Harper's Stance on Obama's Palestinian Plan

[bush_cheney2004]

The 'USA is to blame for everything' crowd would like us to forget their old chums from the Cold War era...the Rooshins. Oh...and of course Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh.

The only time for the US to worry is when they stop bitchin' and complainin'....like Dylan said:

...I wouldn't change it even if I could

You know what they say, man, it's all good.

It's all good.

All good.

[GostHacked]

So the US 'started' the Cold War. Not the Soviets building the Iron Curtain. Interesting.

Takes two to do the dance. Both sides were key to starting the Cold War.

[DogOnPorch]

Takes two to do the dance. Both sides were key to starting the Cold War.

Oh, do explain the start of the Cold War in detail. Meh...you wouldn't know where to start.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh, do explain the start of the Cold War in detail. Meh...you wouldn't know where to start.

I know...I know...it started with the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock!

[Guest American Woman]

Takes two to do the dance. Both sides were key to starting the Cold War.

So you are saying, in effect, whenever there is a conflict, since it "takes two to do the dance," both sides are to blame. Equally. One side is never drawn into it; one side is never simply reacting. Since it takes two to Tango, there's always equal blame, in every situation. Is that it?

[Saipan]

Takes two to do the dance. Both sides were key to starting the Cold War.

The Slave World vs. The Free World.

The Slave World lost.

FINI.

[ConservativelyRadical]

But the Israeli leaderships doesn't claim that their "weather satellites" are going to be used to drive the Iranians into the sea….then there’s North Korea, which doesn’t need “weather satellites”, since the Dear Leader controls the weather…..they’re just building ICBMs

Iran doesn't need ICBM's to hit Israel, and even if they did it would mean instant annihilation in response. They may be religious and angry but that doesn't mean they are ready to have their entire nation destroyed on a suicide mission pretty much guaranteed to failure.

Even most of the Israeli's I debate(okay, mainly argue) with admit Iran is no real threat to Israel and any attempt to attack Israel would be suicide for them, but they push that angle simply because the masses over here in the "West"(mainly U.S.A) who have been "programmed" with the "National Security State" mentality are gullible enough to buy it - if for no other reason than that Mid-East politics is a very complex and confusing thing to wade into and it's easier to just accept the official views put forward by our government's and media than deal with the headaches of trying to understand all of the details of it ourselves.

But when the U.S, Russia, Britain, China etc. are constantly flaunting all their weaponry, especially in that region, while at the same time telling Iran they can't develop their own similar technology of course that is just going to make them want that technology 10x more.

Yeah, we're just building "launch vehicles" for satellites...wink, wink.

Kind of like how Israel's large undeclared and thus illegal nuclear arsenal doesn't really exist... wink, wink.

To go from typical geo-political cock-jockeying to nuclear Armageddon is a big stretch, even for the fanatics in Iran.

The 'USA is to blame for everything' crowd would like us to forget their old chums from the Cold War era...the Rooshins. Oh...and of course Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh.

The U.S.A is and was never to blame "for everything", it is just one of the main catalysts for establishing all of the necessary components to enact a "globalized agenda". Those behind it are from many different countries and hold allegiances to no country at all.

Like the U.S.S.R once the U.S Empire's job has been completed the U.S Empire will be purposefully led to crumble in order to pave the way for the next phase - the North American Union. That already began quite a while ago actually according to some people's views, but we'll see what the next 2 years hold and go from there.

Have you ever wondered why the Allies - both American and British - did nothing to stop the Soviets after WWII until after they had spread into the Mid-East and Asia and established themselves securely as a "global menace"?

The Soviet philosophy regarding expansionism was well known long before WWII began, just look at the Soviet flag with it's communist hammer and sickle super-imposed over the entire globe for a good symbol of Soviet policy. The Soviet's reign of terror on their own people was also well known long before WWII, including the purposeful worsening of a drought through policies enacted by Lenin that killed over 10 million people simply because they were resistant to the Soviet doctrine.

Not to mention the mass-murders and numerous atrocities involving far more gruesome acts, not the least of which being the Katyn Forest Massacre.

The Americans and British knew exactly what the Soviet's were planning and they handed large portions of Europe, the Mid-East and Asia to them on a silver platter immediately following WWII when they had all the forces in place to stop them.

Only when the Soviets had established themselves as a force that would allow 50 years or more of the U.S "National Security State" and perpetual war did the Americans and British decide to lift a finger to "combat" them.

Have you ever wondered why Truman's "Point 4 Plan" to combat communism called for almost the exact same policies the communists themselves were pursuing, as outlined briefly by American Communist Party leader Earl Browder in "Tehran, Our Path in War and Peace"?

Global communism was never the objective, and neither is or was capitalism - both are after the same thing, being financed by the same people.

This isn't a "conspiracy theory", it is a theory about a conspiracy that is well documented.

Definition of CONSPIRACY

1: the act of conspiring together

Definition of THEORY

1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

Of course that depends on whether you dismiss the well documented facts because the you don't like the messengers providing them.

See "revisionism" as an example - the last debate I saw between a revisionist and a conventional historian was quite funny - the evil revisionist kept referring back to the thousands and thousands of actual WWII documents he'd spent his whole life criss-crossing the world to collect and study, while the "mainstream" historian kept referring to books written by other people that were mostly referenced from other books that were referenced from other books, etc.

Say I have a document in my hand authored by Hitler himself - you have the opinion of a guy who reviewed the opinions of another guy after that guy reviewed the opinions of another guy and came to an "expert" conclusion based entirely on opinions and impossible to track back to any actual documentation.

"Expert opinions" win over hard facts?

Revisionists must be dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" entirely simply because they can't be intelligently debated when they have so many documented facts to support them against an establishment built on opinions and official propaganda.

I once dismissed revisionists outright myself, but when I actually decided to review the revisionist material in detail I was amazed at just how easily everything over the past century fell right into place and made perfect sense.

Not of all it is beyond reproach by any means, everyone is biased and that gets into their writings no matter how much they may try to avoid it and some do stray from the documentation on some issue and engage in a bit of conspiracy theories too.

But why not review it for yourself before drawing conclusions on it?

It won't kill you, in theory... but if you get into the Holocaust material your "ass is grass" here in Canada, free speech be damned if you speak illegally.

The Institute for Historical Review has a vast database that is a good place to start:

http://www.ihr.org/main/search.shtml

"Obama's plan for Palestine" is not really Obama's plan, just as Truman's "Point 4 Plan" wasn't really Truman's plan, or Earl Browders for that matter.

I'd be willing to bet that within 2 years(possibly the next 6-9 months) we will see the expansion of Israel's borders(while acting in "self defense" no doubt) to establish "Greater Israel" as a direct result of "Obama's plan for Palestine".

Is that the same plan that now see's American and Israeli supported "citizen groups" in Egypt that had no involvement in the initiation of the Revolution(they on the side being revolted against) but thanks to the media there are now pulling a new "Bolsheviki shuffle" and establishing themselves as the main "peoples movement" to take control and completely undo that revolution's achievements in ousting the foreign control?

The Egyptians started the revolution, but it has been hijacked by outsiders once again.

Typical, but of course just a conspiracy theory.

Anyways, dismiss away...

[DogOnPorch]

Holy Bilderberger, Batman!

[bush_cheney2004]

....The Egyptians started the revolution, but it has been hijacked by outsiders once again.

Typical, but of course just a conspiracy theory.

Anyways, dismiss away...

Well, quite frankly, it is very typical and unbeknownst to you, every angle you've offered (and quite a few more) have already been posited on this forum. I was hoping for something much more original and bereft of the usual American-centric theories that are so commonplace. The "New World Order" thing has been done to death.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, quite frankly, it is very typical and unbeknownst to you, every angle you've offered (and quite a few more) have already been posited on this forum. I was hoping for something much more original and bereft of the usual American-centric theories that are so commonplace. The "New World Order" thing has been done to death.

I suspect The Penguin or perhaps The Joker.

[bush_cheney2004]

I suspect The Penguin or perhaps The Joker.

Well, at least those criminals were American!

[DogOnPorch]

Well, at least those criminals were American!

[Guest Derek L]

Iran doesn't need ICBM's to hit Israel, and even if they did it would mean instant annihilation in response. They may be religious and angry but that doesn't mean they are ready to have their entire nation destroyed on a suicide mission pretty much guaranteed to failure.

Even most of the Israeli's I debate(okay, mainly argue) with admit Iran is no real threat to Israel and any attempt to attack Israel would be suicide for them, but they push that angle simply because the masses over here in the "West"(mainly U.S.A) who have been "programmed" with the "National Security State" mentality are gullible enough to buy it - if for no other reason than that Mid-East politics is a very complex and confusing thing to wade into and it's easier to just accept the official views put forward by our government's and media than deal with the headaches of trying to understand all of the details of it ourselves.

But when the U.S, Russia, Britain, China etc. are constantly flaunting all their weaponry, especially in that region, while at the same time telling Iran they can't develop their own similar technology of course that is just going to make them want that technology 10x more.

Yeah, we're just building "launch vehicles" for satellites...wink, wink.

Kind of like how Israel's large undeclared and thus illegal nuclear arsenal doesn't really exist... wink, wink.

To go from typical geo-political cock-jockeying to nuclear Armageddon is a big stretch, even for the fanatics in Iran.

If Iran doesn’t need ICBMs to hit Israel……why are they developing them?

Also, let’s assume Israel is trying to “program the masses in the West”; what is their reason to do this?

The “U.S, Russia, Britain, China etc” are not flaunting their ICBM technology “over there”……..In the American’s case, their’s is being “flaunted” deep in the North Pacific & Atlantic oceans and North Dakota, Wyoming and Montana……

Again, the leaders of the “U.S, Russia, Britain, China etc” are not “inspiring” their people with promises of driving the Jewish people into the sea……

[ConservativelyRadical]

Well, quite frankly, it is very typical and unbeknownst to you, every angle you've offered (and quite a few more) have already been posited on this forum. I was hoping for something much more original and bereft of the usual American-centric theories that are so commonplace. The "New World Order" thing has been done to death.

Well, at least those criminals were American!

Aw, so that is the issue - the conspiracy theories supported by facts just won't die and keep being repeated, so that means they are obviously false, eh?

You want me to make up some bullshit you haven't heard before in place of the dull but true facts you've heard so many times before?

Or is it just that the "NWO conspiracies" strip your precious U.S.A of it's "super-power" status and mean the "Great Satan" is actually just a "Great Stooge" to some greater power(s), like every other nation on Earth is supposed to be for the U.S.A?

Not surprisingly people like you completely and totally dismissing the facts as "conspiracy theories" as if that title automatically makes it untrue is quite common too.

Could you be more original please?

Maybe explain how the "Old World Order" of the British Empire days has not been replaced by a "New World Order" dominated by international banking syndicates, as is the basis for what the "NWO conspiracies" were originally born from?

It is mainly American's who think it's all an "American plot" to take over the world, most of the rest of the world knows it's an international operation that the Americans are just a pawn in like everyone else.

The fact Americans fail to realize their true powerlessness is what garners so much "ignorant American" sentimentality - Israel has more power over the U.S government than American citizens do these days(yes, even under Obama). Do you honestly think you have any real power?

Do you have a corporate empire that has greater "representative power" than the Israel lobby, have all the dual Israeli-American citizens in the U.S Senate and Congress under your influence, and have a ton of money to bribe or offer "economic incentives" for persuasion?

Because that is the minimum requirement for you as an American citizen to actually have any real power in your country.

But yeah, the U.S.A rules the world!

[Guest Derek L]

Aw, so that is the issue - the conspiracy theories supported by facts just won't die and keep being repeated, so that means they are obviously false, eh?

You want me to make up some bullshit you haven't heard before in place of the dull but true facts you've heard so many times before?

Or is it just that the "NWO conspiracies" strip your precious U.S.A of it's "super-power" status and mean the "Great Satan" is actually just a "Great Stooge" to some greater power(s), like every other nation on Earth is supposed to be for the U.S.A?

Not surprisingly people like you completely and totally dismissing the facts as "conspiracy theories" as if that title automatically makes it untrue is quite common too.

Could you be more original please?

Maybe explain how the "Old World Order" of the British Empire days has not been replaced by a "New World Order" dominated by international banking syndicates, as is the basis for what the "NWO conspiracies" were originally born from?

It is mainly American's who think it's all an "American plot" to take over the world, most of the rest of the world knows it's an international operation that the Americans are just a pawn in like everyone else.

The fact Americans fail to realize their true powerlessness is what garners so much "ignorant American" sentimentality - Israel has more power over the U.S government than American citizens do these days(yes, even under Obama). Do you honestly think you have any real power?

Do you have a corporate empire that has greater "representative power" than the Israel lobby, have all the dual Israeli-American citizens in the U.S Senate and Congress under your influence, and have a ton of money to bribe or offer "economic incentives" for persuasion?

Because that is the minimum requirement for you as an American citizen to actually have any real power in your country.

But yeah, the U.S.A rules the world!

Let’s assume there is a New World Order, one that “pulls the puppet strings of the United States”, if said NWO is so powerful, why haven’t they silenced the likes of Alex Jones or you for that mater if their powers of subversion are so great………I’d think “They” wouldn’t want the secret getting out……

[bush_cheney2004]

Aw, so that is the issue - the conspiracy theories supported by facts just won't die and keep being repeated, so that means they are obviously false, eh?

Such theories are oft repeated regardless of any "facts". Occam's razor is just too boring I guess.

You want me to make up some bullshit you haven't heard before in place of the dull but true facts you've heard so many times before?

Yes...I need some new "bullshit". Got any?

Or is it just that the "NWO conspiracies" strip your precious U.S.A of it's "super-power" status and mean the "Great Satan" is actually just a "Great Stooge" to some greater power(s), like every other nation on Earth is supposed to be for the U.S.A?

I wish that were the case...but methinks you would still channel the source right back to America and American surrogates.

Not surprisingly people like you completely and totally dismissing the facts as "conspiracy theories" as if that title automatically makes it untrue is quite common too.

I love facts...please present some. In fairness to you as a new member here, we have been over such things many, many times, and I do hold out hope for something...anything new. I respectfully recommend a review of previous threads and posts by other members to understand the experience herein.

Could you be more original please?

Maybe explain how the "Old World Order" of the British Empire days has not been replaced by a "New World Order" dominated by international banking syndicates, as is the basis for what the "NWO conspiracies" were originally born from?

Not only have we covered this before, but we have also expounded on the very need for such "conspiracy theories".

It is mainly American's who think it's all an "American plot" to take over the world, most of the rest of the world knows it's an international operation that the Americans are just a pawn in like everyone else.

America has already taken over the world...at least your perception of it. Anti-American rants from Canada are mainly imported from...you guessed it...America.

The fact Americans fail to realize their true powerlessness is what garners so much "ignorant American" sentimentality - Israel has more power over the U.S government than American citizens do these days(yes, even under Obama). Do you honestly think you have any real power?

Yes...I have all the "real power" I will ever need. I do not spend time worrying about life revolving around Jupiter....because I already live there. This second order thread is based on the policy statement of my president...not yours.

Do you have a corporate empire that has greater "representative power" than the Israel lobby, have all the dual Israeli-American citizens in the U.S Senate and Congress under your influence, and have a ton of money to bribe or offer "economic incentives" for persuasion?

Sure...but even AIPAC is an American lobby, not Israeli. More powerful lobbies would include the NEA, AARP, military contractors, trial lawyers, "Big Oil", etc. It's all good.

Because that is the minimum requirement for you as an American citizen to actually have any real power in your country.

Do you resent the fact that you have even less power?

But yeah, the U.S.A rules the world!

That's fine....I just wanted to cut to the chase. You are a new member with very old ideas. Welcome aboard!

[CPCFTW]

Yes...I have all the "real power" I will ever need. I do not spend time worrying about life revolving around Jupiter....because I already live there. This second order thread is based on the policy statement of my president...not yours.

Notwithstanding the nonsensical conspiracy theories of the new poster, this is a funny comment on a Canadian Politics board. Seems you do spend some time worrying about life outside of your borders by your existence in this forum. But maybe I misinterpreted this comment since I haven't read much of the thread.

[bush_cheney2004]

Notwithstanding the nonsensical conspiracy theories of the new poster, this is a funny comment on a Canadian Politics board. Seems you do spend some time worrying about life outside of your borders by your existence in this forum. But maybe I misinterpreted this comment since I haven't read much of the thread.

A fair comment made by others before, but you will note that I am mostly interested in the manifestations of America in/for Canadians. My journey to Canadian forums began in 2002 during the run up to war in Iraq, and it has been a fascinating source of curiosity and entertainment. I could disappear tonight but America would remain in spades. This very web site is hosted...in America (Texas).

[ConservativelyRadical]

Let’s assume there is a New World Order, one that “pulls the puppet strings of the United States”, if said NWO is so powerful, why haven’t they silenced the likes of Alex Jones or you for that mater if their powers of subversion are so great………I’d think “They” wouldn’t want the secret getting out……

First off Alex Jones and all those seeking primarily to make money for themselves are not interested in the honest truth, I doubt most of them have ever even heard of historical revisionism and base most of their own theories on rumors and pure conjecture, not facts.

Some of what they say may be true or pretty close to true, but much of it is just invented to sell books and videos and such.

But silencing those who speak out would only serve to give credibility to what are now largely viewed as nothing but conspiracy theories.

If the majority believed them they would not be called conspiracy theories now. As long as they are considered conspiracy theories by the majority there is no reason to do anything that would lend credibility to the theories.

Although in the case of Holocaust Revisionism specifically there are laws against it in most countries today and lots of revisionists have been imprisoned and forcefully silenced on that issue, for nothing more than trying to bring real fully authenticated and undeniable WWII documents to public attention in some cases.

As I said before, free speech in this country and most others these days only applies as long as your words are deemed to be legal...

As long as they are only spouting conspiracy theories they are easier to dismiss than to silence, but the powers that be have no fear in silencing them if they take one step too far and get too much attention. A simple press article picked up and spread by the Echo Chamber outing that conspiracy theorist as a possible terrorist sympathizer, pedophile, communist subversive, anarchist, Holocaust denier or whatever the flavor of the day label is will end any credibility that person had with the general masses, even if the claims end up being proven completely false in the end.

Our entire society is based on perceived social status and very few people are going to follow someone who is relegated to the proverbial gutter of our society even if they know what they say is true - it goes against the natural ambition to succeed in life, it goes against going with the flow.

People like Alex Jones only make so much money because they avoid the real issues and sell whatever the masses will buy into, they have some hits but far more misses when it comes to actual truth.

Revisionists in general have lost far more money banking on the truth than they will ever make from their work because they truly care about finding the truth. Alex Jones and most of his ilk are just cashing in on public paranoia.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Although in the case of Holocaust Revisionism specifically there are laws against it in most countries today and lots of revisionists have been imprisoned and forcefully silenced on that issue, for nothing more than trying to bring real fully authenticated and undeniable WWII documents to public attention in some cases.

As I said before, free speech in this country and most others these days only applies as long as your words are deemed to be legal...

For the record, you can say what you please about the Holocaust in the US without fear of so called hate speech prosecution or HRC hearings. Pretty ironic considering that the country is (allegedly) controlled by an Israeli-American lobby.

Revisionists in general have lost far more money banking on the truth than they will ever make from their work because they truly care about finding the truth. Alex Jones and most of his ilk are just cashing in on public paranoia.

Now that's something I can agree with. Alex Jones and Infowars are refugees from cable television local access gone terribly wrong.

Edited May 31, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

First off Alex Jones and all those seeking primarily to make money for themselves are not interested in the honest truth, I doubt most of them have ever even heard of historical revisionism and base most of their own theories on rumors and pure conjecture, not facts.

Some of what they say may be true or pretty close to true, but much of it is just invented to sell books and videos and such.

But silencing those who speak out would only serve to give credibility to what are now largely viewed as nothing but conspiracy theories.

If the majority believed them they would not be called conspiracy theories now. As long as they are considered conspiracy theories by the majority there is no reason to do anything that would lend credibility to the theories.

Although in the case of Holocaust Revisionism specifically there are laws against it in most countries today and lots of revisionists have been imprisoned and forcefully silenced on that issue, for nothing more than trying to bring real fully authenticated and undeniable WWII documents to public attention in some cases.

As I said before, free speech in this country and most others these days only applies as long as your words are deemed to be legal...

As long as they are only spouting conspiracy theories they are easier to dismiss than to silence, but the powers that be have no fear in silencing them if they take one step too far and get too much attention. A simple press article picked up and spread by the Echo Chamber outing that conspiracy theorist as a possible terrorist sympathizer, pedophile, communist subversive, anarchist, Holocaust denier or whatever the flavor of the day label is will end any credibility that person had with the general masses, even if the claims end up being proven completely false in the end.

Our entire society is based on perceived social status and very few people are going to follow someone who is relegated to the proverbial gutter of our society even if they know what they say is true - it goes against the natural ambition to succeed in life, it goes against going with the flow.

People like Alex Jones only make so much money because they avoid the real issues and sell whatever the masses will buy into, they have some hits but far more misses when it comes to actual truth.

Revisionists in general have lost far more money banking on the truth than they will ever make from their work because they truly care about finding the truth. Alex Jones and most of his ilk are just cashing in on public paranoia.

If that’s the case, do “truth seekers” such as yourself not fear for your own safety? Have you encountered the “Smoking Man” yet? What about Black Choppers and Brain Gravy?

Now if people such as yourself that currently “out the NWO” are only “playing into the hands of the NWO”, perhaps it’s time to change tactics……Perhaps going “mainstream” and fighting “the power” from within might be one possible move…….

[Saipan]

First off Alex Jones and all those seeking primarily to make money for themselves are not interested in the honest truth

And you're ready to post evidence now.

I doubt most of them have ever even heard of historical revisionism and base most of their own theories on rumors and pure conjecture, not facts.

You're accusing strawmen. Nothing easier than that.

Some of what they say may be true or pretty close to true, but much of it is just invented to sell books and videos and such.

Like global warm up claptrap by Rev. Al Gore? Or children stories by Michael Moore?

If the majority believed them they would not be called conspiracy theories now. As long as they are considered conspiracy theories by the majority there is no reason to do anything that would lend credibility to the theories.

And without evidence that is what they are.

Although in the case of Holocaust Revisionism specifically there are laws against it in most countries today and lots of revisionists have been imprisoned and forcefully silenced on that issue, for nothing more than trying to bring real fully authenticated and undeniable WWII documents to public attention in some cases.

Name one.

As I said before, free speech in this country and most others these days only applies as long as your words are deemed to be legal...

True, you still can't yell FIRE in crowded theatre.

As long as they are only spouting conspiracy theories they are easier to dismiss than to silence, but the powers that be have no fear in silencing them if they take one step too far and get too much attention.

That is why Communism fell. And in last three countries is on life support.

[eyeball]

So you are saying, in effect, whenever there is a conflict, since it "takes two to do the dance," both sides are to blame. Equally. One side is never drawn into it; one side is never simply reacting. Since it takes two to Tango, there's always equal blame, in every situation. Is that it?

In this situation it is, even professional historians can't agree on who started the Cold War so it's appropriate to assume both did. Anything less suggests that history will never rise above being more than politics projected back in time.

[Smallc]

So Harper does support Obama. That's mot surprising, given that Obama was simply iterating long standing policy in a way that was more frank than usual.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/06/01/pol-israel-borders.html