Bill Maher "Nails It"

[Michael Hardner]

Looking over this thread and comparing to those who sought to trap Jesus with words back in the day, it's kind of sad and it's the same as it ever was.

Not the same. What's sad is that Christianity has been perverted into a kind of nationalism and Chauvinism that had nothing to do with the original teachings. If anybody points out that this has happened, many Christians would rather close ranks or lash out at others, rather than to examine their hearts.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not the same. What's sad is that Christianity has been perverted into a kind of nationalism and Chauvinism that had nothing to do with the original teachings. If anybody points out that this has happened, many Christians would rather close ranks or lash out at others, rather than to examine their hearts.

Nonstarter...many of the "original teachings" are incompatible with progressive concepts, including women's rights. Christianity had to evolve just like anything else.

[Michael Hardner]

Nonstarter...many of the "original teachings" are incompatible with progressive concepts, including women's rights. Christianity had to evolve just like anything else.

But as we discussed earlier in the thread, there are teachings and there are teachings.

"Don't lend money." That one was dropped, and Europe invented investment and the resultant explorations and economic boom that gave them dominance.

"Don't get divorced." Took a little longer, but that was evolved out of many Christian religions.

You can't evolve the whole thing, though, or it's not Christianity any more.

[eyeball]

Actually I don't really understand what you're saying, but I'll try to address it.

Here is what Jesus said and expect us to do:

Romans 13: 1-10

Submission to Governing Authorities

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Is this why God is in our constitution?

Jesus and anyone else who expects me to just unquestioningly submit to the above as a matter of faith can go fly a kite.

Obviously you were referring to my previous response, so let me make that clear:

It depends on the seriousness of the crime!

Do you expect someone who stole a chocolate bar or someone guilty of slander to be punished in the same way cold-blooded muderers are punished?

As you said it yourself, it depends.

[Pliny]

It depends on the seriousness of the crime. Even if the victim had forgiven the perpetrator.....aren't cases termed as such, "The people vs John Doe?

In the States it is the people vs John Doe. In Canada it is the Crown vs John Doe.

Our government represents the Crown. The American government represents the people.

[bush_cheney2004]

But as we discussed earlier in the thread, there are teachings and there are teachings.

"Don't lend money." That one was dropped, and Europe invented investment and the resultant explorations and economic boom that gave them dominance.

...but tithings are demanded to get into heaven?

"Don't get divorced." Took a little longer, but that was evolved out of many Christian religions.

See "anullment"

You can't evolve the whole thing, though, or it's not Christianity any more.

They had to evolve the whole thing or Christianity would be extinct.

[bush_cheney2004]

In the States it is the people vs John Doe. In Canada it is the Crown vs John Doe.

Our government represents the Crown. The American government represents the people.

Yep...from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address:

...that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Edited May 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

...but tithings are demanded to get into heaven?

See "anullment"

Don't take these things up with me.

They had to evolve the whole thing or Christianity would be extinct.

The base value system is intact, though.

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't take these things up with me.

You brought them up first.

The base value system is intact, though.

Not for me to say...Christianity is for Christians. I am Pagan.

[betsy]

You can't evolve the whole thing, though, or it's not Christianity any more.

We can't change anything at all in the Bible. Clearly stated by Christ.

So yes, when we accept adultery, promiscuity, homosexual relationships/marriage, etc., as normal lifestyles.....it's not Christianity anymore.

Edited May 23, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Is this why God is in our constitution?

Who were the forefathers? What were they?

[Sir Bandelot]

I am Pagan.

So you wear horns and a breast-plate?

[Michael Hardner]

We can't change anything at all in the Bible. Clearly stated by Christ.

So yes, when we accept adultery, promiscuity, homosexual relationships/marriage, etc., as normal lifestyles.....it's not Christianity anymore.

What about loaning money ?

[bush_cheney2004]

So you wear horns and a breast-plate?

No, but I do wear goat chaps and got up early today to see the planetary conjunction. We sacrificed a lamb.

[betsy]

What about loaning money ?

It's okay to lend money. There was a parable about the servant who was forgiven by the king for not paying his loan, BUT that same servant did not show the same leniency to another poor guy who failed to pay him - the servant - for loaned money. He demanded that the poor guy be sent to the dungeon. When the king heard of this - the servant's unforgiving attitude - he threw the servant in prison!

The moral here is that God will show you the same mercy you show to others.

There is something against usury though. I think.

Edited May 23, 2011 by betsy

[Saipan]

Speaking of which.

The Richest Man in Babylon is well worth reading.

[Michael Hardner]

It's okay to lend money.

There are edicts in the bible against lending, and I believe the Church forbade it until around the reformation.

[eyeball]

Who were the forefathers? What were they?

They were deluded beyond belief whoever they were.

[Saipan]

They were deluded beyond belief whoever they were.

You believe that?

[bloodyminded]

Or....perhaps the flag-waving and display of celebration was more of a tit-for-tat directed towards the Muslims who celebrated on the street during 9/11.

Oh, lord, a lot more innocent Muslims have been killed than we could number in a lot of 9/11's...and I don't see a lot of people being too sad or disturbed by this fact (they range between not giving a single good goddamn, all the way up to actively enjoying the fact). So I don't think we can quite fit upon that high horse just yet.

Edited May 24, 2011 by bloodyminded

[cybercoma]

I don't condone the celebrations in the streets over Bin Laden's death. However, it's not at all the same thing to compare celebrating his death with celebrating the death of thousands of innocent civilians.

[betsy]

Oh, lord, a lot more innocent Muslims have been killed than we could number in a lot of 9/11's...and I don't see a lot of people being too sad or disturbed by this fact (they range between not giving a single good goddamn, all the way up to actively enjoying the fact). So I don't think we can quite fit upon that high horse just yet.

Did you see anyone on tv celebrating - cheering and dancing on the streets - the death of the innocent Muslims? I didn't.

Did you see Muslims on tv celebrating - cheering and dancing on the streets - the death of innocents from 9/11? I did.

Do you need to actually see people being sad, and just because you didn't see anyone weeping over casualties of war, you point your accusing finger that therefore they were the same as those Muslims who blatantly rejoiced over the deaths of innocents from 9/11.

Forgive me but I can't help but question not only your logic....but also where your loyalty lies. I assume you are a Canadian. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited May 24, 2011 by betsy

[Moonlight Graham]

Did you see anyone on tv celebrating - cheering and dancing on the streets - the death of the innocent Muslims? I didn't.

Did you see Muslims on tv celebrating - cheering and dancing on the streets - the death of innocents from 9/11? I did.

Do you need to actually see people being sad, and just because you didn't see anyone weeping over casualties of war, you point your accusing finger that therefore they were the same as those Muslims who blatantly rejoiced over the deaths of innocents from 9/11.

Let's flip that last paragraph around on you. Just because you didn't see American's/westerners jumping and celebrating in the streets from our militaries blowing up innocent Muslims, doesn't mean some don't love it. I know personally, or have heard of others i don't know personally, who want to "bomb them all" and hate all the Muslims over there, terrorists or civilians.

Some of them are "Christians".

If you gleefully celebrate the death of a human being, or wish someone dead as "justice", you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of the what Jesus preached was forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. That's Christianity!

The Lord's Prayer, the prayer Jesus taught his followers and which most Christians say over and over, says "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Why do these Christians go to church every week, yet apparently don't even listen and follow what is being preached? Sounds like a fine waste of a nice Sunday. I think this Sunday there's swath of people who need to hit the confession box and confess their sins.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[bloodyminded]

Did you see anyone on tv celebrating - cheering and dancing on the streets - the death of the innocent Muslims? I didn't.

Did you see Muslims on tv celebrating - cheering and dancing on the streets - the death of innocents from 9/11? I did.

Do you need to actually see people being sad, and just because you didn't see anyone weeping over casualties of war, you point your accusing finger that therefore they were the same as those Muslims who blatantly rejoiced over the deaths of innocents from 9/11.

Forgive me but I can't help but question not only your logic....but also where your loyalty lies. I assume you are a Canadian. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not drawing a direct equivalence; I'm saying that Westerners by and large don't give a damn about the deaths of foreigners, especially when the West itself shares responsibility for these deaths.

(And of course many people enjoy the idea of "the terrorists"--meaning all Muslims--being offed in large numbers. Do you really doubt that????)

The moral stance, Betsy, is to be less concerned with how Official Enemies behave, and more concerned about how we behave. This is elementary morality, that we teach our three-year-olds, but become hostile to whenever we conduct any military operations.

Well, the weak-minded sycophants among us, anyway.

And it's on-topic, too: it's a direct and unequivocal teaching of Christ. Motes and Beams. Or are we to ignore that one as well, and say it's "not meant to be taken literally"?

As for "loyalty to Canada"...get outta my face with that nonsense. If you were to think Canada was doing something wrong, and yet you believed "loyalty" overrode your moral sense...well, that's evidence of a shatttered moral compass. Patriotism is not an ethical component of human makeup.

Edited May 25, 2011 by bloodyminded

[betsy]

Let's flip that last paragraph around on you. Just because you didn't see American's/westerners jumping and celebrating in the streets from our militaries blowing up innocent Muslims, doesn't mean some don't love it.

Of course who knows what's in people's hearts. I'm sure that there are also many Muslims all over the world who sincerely sympathized and emphatized with the victims of 9/11.

Bloodyminded made a rematk which came across as a chastisement/rebuke because westerners did not show any emotions over casualties of war, thereby pegging their moral compass down....equating them with those who blatantly rejoiced on the streets over the deaths of innocents - whom by the way are most probably likely to have no problem at all using innocent children as suicide bombers.

The point is: Did any westerners openly celebrate the deaths of innocent Muslims?