Sir Bandelot Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I think they (American govt) will sort this out before its too late but for now we are seeing political posturing, with the GOP doing whatever it can to not help Obama. With the election coming up the GOP wants recognition for any possible solution, and is willing to put some strain on the system, in a way to make Obama look ineffective. The question I have is, can they come up with something that will give them a long-term solution that eventually takes them out of this problem, or are they putting in stop-gap measures for now, hoping that things might change over time. Either better economic situation for the US, or worse for the rest of the word which puts them on a level playing field. The immediate question I have is, who is going to pay for this. The typical answer in the past has been, Joe average plumber who had little to do with bad policy decisions, will have to take the cuts, either by loss of income, loss of services for their tax dollar while the top dogs see no losses. I hope that will not be the case. Meanwhile, expensive and pointless wars that do very little to benefit the US public grind on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Do you expect lower income Americans and government workers missing paychecks to sit back and let the government get away with it? The unemployed, the low income and government workers in Greece went out and protested and it wasn't pretty. I would expect that Americans will do the same kinds of things...unless of course you are suggesting that Americans are pussies and will take it laying down? Perhaps he's hoping they'll take it with a tear in their eye, one hand on their hearts, a bible in the other and a flag waving gently in the background. A proud moment I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Well said. In my opinion it is much like Britain. It remains to be seen whether this is just a cyclical event or a more long term case of decline. It seems more like a case of déjà vu, like the old USSR after it went into Afghanistan. Anyone else recall the told-you-so's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) I specifically said "or any point thereafter." I live in America - my views are based on my reality. Not "myths." I will say this. I'm glad I never had the ugly attitude towards Canada that too many have towards the United States. And for the record, I include Canada in the "economic ups and downs." I give Canada the credit that it deserves and never thought it was dysfunctional or had a system that doesn't work. Perhaps that's because I don't have an inferiority complex or a need to criticize. But right now, if you want the same type of analysis directed at Canada, I'd say Canada is where it is debt-wise because the government haven't been giving what it should to the health care program. I would say your health care is in crisis. More than one situation has had a happy ending only because of the medical care provided to Canadians by the United States. By the same token, I'd say you're in a military crisis should you ever have to defend yourself. And in light of these possibilities, what do you have to be optimistic about? You raise a valid point. However, this depression is not like the other depression era. The difference: The world was at war and the US became the manufacturing machine for world arms. They supplied the allies and when they finally got involved on the Pacific front, not only did they have manufacturing industry as a hedge against mass unemployment and starvation but the Army became the family's best income. Of course today the US doesn't have the manufacturers to fall back on. Nor do you have any substantial war machine that you can supply arms to. You are stuck with service level jobs and when the layoffs begin and mass unemployment gets worse than it already is, what do you think the masses will do? Just take another look at Greece. They may be smaller but you are pretty much in the same boat. But not only that, China surpasses US manufacturing and holds billions in US currency. If they flood the market and further devalue the US dollar, you can bet that you will be in a depression - one the world has never seen the likes of. And no doubt you will take us with you, but we have some things you don't have that the world still wants: resources and a friendly relationship with China. You are right. We are in a medicare crisis. We are also in an education crisis, a justice crisis and a native poverty crisis. We acknowledge these things and are doing something about it. The US on the other hand (at least if you and BC are typical Americans) is still in denial. You believe you are coated in Teflon. Fannie Mae and Freddy Mack should be reminders you are not immune from the failings of the stock market nor the world economy. And if a simple thing like mortgages and ponzi schemes can put you where you are today, you should be afraid. Be very very afraid. Edited July 16, 2011 by charter.rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I think they (American govt) will sort this out before its too late but for now we are seeing political posturing, with the GOP doing whatever it can to not help Obama. With the election coming up the GOP wants recognition for any possible solution, and is willing to put some strain on the system, in a way to make Obama look ineffective. The GOP had little influence until the 2010 mid-terms and Americans, not of your viewpoint, understood that the largest factor in making Obama look ineffective was Obama himself. The GOP is doing whatever it can to not help Obama???? My biggest concern is that they will be able to correct things, get America employed again and Obama comes out of it smelling like a rose and gets re-elected. Obama is a maroon who thinks everyone else is a maroon. He is the great savior and do-gooder, afraid to hurt anyone, and in the end winds up hurting everyone. When I see a man like this who views most of the people in society as poor, ignorant outright stupid and incapable and is going to be their protector and savior because he is intelligent, compassionate, fair and just, I know he will represent the father of all those in need, the father he never had, protect them from all the evil in the world and provide for and comfort them. He views the American citizens as helpless children. he only needs money from the rich to fulfill his dreams, the dreams of having a father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 My concern is not so much whether they can but whether they will. When you hear high level Republicans saying their #1 priority is making sure Obama is a one term president and not the nation's economy and debt, you really have to wonder. Maybe we are getting the wrong slant on things up here but I get a real impression that partisanship trumps everything else for too many in Washington. When we were in this position 20 years ago, our system allowed a majority government to do what was needed to get it under control. I'm hoping the US system of checks and balances doesn't turn out to be its greatest weakness in this crisis by making such actions impossible. One thing about debt though, if you can't sort it out yourself, eventually your creditors do it for you. You stop getting a say in the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 ....The US on the other hand (at least if you and BC are typical Americans) is still in denial. You believe you are coated in Teflon. Fannie Mae and Freddy Mack should be reminders you are not immune from the failings of the stock market nor the world economy. And if a simple thing like mortgages and ponzi schemes can put you where you are today, you should be afraid. Be very very afraid. No...we will not be afraid...unlike petrified Canadians who look to government to solve all things, Americans have faced far worse and emerged far better on the other side. We don't look to other nations to be the leader in determining our own future. When Canada was on the fiscal ropes in the 1990's, were you "doomed"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 My concern is not so much whether they can but whether they will. When you hear high level Republicans saying their #1 priority is making sure Obama is a one term president and not the nation's economy and debt, you really have to wonder. Have to wonder why politicians are acting like there will be an election in 2012? Oh my! Maybe we are getting the wrong slant on things up here but I get a real impression that partisanship trumps everything else for too many in Washington. When we were in this position 20 years ago, our system allowed a majority government to do what was needed to get it under control. Americans don't currently have a "majority government", and even if it did, it is easy to argue that circumstance as being the root cause of the fiscal problem going back to FDR's New Deal. I'm hoping the US system of checks and balances doesn't turn out to be its greatest weakness in this crisis by making such actions impossible. We wouldn't have it any other way. One thing about debt though, if you can't sort it out yourself, eventually your creditors do it for you. You stop getting a say in the matter. Yep....the US is the largest contributor to the IMF....that money could be used to help pay the debt instead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 No...we will not be afraid...unlike petrified Canadians who look to government to solve all things, Americans have faced far worse and emerged far better on the other side. We don't look to other nations to be the leader in determining our own future. When Canada was on the fiscal ropes in the 1990's, were you "doomed"? This is one thing only your government can solve. We weren't doomed because the government of the day could not be paralyzed by partisanship. I really hope you are right BC but I'm not so sure about yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 No...we will not be afraid...unlike petrified Canadians who look to government to solve all things, Americans have faced far worse and emerged far better on the other side. We don't look to other nations to be the leader in determining our own future. When Canada was on the fiscal ropes in the 1990's, were you "doomed"? You are obviously an adult who doesn't need looking after some democrats down there need to grow up though or America will wind up like France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 This is one thing only your government can solve. We weren't doomed because the government of the day could not be paralyzed by partisanship. I really hope you are right BC but I'm not so sure about yours. No, the issues could easily be solved by a change in expectations for entitlements, which is the structural cause of the fiscal problem...far more than wars or tax cuts. This circumstance has happened before, and we know exactly how it ended each time. Old people know better than to believe the hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 No, the issues could easily be solved by a change in expectations for entitlements, which is the structural cause of the fiscal problem...far more than wars or tax cuts. This circumstance has happened before, and we know exactly how it ended each time. Old people know better than to believe the hype. Attitude adjustment. Or as BC put it "change in expectations for entitlements". Remember - that governments are institutions - those running them for the most part are institutionalized. One something is or thought is insituted - development and progress come to a stand still - What these people learned in their insitutional learning facilities might pertain in time to that past time - but it does not fit the present or the future - In other words the men and woman making the decision are dated - and can not help it - It is time for a few of their visionary types to speak on this - and not the ones who are telepromter dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 It seems more like a case of déjà vu, like the old USSR after it went into Afghanistan. Anyone else recall the told-you-so's? Could be. They are still mired down there and even with all that military might haven't even come close to "mission accomplished"..Dubya's famous phrase from Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Attitude adjustment...It is pretty difficult to unform a fully formed character of a 73 year old millionare..for the most part that is who sits in congress - try to take ANY money form their cold stiff hands...it's near impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 As far as the OP is concerned, this person believes in a super-intelligent agency, directing the affairs of the world - and securing their position of wealth, importance and telling other people how they have to live their petty little lives. Economics is important and all the political bickering is based upon that simple fact. It is only our lack of education in the field of economics that allows us to be duped into the political expedience of the day with endless left/right back and forth political rhetoric to continue. It doesn't take any extensive economic training to understand that money and wealth are generated by the economy and government in order to give anything to society must first take it out of soicety. Thinking the government is solely responsible for creating jobs is idiotic. Yet here they are trying to boost employment and create jobs. The only thing they can do is allow the economy to work by providing a secure environment for it to work. By threatening taxation and promising entitlements that must be paid for out of that taxation (I'm thinking specifically of Obamacare here among other Obama promises)one doesn't create a secure environment for an economy to work. Chavez has recently decided that prices need to be controlled in Venezuela. I guess that specifically means they will be held down so the peasants can afford to buy things. What a great way to have no one produce anything - simply make it illegal to make the effort worthwhile. We, the masses, are taught math in our public education but are somehow excluded from gaining an education in banking, economic theory, finance and how it all works. Those that pursue a career in Economics these days get an education in "econometrics" - the "science" of economics, how the numbers are all supposed to add up and balance and the formulae necessary to achieve that balance. There is not a wit of understanding beyond that or you would discover the great ruse that has been adopted as a supposed gift to society where the "intelligent", intelligence being determined by blood relations, privilege or a long process of proper education, are given license to run other people's lives and not upset the apple cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 As far as the OP is concerned, this person believes in a super-intelligent agency, directing the affairs of the world - and securing their position of wealth, importance and telling other people how they have to live their petty little lives. Economics is important and all the political bickering is based upon that simple fact. It is only our lack of education in the field of economics that allows us to be duped into the political expedience of the day with endless left/right back and forth political rhetoric to continue. It doesn't take any extensive economic training to understand that money and wealth are generated by the economy and government in order to give anything to society must first take it out of soicety. Thinking the government is solely responsible for creating jobs is idiotic. Yet here they are trying to boost employment and create jobs. The only thing they can do is allow the economy to work by providing a secure environment for it to work. By threatening taxation and promising entitlements that must be paid for out of that taxation (I'm thinking specifically of Obamacare here among other Obama promises)one doesn't create a secure environment for an economy to work. Chavez has recently decided that prices need to be controlled in Venezuela. I guess that specifically means they will be held down so the peasants can afford to buy things. What a great way to have no one produce anything - simply make it illegal to make the effort worthwhile. We, the masses, are taught math in our public education but are somehow excluded from gaining an education in banking, economic theory, finance and how it all works. Those that pursue a career in Economics these days get an education in "econometrics" - the "science" of economics, how the numbers are all supposed to add up and balance and the formulae necessary to achieve that balance. There is not a wit of understanding beyond that or you would discover the great ruse that has been adopted as a supposed gift to society where the "intelligent", intelligence being determined by blood relations, privilege or a long process of proper education, are given license to run other people's lives and not upset the apple cart. Are we the masses taught about tax havens both on and offshore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 No...we will not be afraid...unlike petrified Canadians who look to government to solve all things, Americans have faced far worse and emerged far better on the other side. We don't look to other nations to be the leader in determining our own future. When Canada was on the fiscal ropes in the 1990's, were you "doomed"? Not without your allies help. The 1990's was a housing bubble and the entire economy did not depend on mortgages. While it did slow things down in the construction marker, it was nothing more than a seasonal correction of the markets. We had our resources then and we still have them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Are we the masses taught about tax havens both on and offshore? I really like french onion soup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I really like french onion soup. Are we the masses taught about corporate tax cheats and the accomodation between state and corporation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 No, the issues could easily be solved by a change in expectations for entitlements, which is the structural cause of the fiscal problem...far more than wars or tax cuts. This circumstance has happened before, and we know exactly how it ended each time. Old people know better than to believe the hype. The changes that are needed will not be easy. That will take leadership which is the responsibility of government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) Not without your allies help. The 1990's was a housing bubble and the entire economy did not depend on mortgages. While it did slow things down in the construction marker, it was nothing more than a seasonal correction of the markets. We had our resources then and we still have them now. Our allies help? Do you mean being the safest investment haven for foreign capital, or being the world's reserve currency, or being the largest consumer marketplace for exported goods? That kind of help? Or maybe you meant the kind of help where American capital and technology helped Canada develop and distribute your "resources", and continues to do so. Edited July 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Are we the masses taught about corporate tax cheats and the accomodation between state and corporation? I like french onion soup too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusThermopyle Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 I like french onion soup too... What about Lobster Chowder? Do you like that? I do, a whole bunch! Especially from Mama Camilles in Halifax, best walk in seafood restaurant that ever existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Campbells? Yuch! Back in the 60's I had a dog that refused to eat cheap-ass-10-cents-a-can dog food. He would rather lose weight or raid garbage cans than sink to that level. Soup lines are for the dogs without any pride! There are a couple of missions (soup kitchens) near my place - from what I understand the food is pretty good - all the crack heads go there so they don't waste their money on food...and have more of the governmental cheaque for dope...I would rather poke out an eye...or chop of my left index finger than enter one of those places - I could be starving and I will make due boiling a shoe if neccesary - NO way in hell will I join that class of rotted humanity...I might be a dog to some - but this dog holds his head high and the tail is never between my legs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 I like french onion soup too... Once the seagulls have stopped feeding in the parking lot...the baker tosses his stale goods out there - you might be able to find a few of those cubes of toasted bread that you can float on that onion soup...Only fools starve. My mother would crawl through a bombed out train over top of dead bodies to get a few can goods - while dad waited in a cheap hotel for his lunch to arrive. No treason or supposed bankruptcy of the USA will have the same effect as a thousand planes dropping bombs on a city...My parents hid in the eye of the storm during the bombing of Berlin - Dad said the sky looked as if a swarm of bugs had taken over...the whole city swayed and moaned. THAT described scenario is desperation - The finacial state of the union is all about numbers...consider ourselves fortunate no matter what takes place in the USA..we will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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