keep your cool when you hear something like that, and it made me mad for the rest of the day, and that's why I avoid places where old-people congregate now. If you  think I'm too sensitive, just remember that you're probably "those people" to somebody, too.

 -k

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, kimmy said:

I doubt you've visited the comments sections on very many news websites. 

There used to be a game, when Fox News would have David Silverman from American Atheists on as a guest, somebody from Fox would be deleting death threats from the Facebook page as fast as possible, while others tried to screen-capture the death threats before they got deleted, and usually the guy deleting the death threats just couldn't keep up.

The kind of overt bigotry towards foreigners that Bob mentions is pretty typical. "The chinks are taking over, white kids can't even get into college anymore." "They're buying everything, Vancouver is going to be all Chinese soon."

A lot of old-people also seem to think that gay people should be jailed, exiled, or worse.  "They ought to round those people up and shoot 'em in the head." You might be willing to write something like that off as just joking, or lovable old curmudgeons being all lovable and curmudgeonly, but I certainly don't see it that way.  It certainly sounds hate-filled to me, even if he didn't literally want people to get shot.  It's hard to keep your cool when you hear something like that, and it made me mad for the rest of the day, and that's why I avoid places where old-people congregate now. If you  think I'm too sensitive, just remember that you're probably "those people" to somebody, too.

 -k

I'm with Argus on this.  I've actually never heard an old person say "They ought to round those people up and shoot 'em in the head." about gay people.

But if you did, you avoid all of them, whenever you can.  By all means.

Let's face it, if one member of an identifiable group does something wrong, that's a good reason to blame them all.  We know that!

[Wilber]

It's novel watching you display the same kind of prejudices toward old people as a group, as you accuse them of displaying toward others. Whatever are you going to do when you become one because you don't come across as being suicidal to me

[kimmy]

2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

It's novel watching you display the same kind of prejudices toward old people as a group, as you accuse them of displaying toward others. Whatever are you going to do when you become one because you don't come across as being suicidal to me

The #1 thing I plan to do when I am old is to not be a complete asshole, like many of the seniors I encounter seem to be.

I know there are nice seniors around...  but they're not the ones sitting around complaining about foreigners and gay people while they guzzle free coffee at IHOP.

 -k

[Wilber]

All old people planned on becoming assholes, it's a well known fact to young people.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Wilber said:

All old people planned on becoming assholes, it's a well known fact to young people.

I do, but that's my choice.  It shouldn't mean that all old people are tarred with the same brush.

[Wilber]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do, but that's my choice.  It shouldn't mean that all old people are tarred with the same brush.

So you don't think you are there yet?

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Bob Macadoo said:

Well the other morning I had a group of gentlemen referring to that "rag on that woman's head" and "we're probably feeding her children".  Like minded gather. That's limbo-ing under the bar though right?

And here I was thinking it would have to correspond, at least roughly, to hate speech laws. Silly me. So simply expressing contempt for a religious outfit - unless it's Christian, of course - constitutes hateful? As for we're probably feeding her children, we probably are, statistically speaking. Immigrants from the middle east area have the lowest economic success rate of all geographical areas.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Wilber said:

So you don't think you are there yet?

It's something I'm planning on for my retirement.  I understand one needs a hobby to keep busy. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by bcsapper

[bush_cheney2004]

Old people don't abort millions of children each year...younger people do. 

[kimmy]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

And here I was thinking it would have to correspond, at least roughly, to hate speech laws. Silly me. So simply expressing contempt for a religious outfit - unless it's Christian, of course - constitutes hateful?

Yes, I think the sense of contempt for others expressed illustrates what I meant by "hate-filled", whether it meets the legal standard of hate-speech or not.

 -k

[Argus]

1 hour ago, kimmy said:

I doubt you've visited the comments sections on very many news websites. 

There used to be a game, when Fox News would have David Silverman from American Atheists on as a guest, somebody from Fox would be deleting death threats from the Facebook page as fast as possible, while others tried to screen-capture the death threats before they got deleted, and usually the guy deleting the death threats just couldn't keep up.

The Americans have a lot of people who don't like atheists, it's true. There is too much Jesus stuff down there.

1 hour ago, kimmy said:

The kind of overt bigotry towards foreigners that Bob mentions is pretty typical. "The chinks are taking over, white kids can't even get into college anymore." "They're buying everything, Vancouver is going to be all Chinese soon."

I have mentioned a few times of late that I've been watching discussions and speeches by several people including Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, who are both atheists, btw. Both denounce Islam as an oppressive system dangerous to secularism and open, democratic values. Another like minded guy is Douglas Murray, a British man who is gay. He, in particular, makes the point, along with Jonathan Haidt, that it's patently unreasonably to feel that people who see their society drastically changing around them should have no right to feel upset by that. When you grow up somewhere and spend sixty year of your life there, and now it's something you can barely recognize, full of foreigners who have entirely different ways and often don't even speak your language, it can be damned distressing. Where is home? What happened to my home? Where can I feel at home now? Nowhere?

You don't have a clue because, of course, you're too young for your world to have changed dramatically around you. Plus younger people tend to embrace change and novelty more than older people who have seen it all before and now just want security and familiarity.

1 hour ago, kimmy said:

A lot of old-people also seem to think that gay people should be jailed, exiled, or worse.

You're talking about people who were raised their whole lives in a moral atmosphere governed by Judeo Christian rulings on sexuality. You don't change your moral code very quickly or easily, and especially when it's backed up by religion. I've been saying this for some time about many of our newcomers, but nobody seems to much care about what they say, perhaps because it's largely said in foreign languages.

Here's a thought. Maybe that delightfully multicultural group at the table next to you talking about something in their foreign language is saying something along the lines of "Dirty fags. They should all be in prison or killed." but you just don't know it. 

So are you going to avoid foreigners from now on? I doubt it. Because then you'd be like the old geezers.

 

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Yes, I think the sense of contempt for others expressed illustrates what I meant by "hate-filled", whether it meets the legal standard of hate-speech or not.

 -k

So you feel we should respect a woman's decision to hide her hair, perhaps her body at all times in all places, regardless of the temperature all her life long, so that she doesn't arouse men is something we ought to be respecting?

You do realize that the Muslim woman who is reverent and observant enough to wear a hijab almost certainly has much more hostile views of gays than your average old Canadian geezer, don't you?

Edited April 9, 2017 by Argus

[kimmy]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

The Americans have a lot of people who don't like atheists, it's true. There is too much Jesus stuff down there.

You said you'd never seen anything online that you'd classify as "hate-filled"... now you have.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I have mentioned a few times of late that I've been watching discussions and speeches by several people including Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, who are both atheists, btw. Both denounce Islam as an oppressive system dangerous to secularism and open, democratic values. Another like minded guy is Douglas Murray, a British man who is gay. He, in particular, makes the point, along with Jonathan Haidt, that it's patently unreasonably to feel that people who see their society drastically changing around them should have no right to feel upset by that. When you grow up somewhere and spend sixty year of your life there, and now it's something you can barely recognize, full of foreigners who have entirely different ways and often don't even speak your language, it can be damned distressing. Where is home? What happened to my home? Where can I feel at home now? Nowhere?

You don't have a clue because, of course, you're too young for your world to have changed dramatically around you. Plus younger people tend to embrace change and novelty more than older people who have seen it all before and now just want security and familiarity.

You're talking about people who were raised their whole lives in a moral atmosphere governed by Judeo Christian rulings on sexuality. You don't change your moral code very quickly or easily, and especially when it's backed up by religion.

I understand why old-people are entrenched in their views. But so what?  Understanding why they feel that way doesn't make me feel inclined to agree with them or forget that they're opposed to me. If somebody wants to declare that he's my enemy, I'm inclined to take his word for it.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I've been saying this for some time about many of our newcomers, but nobody seems to much care about what they say, perhaps because it's largely said in foreign languages.

Here's a thought. Maybe that delightfully multicultural group at the table next to you talking about something in their foreign language is saying something along the lines of "Dirty fags. They should all be in prison or killed." but you just don't know it. 

So are you going to avoid foreigners from now on? I doubt it. Because then you'd be like the old geezers.

What are you getting at here?  That I should embrace homophobic old-people because they hate homophobic Muslims?

I understand how Islam views gay people and I don't view the increasing number of Muslims in Canada as a good thing, for just that reason.

You live in a city full of newly arrived immigrants, but I live in a town full of elderly conservative rednecks. So you can understand which is a bigger annoyance to me on a regular basis.

1 hour ago, Argus said:

So you feel we should respect a woman's decision to hide her hair, perhaps her body at all times in all places, regardless of the temperature all her life long, so that she doesn't arouse men is something we ought to be respecting?

You do realize that the Muslim woman who is reverent and observant enough to wear a hijab almost certainly has much more hostile views of gays than your average old Canadian geezer, don't you?

I don't agree with Muslim dress codes, but if some woman feels she should dress that way, that's her choice. I would feel the same if someone to wear a chicken-suit or a dog-collar and leash around town. I think it's laughable that people are trying to spin it as "empowerment", but at the end of the day it's her choice, and if she wants to wear a dog-collar or a chicken suit or a bag over her head, it's up to her. I wouldn't applaud her choice, but it's hers to make.

Old-people have the right to hate gay people if they wish. Muslims have the right to hate gay people if they wish. Muslims have the right to believe women should walk around wearing tents.    But I don't feel the need to pretend that any of these people are my friends, or to pretend to respect their opinions, or to make any effort to accommodate their views.

 -k

[Argus]

2 hours ago, kimmy said:

You said you'd never seen anything online that you'd classify as "hate-filled"... now you have.

Technically all I saw was your statement about how you'd seen death threats towards an atheist. Anyway, I don't deny it exists. I just don't think it's as common - unless you seek it out - as some people seem to believe.

Quote

I understand why old-people are entrenched in their views. But so what?  Understanding why they feel that way doesn't make me feel inclined to agree with them or forget that they're opposed to me. If somebody wants to declare that he's my enemy, I'm inclined to take his word for it.

But they're not your enemies. Even if you were gay (and you've spoken of boyfriends) they wouldn't really qualify as 'enemies', as such.

Suppose you put together a list of all the things you believe in, and then someone else, maybe even someone old, puts together a list of all the things they believe in, and it turns out of 100 items on your lists, you basically agree on 95 of them. Are you going to declare them enemies because you differ on the other 5? I mean, these old people might growl with disapproval about moral failings (real or imagined) but it's not like they're going to do anything about it. And to reiterate what I've said previously, the nastiest things I've ever heard anyone say about gays have come from young women (20something, not old men. And the ones I'm thinking of are very nice, caring people, even if they turn up their noses at homosexuality. Actually, now that I think of it, one now has a gay friend, though she still sneers at lesbians.

Quote

What are you getting at here?  That I should embrace homophobic old-people because they hate homophobic Muslims?

Nope. But I don't think you can write off everyone who's a senior because some say politically correct things about gays or Muslims. Let me put it this way, if the statistics state unequivocally (which they do) that young men commit far more violence than anyone else, are you going to avoid young men wherever you go and stay away from restaurants and bars which have young men?

Quote

I don't agree with Muslim dress codes, but if some woman feels she should dress that way, that's her choice. I would feel the same if someone to wear a chicken-suit or a dog-collar and leash around town.

And if someone looked at a guy wearing a dog collar or a chicken suit and made a contemptuous comment would you hate them not respecting the guy wearing the chicken suit or the girl in the dog collar? Might you even make such a comment yourself, depending on your mood?

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Argus

[kimmy]

16 hours ago, Argus said:

Technically all I saw was your statement about how you'd seen death threats towards an atheist. Anyway, I don't deny it exists. I just don't think it's as common - unless you seek it out - as some people seem to believe.

I did provide a link to a screen-shot of the hate-filled posts before they were removed. You can see it or not see it as you wish.  There is plenty of hate out there, whether you seek it out or not.

16 hours ago, Argus said:

But they're not your enemies. Even if you were gay (and you've spoken of boyfriends) they wouldn't really qualify as 'enemies', as such.

Suppose you put together a list of all the things you believe in, and then someone else, maybe even someone old, puts together a list of all the things they believe in, and it turns out of 100 items on your lists, you basically agree on 95 of them. Are you going to declare them enemies because you differ on the other 5? I mean, these old people might growl with disapproval about moral failings (real or imagined) but it's not like they're going to do anything about it.

I am guessing that if there was a guy who you agreed with 95 out of 100 things, but one of the things you disagreed with was that he thinks there should be a new worldwide Caliphate, that would be a deal-breaker no matter how many things you agreed about (and would for me as well, btw). For me, the idea that people should be persecuted, prosecuted, or "shot in the head" because they've violated someone's puritan sexual mores is likewise a deal-breaker.

As for the degree that they're willing to "do anything about it"... I'm sure that he doesn't actually mean he wants people shot in the head. It's hyperbole.   On the other hand, I suspect a lot of these people probably circulate hateful material around on Facebook and email. Probably would use their votes to support a politician who'd cater to them, perhaps donate money to organizations that agitate against gay people, and so on.

16 hours ago, Argus said:

Nope. But I don't think you can write off everyone who's a senior because some say politically correct things about gays or Muslims. Let me put it this way, if the statistics state unequivocally (which they do) that young men commit far more violence than anyone else, are you going to avoid young men wherever you go and stay away from restaurants and bars which have young men?

I'm sure you don't write off all Muslims either, but I bet you don't hang out in places where Muslims congregate. I am perfectly able to deal with seniors on a one-on-one basis.  Some of them are certainly decent people. I just try to avoid patronizing establishments that cater to seniors (and parents with rambunctious toddlers.)

16 hours ago, Argus said:

And if someone looked at a guy wearing a dog collar or a chicken suit and made a contemptuous comment would you hate them not respecting the guy wearing the chicken suit or the girl in the dog collar? Might you even make such a comment yourself, depending on your mood?

A dog-collar or chicken-suit, for sure. But those are bad fashion choices. There's a fine line between hating peoples' customs and hating people themselves. I try to keep that in mind.

 -k

[Argus]

1 hour ago, kimmy said:

I did provide a link to a screen-shot of the hate-filled posts before they were removed. You can see it or not see it as you wish.  There is plenty of hate out there, whether you seek it out or not.

Okay, I looked. Pretty sad, even if it's internet bravado. I'm reminded of something I read in a Leon Uris book about the troubles in Ireland, related to when a bunch of protestant militants waited in hiding with clubs and bricks and iron pipes to ambush a Catholic civil rights march. It said both sides claimed to be followers of Jesus. And if Jesus was there that day would he be marching with the peaceful civil rights protesters, or under the bridge clutching a pipe, waiting to attack people? He'd be marching peacefully, of course.

1 hour ago, kimmy said:

I am guessing that if there was a guy who you agreed with 95 out of 100 things, but one of the things you disagreed with was that he thinks there should be a new worldwide Caliphate, that would be a deal-breaker no matter how many things you agreed about (and would for me as well, btw). For me, the idea that people should be persecuted, prosecuted, or "shot in the head" because they've violated someone's puritan sexual mores is likewise a deal-breaker.

You have a point. But I wasn't suggesting approval of an idiot who wants to shoot gays. Nor, in fact, would I think much of the intelligence of anyone who wanted to imprison or punish them. Hell, I've spoken in defense of pedophiles* on this site, so I'm not exactly a puritan, and I don't get along with puritans. I'm just not ready to rope all seniors into that category and avoid them like they were plague carriers. 

* provided they don't ever touch children

Quote

A dog-collar or chicken-suit, for sure. But those are bad fashion choices. There's a fine line between hating peoples' customs and hating people themselves. I try to keep that in mind.

For me, and probably for most of the people I know who I talk with, disapproval of seeing a woman in her 'outfit' be it hijab, chador, burqua or whatever, is based on the assumption that anyone wearing such an outfit is expressing their devotion to a set of religious based values which include a whole array of ridiculous, misogynistic, homophobic, and bigoted garbage which is often to be enforced by violence. If I sneer disapprovingly (out of their hearing, for to do otherwise would be rude) it is because she has self-identified as a devotee of Sharia and that whole school of culture which I disdain. It would be like disliking someone wearing Hells Angels colors for what that represents - not because I think the crest looks goofy.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Argus

[Bob Macadoo]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

. I 'm just not ready to rope all seniors into that category and avoid them like they were plague carriers. 

I never said all seniors....you just said hate speaking old curmudgeons aren't prevalent and then went on to say it's not their fault its their generation.  The best old geezers, like internet heroes, who are pleasant and grandfatherly to their face and then spout their "browns are taking over this country" rhetoric as soon as they turn their backs.

[Ash74]

I deal with the public everyday and the biggest hassle is the lil old ladies. Middle Eastern people are the most polite usually but if I had to pick a race who hands down is the biggest hassle it would be the lil old ladies. Men can be loud but usually can be reasoned with. Never have a problem with the people from the middle east. Now lil old ladies will interrupt and demand attention right away. Kids are kids. Once you have your own the screaming just blends in. As parents we have all been there.