Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 And how does the church's recognition of a just war fit into your definition? I suppose it depends on what is being said. I doubt you will find any member of the church establishment openly hating their enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 TimG. Only Christians should criticize Christians, for...some reason. Enter Michael Hardner. Dilemma solved. I grew up surrounded by liberal Christians who advocated against war, sheltered refugees from fascist regimes in South America and lived their lives as Christians - in other words the difficult way. It's very strange to love your enemy, but if you're Christian you have to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Mayer does nail it perfectly. I've been saying the same thing about OBL and Obama, and Christian leaders and their foreign policies. Stephen Harper, Obama, Bush, whomever, they are shitty Christians Christ's main message was about loving thy neighbour, forgiveness, and non-violence. Quite hypocritical that Bush and Obama, the holy Christians they are, torture and execute people, when jesus himself was tortured and executed without resistance to "die for our sins". Looks like we're still sinning. I'm not making a judgment call on the OBL raid, i'm saying if you're a Christian and for torture/gitmo and murdering your enemy, you ain't a good Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 There is nothing in Christianity that says capital punishment is wrong. LOL really? You do realize that Jesus was executed via capital punishment by the Romans, right? He did not resist, and died to show us how wrong it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I grew up surrounded by liberal Christians who advocated against war, sheltered refugees from fascist regimes in South America and lived their lives as Christians - in other words the difficult way.That was their politics. They used their religious to justify it.It's very strange to love your enemy, but if you're Christian you have to do it.No more Christian than saying the world was created 6000 years ago or that home sexuality wrong.What grates me about Mahar is he acknowledged that he has no problem with killing Bin Laden but they criticizes Christians for agreeing with him. It is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 That was their politics. They used their religious to justify it. No,it was their faith and their conviction and it came directly from unambiguous teachings they received from the Gospel. No more Christian than saying the world was created 6000 years ago or that home sexuality wrong. If you're going to ignore the direct teachings of Jesus then why even call yourself Christian ? What grates me about Mahar is he acknowledged that he has no problem with killing Bin Laden but they criticizes Christians for agreeing with him. It is absurd. Why is it absurd ? He's a critic so he calls out hypocrisy. It is his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Why is it absurd ? He's a critic so he calls out hypocrisy. It is his job. It is not his job to invent his own interpretations of the bible and then falsly claim that his interpretations are universally accepted interpretations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Where is the hypocrisy though ? There's nothing in atheism that denies the necessity of war in some cases is there ? There is nothing in Christianity that denies the necessity of war in some cases either. Only those who don't understand the doctrine/Bible make the mistake of assuming Christians cannot go to war! Question: "What does the Bible say about war?" Answer: Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war. In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17). Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20). It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves? War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7). http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 It is not his job to invent his own interpretations of the bible and then falsly claim that his interpretations are universally accepted interpretations. His interpretation of the bible is to follow the word of Jesus as quoted. I wouldn't even call it an interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 There is nothing in Christianity that denies the necessity of war in some cases either. Only those who don't understand the doctrine/Bible make the mistake of assuming Christians cannot go to war! Of course. But what isn't in question is "love thine enemy". The Catholic church does as good a job as any of explaining how these can be compatible. You won't find, though, that they will advocate a direct contradiction of Jesus' teaching as is proposed here. Folks, you can twist it around any number of ways, but in the end you're basically saying that you know what it means to be Christian more than Jesus did. Hate your enemy if you must, but it's not Christian to do so. If you do it, then it's a failing and you must repent. This is such a central tenet of Christianity that it's almost impossible to see it any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 A shot to the head for a mass murderer is justice - not vengence. True. Especially when he is bent on killing more innocents! We should love our neighbors as much as we love ourselves. If you see your neighbors getting massacred, wouldn't you fight for their lives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Christians are only allowed to kill others after they're born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 True. Especially when he is bent on killing more innocents! We should love our neighbors as much as we love ourselves. If you see your neighbors getting massacred, wouldn't you fight for their lives? Exactly. That's why Hardner's interpretation of things is asinine. He's basically equating being Christian with being a pacifist. Apparently that's Bill Maher "nailing it." The ignorance is unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 The ignorance is unbelievable. Take it up with Christ. They're his teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 True. Especially when he is bent on killing more innocents! We should love our neighbors as much as we love ourselves. If you see your neighbors getting massacred, wouldn't you fight for their lives? What Would Jesus Do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) It was a metaphor. Metaphors require interpretation. His literal reading is as brain dead as those who say the earth is 6000 years old. The fact that some Christians might agree with his interpretation does not mean he can claim that all Christians should think the same. Edited May 20, 2011 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I could use the Coles Notes on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Take it up with Christ. They're his teachings. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I could use the Coles Notes on this thread.Summary: people who have nothing but contempt for Christians call Christians hypocrites for agreeing with them. It is a trip into the twilight zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Mark this day down folks.... I'm in rare agreement with The Professor... Now I have to go punish myself for agreeing with The Professor... OMG, clearly the end of the world is nigh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) Rejoicing in the death of a murderer is not exactly a Christian thing to do. But that does not mean, bad people should be given free reign to continue doing bad things. Bad people need to be stopped, and doing this is a grim and sombre task. Once done, we should only feel pleased that the bastard is gone, but not at the price we had to pay in order to do it. Thou shalt not kill is an ideological statement, without conditions. It may not be realistic to uphold it in all circumstances, that is the nature of the "beast". See, there's our ideals, and there's the problems that reality brings to us, when we are directly involved and have no choice but to act. I, like you am fortunate. I was not directly involved and did not have to act. Therefore it's easy for me to sit on the fence and say, OBL was an evil man and was killed by other evil men. Evil, not because of the things they are forced to do in dire circumstances, but because of the things they chose to do by their own free will. Edited May 20, 2011 by Sir Bandelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Exactly. That's why Hardner's interpretation of things is asinine. He's basically equating being Christian with being a pacifist. Apparently that's Bill Maher "nailing it." The ignorance is unbelievable. Well hold on... you dont really have to be a pacifist to believe its wrong to execute an unarmed prisoner. Thats actually a pretty main-stream belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) Well hold on... you dont really have to be a pacifist to believe its wrong to execute an unarmed prisoner. Thats actually a pretty main-stream belief.If Maher made that argument he would have a point to make. The trouble is he did not. He said he is ok with the murdering unarmed prisoner thing and went on to criticize Christians who agreed with him. It is an absurd argument. Edited May 20, 2011 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Rejoicing in the death of a murderer is not exactly a Christian thing to do. Yes. I don't think rejoicing and celebrating his death is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Well hold on... you dont really have to be a pacifist to believe its wrong to execute an unarmed prisoner. Thats actually a pretty main-stream belief. These are soldiers who not only have the go signal to shoot-to-kill.....but they're also humans nursing perhaps deep rage over the killings of hundreds in 9/11 and other attacks in the world. Well I do hope (for Bin Laden's sake) that he's truly dead. I'm not a theory conspiracy advocate.....but since we didn't see the body....I can't help but wonder if he's not being held somewhere alive.....and getting tortured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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