bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 Hope so but doesn't your Treasury answer to Congress? No, Treasury is part of the Executive Branch. Obama has already told Geithner to have a contingency plan that probably protects social security but still pays the debt. This is Treasury's constitutional responsibility. Possibly but how long could you carry on with Americans as your only new creditors? Depends on the interest rate....I would jump on T-bills if they sweeten the pot, which will happen in a self correcting result of downgrades or the perception of default. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 When the President of the US warns that they may not be able to pay government employees or soldiers in the Army, I would say that you are in a crisis. But what the President said was a complete and utter lie. Quote
Wilber Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 But what the President said was a complete and utter lie. Where does the money come from then? If as BC says, the debt will be the first priority, then what? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) Where does the money come from then? If as BC says, the debt will be the first priority, then what? Then what is best explained here: The BPC study found that the United States is likely to hit the debt limit sometime between August 2 and August 9. “It’s a 44 percent overnight cut in federal spending” if Congress hits the debt limit, Powell said. The BPC study projects there will be $172 billion in federal revenues in August and $307 billion in authorized expenditures. That means there's enough money to pay for, say, interest on the debt ($29 billion), Social Security ($49.2 billion), Medicare and Medicaid ($50 billion), active duty troop pay ($2.9 billion), veterans affairs programs ($2.9 billion). That leaves you with about $39 billion to fund (or not fund) the following: Defense vendors ($31.7 billion) IRS refunds ($3.9 billion) Food stamps and welfare ($9.3 billion) Unemployment insurance benefits ($12.8 billion) Department of Education ($20.2 billion) Housing and Urban Development ($6.7 billion) Other spending, such as Departmens of Justice, Labor, Commerce, EPA, HHS ($73.6 billion) http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/bipartisan-policy-center-us-wont-default-debt-if-congress-fails-raise-debt-ceiling_576408.html Edited July 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 Then what is best explained here: The BPC study found that the United States is likely to hit the debt limit sometime between August 2 and August 9. “It’s a 44 percent overnight cut in federal spending” if Congress hits the debt limit, Powell said. The BPC study projects there will be $172 billion in federal revenues in August and $307 billion in authorized expenditures. That means there's enough money to pay for, say, interest on the debt ($29 billion), Social Security ($49.2 billion), Medicare and Medicaid ($50 billion), active duty troop pay ($2.9 billion), veterans affairs programs ($2.9 billion). That leaves you with about $39 billion to fund (or not fund) the following: Defense vendors ($31.7 billion) IRS refunds ($3.9 billion) Food stamps and welfare ($9.3 billion) Unemployment insurance benefits ($12.8 billion) Department of Education ($20.2 billion) Housing and Urban Development ($6.7 billion) Other spending, such as Departmens of Justice, Labor, Commerce, EPA, HHS ($73.6 billion) http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/bipartisan-policy-center-us-wont-default-debt-if-congress-fails-raise-debt-ceiling_576408.html Yikes! Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
charter.rights Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 Yikes! It is just the kinds of thing that start wild protests in Greece. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 It is just the kinds of thing that start wild protests in Greece. No, Greece was forced by the EU and IMF to adopt "austerity" measures, while the Americans control their own fate. The debt ceiling will be raised after the political theatre and measure of blood are satisfied. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
charter.rights Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 No, Greece was forced by the EU and IMF to adopt "austerity" measures, while the Americans control their own fate. The debt ceiling will be raised after the political theatre and measure of blood are satisfied. The EU did that to protect their currency. Moodys and Fitch have warned that the USA credit rating may be lowered in the next 3 months if they fail to make a debt payment, or fail to come to agreement on a suitable debt reduction plan. That could easily sink the US if international investors start dumping US bonds out of fear the treasury can't meet its obligations. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 The EU did that to protect their currency. The EU wanted to protect....the EU. Moodys and Fitch have warned that the USA credit rating may be lowered in the next 3 months if they fail to make a debt payment, or fail to come to agreement on a suitable debt reduction plan. That could easily sink the US if international investors start dumping US bonds out of fear the treasury can't meet its obligations. The US will make their debt payments...it is easy to do compared to the other games going on in DC. Treasury has partially made payments since May by raiding federal pension plans. This is a game of "chicken". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
sharkman Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 The US has raised the "debt ceiling" about 100 times since 1917. If it hadn't, we might be speaking German...or Russian. What about the job rate? What about the mortgage crisis? What about the dollar dropping over 2 years? What about all the rest of my post? This is a perfect example of Americans ignoring their situation. Well the ones who are out of work and running out of employment insurance and losing their homes are probably concerned, but the rest just seem to ignore the problem. Obama wants to borrow more from his debtors to spend his way out of the crisis. Do you have any comment on that? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) What about the job rate? What about the mortgage crisis? What about the dollar dropping over 2 years? What about all the rest of my post? What about those things? Do you not think that a prime rate of 21% and the resulting mortgage rates in the 1970's was a "crisis"? Has unemployment ever been higher than 9%? (Yes) The US dollar is purposely devalued to monetize the debt away. This is a perfect example of Americans ignoring their situation. Well the ones who are out of work and running out of employment insurance and losing their homes are probably concerned, but the rest just seem to ignore the problem. Obama wants to borrow more from his debtors to spend his way out of the crisis. Do you have any comment on that? The US must raise the debt ceiling to get more breathing room...it's just a matter of what terms Congress will demand. Americans don't think like Canadians (who piss and moan about new fighter jets). Edited July 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 What about those things? Do you not think that a prime rate of 21% and the resulting mortgage rates in the 1970's was a "crisis"? Has unemployment ever been higher than 9%? (Yes) The US dollar is purposely devalued to monetize the debt away. The US must raise the debt ceiling to get more breathing room...it's just a matter of what terms Congress will demand. Americans don't think like Canadians (who piss and moan about new fighter jets). I PISS AND MOAN....how did you know? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 I PISS AND MOAN....how did you know? Good guess! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 Good guess! Trivial/. Can't talk right now - was out drinking with the kids....always good to hear from the voice of Yank...thanks my friend...Hope springs eternal. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 Trivial/. Can't talk right now - was out drinking with the kids....always good to hear from the voice of Yank...thanks my friend...Hope springs eternal. Charge it! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
charter.rights Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 The EU wanted to protect....the EU. BY protecting their currency. The US will make their debt payments...it is easy to do compared to the other games going on in DC. Treasury has partially made payments since May by raiding federal pension plans. This is a game of "chicken". Yes but at what expense. Do you expect lower income Americans and government workers missing paychecks to sit back and let the government get away with it? The unemployed, the low income and government workers in Greece went out and protested and it wasn't pretty. I would expect that Americans will do the same kinds of things...unless of course you are suggesting that Americans are pussies and will take it laying down? Your government doesn't have enough money. If they raise the debt ceiling, end up with a lower credit rating is may be the sign of doom. Debt payment interest will increase as a result of the poorer ratings and it doesn't mean that you will have any more money.....you will just have more debt. When you start to spend you capital reserves you are in trouble big time. You have no cash flow to work with and the interest income on your reserves gets less and less so that you have less cash flow etc. It is a downward spiral. Increasing debt isn't the answer. You have to either drastically cut your debt or you drastically raise taxes. Good luck with that. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
Guest American Woman Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 When the President of the US warns that they may not be able to pay government employees or soldiers in the Army, I would say that you are in a crisis. When and if there comes a time when we don't pay government employees or soldiers in the army, then perhaps your 'doom and gloom' outlook would apply. Even then one would have to look at the whole picture. In the meantime, I'm seeing a lot of "may be," "might," "could" et al. Why all the negativity? Why not any optimism based on past history/performance? As I've pointed out, most nations have a history of ebbs and tides economically, which our nations have always weathered. And as bush_cheney has pointed out, our debt ceiling has been raised more than once in the past. Why would that stay fixed as incomes and prices rise to reflect cost of living increases? It doesn't even make sense. Quote
pinko Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 When and if there comes a time when we don't pay government employees or soldiers in the army, then perhaps your 'doom and gloom' outlook would apply. Even then one would have to look at the whole picture. In the meantime, I'm seeing a lot of "may be," "might," "could" et al. Why all the negativity? Why not any optimism based on past history/performance? As I've pointed out, most nations have a history of ebbs and tides economically, which our nations have always weathered. And as bush_cheney has pointed out, our debt ceiling has been raised more than once in the past. Why would that stay fixed as incomes and prices rise to reflect cost of living increases? It doesn't even make sense. What is there to be optimistic about? Quote
charter.rights Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) When and if there comes a time when we don't pay government employees or soldiers in the army, then perhaps your 'doom and gloom' outlook would apply. Even then one would have to look at the whole picture. In the meantime, I'm seeing a lot of "may be," "might," "could" et al. Why all the negativity? Why not any optimism based on past history/performance? As I've pointed out, most nations have a history of ebbs and tides economically, which our nations have always weathered. And as bush_cheney has pointed out, our debt ceiling has been raised more than once in the past. Why would that stay fixed as incomes and prices rise to reflect cost of living increases? It doesn't even make sense. BC just demonstrated that is a real possibility since in order to meet your debt interest payment something will have to give. There is only $39 billion left to pay $85 billion in liabilities. It isn't MY doom and gloom scenario. It is your president's warning. Edited July 16, 2011 by charter.rights Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
Guest American Woman Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 BC just demonstrated that is a real possibility since in order to meet your debt interest payment something will have to give. There is only $39 billion left to pay $85 billion in liabilities. It isn't MY doom and gloom scenario. It is your president's warning. Again with the "real possibility." You think there haven't been "real possibilities" that we weathered in the past? So, yeah. It is your doom and gloom scenario. You are the one who made the post saying the U.S. is in a crisis. I was responding to what you (and others) in this thread have said - the ones posting on this board. In other words, I was responding to what YOU said, not to what Obama has said. And in case you're unaware of it, he has to paint a desperate picture to get what he wants. He'd be a moron to go to Congress attempting to raise the debt ceiling with an 'everything's coming up roses' presentation. So I'm talking about you, and others, looking at the whole picture. Unless you're unable to do that and come up with anything other than what the POTUS is saying at any given moment in time? Quote
Guest American Woman Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 What is there to be optimistic about? It's a damn good thing America didn't have that defeatist attitude during the depression. Or any point thereafter. Quote
pinko Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) It's a damn good thing America didn't have that defeatist attitude during the depression. Or any point thereafter. I think you conflate the conglomerate known as America and the myth it perpetrates with the actual circumstances of the last depression. It was the war and the New Deal that rectified the situation. Edited July 16, 2011 by pinko Quote
Guest American Woman Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 I think you conflate the conglomerate known as America and the myth it perpetrates with the actual circumstances of the last depression. It was the war and the New Deal that rectified the situation. I specifically said "or any point thereafter." I live in America - my views are based on my reality. Not "myths." I will say this. I'm glad I never had the ugly attitude towards Canada that too many have towards the United States. And for the record, I include Canada in the "economic ups and downs." I give Canada the credit that it deserves and never thought it was dysfunctional or had a system that doesn't work. Perhaps that's because I don't have an inferiority complex or a need to criticize. But right now, if you want the same type of analysis directed at Canada, I'd say Canada is where it is debt-wise because the government haven't been giving what it should to the health care program. I would say your health care is in crisis. More than one situation has had a happy ending only because of the medical care provided to Canadians by the United States. By the same token, I'd say you're in a military crisis should you ever have to defend yourself. And in light of these possibilities, what do you have to be optimistic about? Quote
sharkman Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) I think the thread title of this thread is over the top, the US is not going bankrupt. But to compare Canada to the US's present position is not realistic. We had 27000 jobs created last month vs 18000 for the American population of over 300 million. Our unemployment rate is 7.4. We do not have a mortgage default/financial bleeding situation. We do not have a dollar that's lost over 20% of it's value in the last few years. I could go on but I don't think I need to. I love Canada and I love the United States, I think it's the greatest country in the world. But it is hurting now in a way that positive thinking alone will not help. It is losing influence and power across the globe(due to its debt issues and such) and countries like China are gaining what it loses. I never thought I'd see the day when a president shutters NASA. Now the US must depend on Russia and others to see to its interests in space. Will the US be destroyed? No. Will it go bankrupt? No. But it appears its becoming a shadow of its former self, much like Great Britian did and empires before it. Perhaps it's just the way of things. Edited July 16, 2011 by sharkman Quote
pinko Posted July 16, 2011 Report Posted July 16, 2011 I think the thread title of this thread is over the top, the US is not going bankrupt. But to compare Canada to the US's present position is not realistic. We had 27000 jobs created last month vs 18000 for the American population of over 300 million. Our unemployment rate is 7.4. We do not have a mortgage default/financial bleeding situation. We do not have a dollar that's lost over 20% of it's value in the last few years. I could go on but I don't think I need to. I love Canada and I love the United States, I think it's the greatest country in the world. But it is hurting now in a way that positive thinking alone will not help. It is losing influence and power across the globe(due to its debt issues and such) and countries like China are gaining what it loses. I never thought I'd see the day when a president shutters NASA. Now the US must depend on Russia and others to see to its interests in space. Will the US be destroyed? No. Will it go bankrupt? No. But it appears its becoming a shadow of its former self, much like Great Britian did and empires before it. Perhaps it's just the way of things. Well said. In my opinion it is much like Britain. It remains to be seen whether this is just a cyclical event or a more long term case of decline. Quote
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