Do religious people have a right to push their faith at others?

[eyeball]

Harper does not have ìnternet activity. No one with any brains uses the net in a serous manner - only fools such as myself and you toy around on the net. Myself - I don`t give a damn if I am creating a compromising record of my ill thoughts.

No the chance of anyone in this joint ever successfully running for public orifice is slim to none. It was bad enough before the Internet but I can only imagine how utterly straight-laced politicians will have to be before even consider doing so in the future.

I suppose M Hardener might have a shot but someone like me, Dancer or you? Fuhgeddaboudit.

Edited June 30, 2011 by eyeball

[Saipan]

I believe everybody has a right to believe as they wish, but I think they should not push those beliefs on others. Worship as you wish, but stop bothering people about it!

Try to tell Darwinists

[Saipan]

Why microphones in people's homes, when we can just allow the government surveillance of our internet activity with no need for warrants like Harper is already planning to do?

Planning? Geeks do it all the time.

[WIP]

Try to tell Darwinists

Yeah, just like those people who are trying to force us to believe we live on a round earth! The flat earth theory should also be taught in schools.

[Oleg Bach]

No the chance of anyone in this joint ever successfully running for public orifice is slim to none. It was bad enough before the Internet but I can only imagine how utterly straight-laced politicians will have to be before even consider doing so in the future.

I suppose M Hardener might have a shot but someone like me, Dancer or you? Fuhgeddaboudit.

Just like Face Book. Young people do not realize that they are creating a record that can be accessed in the years to come. If you talk long enough most people will say anything and eventually everything. If you were running for public office or achieved public office - a person could pull one of your quotes and use it to discredit you. Even though people develope and change - their views and opinions over time - The digital information pool stays the same - People or the authorities can cherry pick and have their way with you....myself - they can kiss my ass - I will continue to rant and say what ever comes to mind - because this is the virtual world and not the real world here. If people can not figure that out then they are of little consequence in the long run.

[betsy]

Yeah, just like those people who are trying to force us to believe we live on a round earth! The flat earth theory should also be taught in schools.

Eh? You still believe in a flat earth? Didn't you read the Bible?

Didn't you see the round blue earth's photo from outer space?

Are you one of those who still believe the landing on the moon was fake?

Just because you don't acknowledge the obvious CLEAR, UNDISPUTED and IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE....etc.,

Edited July 3, 2011 by betsy

[Oleg Bach]

Eh? You still believe in a flat earth? Didn't you read the Bible?

Didn't you see the round blue earth's photo from outer space?

Are you one of those who still believe the landing on the moon was fake?

Just because you don't acknowledge the obvious CLEAR, UNDISPUTED and IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE....etc.,

The discription of creation in the bible clearly suggested a round earth. Most people could not translate properly.. God creates a firmament - a dome or an atmosphere. If the writers believed that the earth was flat they would never have describe the atmostphere as a dome - or a semi-sphere. If there is a dome on top then certainly there would be one underneath...hence a sphere.

[WIP]

The discription of creation in the bible clearly suggested a round earth. Most people could not translate properly.. God creates a firmament - a dome or an atmosphere. If the writers believed that the earth was flat they would never have describe the atmostphere as a dome - or a semi-sphere. If there is a dome on top then certainly there would be one underneath...hence a sphere.

No, the ancient Hebrew conception of the Cosmos, which was consistent all across the Middle East, was of a circular flat Earth that rested on pillars above the abode of the dead - Sheol (all the dead went to sheol in the earlier accounts). And yes, above the Earth is a vaulted metal roof translated in English as "firmament," which had the waters of heaven that could be rained down on Earth, as on the occasion when Yahweh decided to open the floodgates of the heavens for 40 days and 40 nights. The stars of heaven hung from the firmament - as described in the Book of Job, and above the heavens that were visible and the firmament, were the abodes of the angels and Yahweh himself.

Some ancient artists conceptualized the firmament as dome shaped in at least one crude depiction of a man traveling such a far distance that he arrived at the ends of the Earth where the walls of the firmament rested on the Earth. It's worth a mention that the circular Earth was not the only Cosmic depiction -- a square Earth must have been the idea of some Old Testament writers who use terms like "four corners of the earth" and "the four winds" that blow from them.

Incidentally, the fundamentalists who keep trotting out Isaiah 40:22 verse...which describes Yahweh sitting on a throne above the "circle of the earth," try to conflate circle to mean sphere; when in fact Hebrew had two separate words for circle and sphere. If the writer of Isaiah really thought the Earth was a sphere, he would have used the proper term in his description of the Cosmos

[WIP]

Eh? You still believe in a flat earth? Didn't you read the Bible?

I was hoping you would recognize the irony of denying scientific evidence that doesn't mesh with ancient mythological stories of creation! And, if I wanted to be fundamentalist hardliner on divine creation, I would have to also accept a Cosmic description of a flat Earth at the center of the Cosmos, with the Sun and planets circling around underneath the Firmament.

Allegorical explanations for flat earth descriptions had to be made by the time mariners started traveling long distances at sea, and noticed effects that showed a curvature of the surface of the Earth -- a ship's mast being visible before the lower portion of the ship can be viewed, would be one example. In Galileo's time, The Church was digging in its heels because of heliocentric cosmologies, and today it's the luddites who deny the fossil and genomic evidence for evolution from common origins. If that ever gets settled, the next big hurdle will be fundamentalists against modern neuroscience (Discovery Institute has already started working on this one) which has demolished traditional notions of dualism and free will....and judging from the reactionary movement against evolution, that could take a few centuries!

Didn't you see the round blue earth's photo from outer space?

According to Tom Bishop on the Flat Earth Forums, all of these pictures and videos from space are fake!....sounds convincing to me!

Are you one of those who still believe the landing on the moon was fake?

Oh! I thought the Moon landings were already proven to have been staged at Area 51.

Just because you don't acknowledge the obvious CLEAR, UNDISPUTED and IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE....etc.,

Well, I didn't before, but now that I've seen the large bold type I'm convinced!

[betsy]

Well, I didn't before, but now that I've seen the large bold type I'm convinced!

Good. I developed this style because I noticed all Neo-darwinists also seem to have a hard time seeing.

[Saipan]

Some ancient artists conceptualized the firmament as dome shaped in at least one crude depiction of a man traveling such a far distance that he arrived at the ends of the Earth where the walls of the firmament rested on the Earth. It's worth a mention that the circular Earth was not the only Cosmic depiction -- a square Earth must have been the idea of some Old Testament writers who use terms like "four corners of the earth" and "the four winds" that blow from them.

What was the scientific description at that time?

[Bob]

Proselytization is a crime in Israel. I'm not really in support of such a law, because I believe in freedom of expression, but that's just how things are over here. Perhaps it is obvious, but this law predominantly affects Christian and Muslim denominations, since proselytization isn't a component of contemporary Judaism.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Bob

[Saipan]

Proselytization is a crime in Israel.

No. It's a crime in most Arab countries.

But in Afghanistan it's punishable by death.

[Chippewa]

I believe everybody has a right to believe as they wish, but I think they should not push those beliefs on others. Worship as you wish, but stop bothering people about it!

You could have been an advocate for First Nations when they were getting abducted by Churches and Government for the Purpose of Murdering them in Residential Schools. We needed this sorta attitude 40-50 years ago in Canada.

[betsy]

You could have been an advocate for First Nations when they were getting abducted by Churches and Government for the Purpose of Murdering them in Residential Schools. We needed this sorta attitude 40-50 years ago in Canada.

40-50 years ago in Canada.

Exactly!

All that angst....all that heavy weight still being lugged around on weary shoulders - worse, being shifted on to yet younger shoulders like a relay torch. What a burden to pass on to the younger generations. It only generates more resentment, more anger, more angst.....that only weakens instead of uplift.

For some of us...it's like watching replays of the same movie, or listening to the same oldie several times. It's lost its relevance....one gets tired of it.....so its full meaning and significance - what we should avoid from happening again - start sounding like the same tired dialogue from a cheesy soap, the drama is diluted and gets replaced with eye-rolling!

And for what??? Something that happened 40 to 50 years ago.

So people and society 40-50 years go messed up big time. I'm not denying that a grievous atrocity was done to the native Indians. It was an atrocity. A black mark on our history.

One that shouldn't ever happen again!

But it's all history now.

Don't you think it's about time to bury that hatchet? No offense intended.

Start looking towards the future with optimism - for the sake of the younger generation.

If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!

Edited July 27, 2011 by betsy

[pinko]

"If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!"

Talk is cheap. What are you doing about it?

[Oleg Bach]

No, the ancient Hebrew conception of the Cosmos, which was consistent all across the Middle East, was of a circular flat Earth that rested on pillars above the abode of the dead - Sheol (all the dead went to sheol in the earlier accounts). And yes, above the Earth is a vaulted metal roof translated in English as "firmament," which had the waters of heaven that could be rained down on Earth, as on the occasion when Yahweh decided to open the floodgates of the heavens for 40 days and 40 nights. The stars of heaven hung from the firmament - as described in the Book of Job, and above the heavens that were visible and the firmament, were the abodes of the angels and Yahweh himself.

Some ancient artists conceptualized the firmament as dome shaped in at least one crude depiction of a man traveling such a far distance that he arrived at the ends of the Earth where the walls of the firmament rested on the Earth. It's worth a mention that the circular Earth was not the only Cosmic depiction -- a square Earth must have been the idea of some Old Testament writers who use terms like "four corners of the earth" and "the four winds" that blow from them.

Incidentally, the fundamentalists who keep trotting out Isaiah 40:22 verse...which describes Yahweh sitting on a throne above the "circle of the earth," try to conflate circle to mean sphere; when in fact Hebrew had two separate words for circle and sphere. If the writer of Isaiah really thought the Earth was a sphere, he would have used the proper term in his description of the Cosmos

Naw - sure there were pillars...and sure there is an end of the earth - it's called space...There are a lot of discriptions but some ancients really believed that the earth was a sphere - why would they have to wait a thousand years to come to that conclution - as if mankind got smarter? There were people on this earth 10 thousand years ago who understood who and where they were...the metaphorical descriptions were mere poetry.

[WIP]

40-50 years ago in Canada.

So people and society 40-50 years go messed up big time. I'm not denying that a grievous atrocity was done to the native Indians. It was an atrocity. A black mark on our history.

One that shouldn't ever happen again!

But it's all history now.

Don't you think it's about time to bury that hatchet? No offense intended.

Start looking towards the future with optimism - for the sake of the younger generation.

If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!

First, it's a black mark in history which was perpetrated by people who think exactly like you do and would do again if the opportunity was available.

Second, the residential school system, which lingered on longer than 40 or 50 years ago, destroyed communities that had their children forcibly removed by taking children away from their parents, and cutting the ties with extended family. All well and good now to say 'put the genie back in the bottle' just because you can't deal with this issue.

[kimmy]

If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!

Yeah, I bet the aboriginals are just hoping the crazy church lady comes and helps them through their trouble... sounds like exactly the kind of help they need more of.

-k

[Remiel]

If I may foolishly revive a debate that seems to have died off...

Take these two statements:

1) I lack belief in a god.

2) There is no god.

It appears to me that the defenders of atheism in this thread are arguing that atheism is 1, while plenty of people who call themselves atheists are in fact 2. Calling them atheists may be something of a misnomer, however. They might be more properly called anti-theists.

Furthermore, I am not sure how you would argue that someone ought to have a lack of belief. So if someone is telling you that everyone should be an atheist, chances are their arguments will in fact reveal them as anti-theists.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Remiel

[M.Dancer]

If I may foolishly revive a debate that seems to have died off...

Take these two statements:

1) I lack belief in a god.

2) There is no god.

ummmm....doesn't 1) naturally lead to 2)?

I mean....how would someone say, "I lack a belief in a god..but there is one."

I mean, if you lack belief in a god it stands to reason you do not believe there is a god....

And to differentiate from the agnostic, who states they lack the ability to know absolutely whether there is a god or not, or the absolute knowledge that an definitive knowledge of god is possible.

Myself, I lean toward agnostism...tending to believe if there is a supernatural being, its awareness of humanity is akin to our own awareness of dust mites....otherwise, a god the meddles in our affairs is more likely to be a sociopathic psychopath who rightly should be destroyed.

[Remiel]

ummmm....doesn't 1) naturally lead to 2)?

I mean....how would someone say, "I lack a belief in a god..but there is one."

I mean, if you lack belief in a god it stands to reason you do not believe there is a god....

And to differentiate from the agnostic, who states they lack the ability to know absolutely whether there is a god or not, or the absolute knowledge that an definitive knowledge of god is possible.

Myself, I lean toward agnostism...tending to believe if there is a supernatural being, its awareness of humanity is akin to our own awareness of dust mites....otherwise, a god the meddles in our affairs is more likely to be a sociopathic psychopath who rightly should be destroyed.

I think 1 could characterize agnostics and sceptics. 2 does not necessarily follow 1 at all.

1, I think, does in fact follow from " I cannot know whether a god exists or not " . I mean, if you cannot be sure whether one exists, you can neither really have a belief about him existing nor a belief about him not existing, merely a lack of belief in either proposition.

[Bonam]

It's funny how hung up people get on trying to precisely separate the meaning of terms such as "agnostic" and "atheist" when it comes to the proposition of a mystical sky fairy ruling over us and wrathfully punishing us since ancient times. It's so silly I don't know how people can take themselves seriously when discussing it.

[dre]

ummmm....doesn't 1) naturally lead to 2)?

I mean....how would someone say, "I lack a belief in a god..but there is one."

I mean, if you lack belief in a god it stands to reason you do not believe there is a god....

And to differentiate from the agnostic, who states they lack the ability to know absolutely whether there is a god or not, or the absolute knowledge that an definitive knowledge of god is possible.

Myself, I lean toward agnostism...tending to believe if there is a supernatural being, its awareness of humanity is akin to our own awareness of dust mites....otherwise, a god the meddles in our affairs is more likely to be a sociopathic psychopath who rightly should be destroyed.

And to differentiate from the agnostic, who states they lack the ability to know absolutely whether there is a god or not, or the absolute knowledge that an definitive knowledge of god is possible.

Man... what? Shouldnt pretty much anyone that hasnt personally MET god qualify for that?

[Remiel]

It's funny how hung up people get on trying to precisely separate the meaning of terms such as "agnostic" and "atheist" when it comes to the proposition of a mystical sky fairy ruling over us and wrathfully punishing us since ancient times. It's so silly I don't know how people can take themselves seriously when discussing it.

Where did not (edit: this should have been " you ") get the idea that I was talking about a mythical sky fairy, or any notion that makes sense out of this thoughtless hyperbole? You are buried deep in the box, man.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Remiel