Ontario Fall election

[Black Dog]

So where's the non-native equivalent to Lasagna?

Lasagna is an Italian-American dish. Pretty sure the natives didn't have pasta.

[Shwa]

I think those are subjective based on your political perspective. I think cost cutting and reining in public spending is essential. Workfare isn't offensive to me.

That is all you got out of it? "workfare?" Which is not really offensive to me either, when it is implemented properly and for the right reasons. However, you asked why people thought the Harris Government had a bad rep. You can see for yourself by using critical thinking. If you are unable to see why some might have a problem with Harris' government then you are merely demonstrating one of those failings with regard to education that cut back on critical thinking as part of the curriculum. That might have been caused by the Harris government. So there you go.

BTW you didn't answer my question. What's the difference between the Common Sense Revolution and what Paul Martin did.

What is the difference between economic policies enacted on a provincial scale as opposed to a federal jurisdiction? You'll either have to get serious or be more specific.

[Boges]

That is all you got out of it? "workfare?" Which is not really offensive to me either, when it is implemented properly and for the right reasons. However, you asked why people thought the Harris Government had a bad rep. You can see for yourself by using critical thinking. If you are unable to see why some might have a problem with Harris' government then you are merely demonstrating one of those failings with regard to education that cut back on critical thinking as part of the curriculum. That might have been caused by the Harris government. So there you go.

What is the difference between economic policies enacted on a provincial scale as opposed to a federal jurisdiction? You'll either have to get serious or be more specific.

Paul Martin balanced the books in the late 90's early 2000's by cutting services. They both also benefited from a robust economy. They also downloaded services to the level of government below them.

Why I'm bringing this up is that the kind of stuff that Harris did, are the kind of things we sort of need now. The province has a $19 billion deficit. Something's gotta give and considering the taxes we pay and the price we pay for hydro and gasoline I don't think we need to pay more taxes as a whole.

How about you argue the issues with me instead of telling me I'm dumb.

[charter.rights]

How about you argue the issues with me instead of telling me I'm dumb.

I think they are the same issue.

[flemingetq]

Now we, Ontarians will have another election and I think voters will have to stop and think before deciding, even though the view is out with the Liberals. If you cast out the Libs then its the NDP and the PC and with the PC you still have Harris in the minds of many voters. The NDP leader is not that well know, but, could the orange crush happen in Ontario. The only thing a voter should do is listen to their platforms. I wish my satellite provider had kept the Ontario legislature on, that is the best way to see how this leaders lead. http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3110172

It should be intresting to see whaqt is promised and then done

[Shwa]

Paul Martin balanced the books in the late 90's early 2000's by cutting services. They both also benefited from a robust economy. They also downloaded services to the level of government below them.

What "services" did Paul Martin cut compared to Mike Harris?

What EI or pension program did Harris use to declare surpluses? Did Harris even declare budget surpluses with the Common Sense Revolution?

When the Tories were thrown out of power in Ontario, did they have a deficit or a surplus?

Etc. The problem being one of scope. I will agree that there are similarities with some policies and some of the approaches. But a direct one-to-one comparison to justify the acts of another is a iffy proposition and a bit of a cheap argument.

Why I'm bringing this up is that the kind of stuff that Harris did, are the kind of things we sort of need now. The province has a $19 billion deficit. Something's gotta give and considering the taxes we pay and the price we pay for hydro and gasoline I don't think we need to pay more taxes as a whole.

But you say above that both Martin and Harris benfitted from a robust economy and, while I am not economist, I think I can safely say that today we do not benefit from a robust economy. I think our approaches need to a little different.

I tend towards fiscal conservatism myself, even though I think the population can stand a significant tax hike at this point in time. The sheer volume of garbage that fills houses as an indication of a high 'standard' of living is out of whack with what we can truly 'afford' as does the level of inefficiency in government organization and private corporations. I prefer incentives over force.

How about you argue the issues with me instead of telling me I'm dumb.

I'm not telling you that you are dumb.

[Molly]

A major Harris F-up was asset sales. That toll highway, for instance, should never have been put in private hands.

The education cuts, though... there might have been more orderly ways to do it, and better sets of priorities within it, but the system still looks downright obese to me. We transferred a kid from Sask near the end of it, and found the (remaining) luxury and waste absolutely staggering. Listening to the wailing and breastbeating about cuts felt like a step through the looking glass.

[Boges]

A major Harris F-up was asset sales. That toll highway, for instance, should never have been put in private hands.

The education cuts, though... there might have been more orderly ways to do it, and better sets of priorities within it, but the system still looks downright obese to me. We transferred a kid from Sask near the end of it, and found the (remaining) luxury and waste absolutely staggering. Listening to the wailing and breastbeating about cuts felt like a step through the looking glass.

Under Daddy Dalton the teachers get whatever they want. That's why the Teacher's Union is taking money away from their membership to campaign against the Tories.

Sorry but that's gotta change.

[Molly]

McGuinty has the advantage of not being dangerous. He's already done most of the really stupid things on a bland agenda, and resting on hold for a while probably wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't say I see the alternatives as positive change. John Tory would have been premier last time but for that unpredictable burst of electoral enthusiasm, creating new(ish) policy on the fly.

WRT the union campaigning.... yes, that's way out of line, but in keeping with well-established tradition. The open politicking we ran into while interacting with all things school surprised us even more than the profligate spending habits. We percieved it as disgracefully unprofessional. Still do.

[Boges]

McGuinty has the advantage of not being dangerous. He's already done most of the really stupid things on a bland agenda, and resting on hold for a while probably wouldn't be a bad idea. I can't say I see the alternatives as positive change. John Tory would have been premier last time but for that unpredictable burst of electoral enthusiasm, creating new(ish) policy on the fly.

WRT the union campaigning.... yes, that's way out of line, but in keeping with well-established tradition. The open politicking we ran into while interacting with all things school surprised us even more than the profligate spending habits. We percieved it as disgracefully unprofessional. Still do.

You don't think the precedent set by the Samsung deal isn't dangerous?

[Molly]

Precedent?

(You should read some Frank Herbert with particular attention to the notions surrounding Jorj S. McKie, Saboteur.)

The last thing we need is someone brand new, champing at the bit with a whole fresh list of equally creative ideas. A change is not a rest-- the deficit is deep enough, the burden of taxation heavy enough already.

[Evening Star]

The education cuts, though... there might have been more orderly ways to do it, and better sets of priorities within it, but the system still looks downright obese to me. We transferred a kid from Sask near the end of it, and found the (remaining) luxury and waste absolutely staggering. Listening to the wailing and breastbeating about cuts felt like a step through the looking glass.

Could you expand on this? Are you talking strictly about elementary/secondary education or post-secondary as well? I'm really curious since I'm in the field of post-secondary education, which really doesn't seem obese to me, although it's certainly doing better than in parts of the States. Actually, I'll be teaching much smaller classes for better pay in SK in the fall.

I was in high school during the Harris era, actually. I don't remember the cuts as being super-devastating but I also never had the feeling that the system was excessively bloated, although I'm not even sure what that would mean tbh.

--

OK, let me fix that. I was in both high school and undergrad in the Harris era. The ramp-up in tuition over the course of my four years of undergrad was definitely impressive. I tend to blame Martin for that at least as much as Harris though.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Evening Star

[Molly]

Oh, sorry. I don't pay a lot of attention here, so I'm a little slow to respond.

The really low-hanging fruit is the fact that our street-- 22 occupied homes-- was served by 7 different school buses, every morning and every afternoon. They all travelled nearly empty, and more or less 2 by 2, because the schools they were heading to were each in near proximity to at least one other with a similar function. That was obvious big money, and so was/is 13 grades and 2 years of kindergarten, compared to the 12 grades with one year of part-time, optional kindergarten taht we came from.

Overall, though, our sprout gained access to class options beyond his wildest dreams... with labs, gyms, shops, stages all with the attendant instruments, tools and supplies all at his fingertips... meanwhile, community resources- things like free use of the curling rink- were left untapped.

There was a moratorium on new school construction, so portables were everywhere, but the style of thought was such that the schools being planned were two or three times the size where (sense of community and) economies of scale run out, and located so that not a nickel of busing saving was likely to be gathered. It all seemed very foolish.

Along in then there was a great to-do about the possibility that some Toronto schools would no longer be able to afford their pools... (Imagine school pools.) There were lots of other luxury things, too... whole bands and classes and squads going on excursions overseas or across the continent or... some of which they paid for and some of which the taxpayers picked up... lots of single event stuff.

The 'double-cohort' was extra-bulgy, too, when a lot of kids graduated, but came back to spend another year, mostly in order to mature. (That seemed so odd, that they were so reluctant to spread their wings, so dependent, so unripe.) I have wondered, but not researched, how many provinces would make such post-graduate students welcome, and under what conditions.

So, to my mind and experience, there was lots and lots and lots of room left for savings. There was miles to go to get to what was/is normal for, probably most of the rest of Canada. I'd love to know how... deluxe... things were before they were supposedly 'destroyed'.

..........

Meanwhile, various members of the staff- a guidance counsellor, a classroom teacher, a vice-principal- while dealing with us in a professional capacity, bitched at length about the government of the day. It honestly seemed like it had become a habit of speach. Extremely unprofessional. I found it pretty shocking. (The reluctance to face any kind of accountability was... overdeveloped.)

[Evening Star]

Yeah, with secondary education, I can see some of the things you're talking about, though we didn't have school swimming pools iirc! Stuff like "Do your OAC in France!" seemed a little OTT to me even then. 13 grades was totally unnecessary, I agree. I graduated in 1997 so I guess I missed the full force of the cuts to elementary/secondary ed and felt them in university. (Actually, I remember teachers bitching about Rae's social contract in my day!)

Oh, sorry. I don't pay a lot of attention here, so I'm a little slow to respond.

The really low-hanging fruit is the fact that our street-- 22 occupied homes-- was served by 7 different school buses, every morning and every afternoon. They all travelled nearly empty, and more or less 2 by 2, because the schools they were heading to were each in near proximity to at least one other with a similar function. That was obvious big money, and so was/is 13 grades and 2 years of kindergarten, compared to the 12 grades with one year of part-time, optional kindergarten taht we came from.

Overall, though, our sprout gained access to class options beyond his wildest dreams... with labs, gyms, shops, stages all with the attendant instruments, tools and supplies all at his fingertips... meanwhile, community resources- things like free use of the curling rink- were left untapped.

There was a moratorium on new school construction, so portables were everywhere, but the style of thought was such that the schools being planned were two or three times the size where (sense of community and) economies of scale run out, and located so that not a nickel of busing saving was likely to be gathered. It all seemed very foolish.

Along in then there was a great to-do about the possibility that some Toronto schools would no longer be able to afford their pools... (Imagine school pools.) There were lots of other luxury things, too... whole bands and classes and squads going on excursions overseas or across the continent or... some of which they paid for and some of which the taxpayers picked up... lots of single event stuff.

The 'double-cohort' was extra-bulgy, too, when a lot of kids graduated, but came back to spend another year, mostly in order to mature. (That seemed so odd, that they were so reluctant to spread their wings, so dependent, so unripe.) I have wondered, but not researched, how many provinces would make such post-graduate students welcome, and under what conditions.

So, to my mind and experience, there was lots and lots and lots of room left for savings. There was miles to go to get to what was/is normal for, probably most of the rest of Canada. I'd love to know how... deluxe... things were before they were supposedly 'destroyed'.

..........

Meanwhile, various members of the staff- a guidance counsellor, a classroom teacher, a vice-principal- while dealing with us in a professional capacity, bitched at length about the government of the day. It honestly seemed like it had become a habit of speach. Extremely unprofessional. I found it pretty shocking. (The reluctance to face any kind of accountability was... overdeveloped.)

[MiddleClassCentrist]

The really low-hanging fruit is the fact that our street-- 22 occupied homes-- was served by 7 different school buses, every morning and every afternoon. They all travelled nearly empty, and more or less 2 by 2, because the schools they were heading to were each in near proximity to at least one other with a similar function. That was obvious big money, and so was/is 13 grades and 2 years of kindergarten, compared to the 12 grades with one year of part-time, optional kindergarten taht we came from.

Blame Catholics for hating the world and demanding that they segregate their children from novel ideas and good science, using public funds. Public and French board... Becomes Public, French, Catholic, Catholic-French that's 4 different busing options right there.

The 'double-cohort' was extra-bulgy, too, when a lot of kids graduated, but came back to spend another year, mostly in order to mature. (That seemed so odd, that they were so reluctant to spread their wings, so dependent, so unripe.) I have wondered, but not researched, how many provinces would make such post-graduate students welcome, and under what conditions.

Teacher friends say they are discouraged from coming back and encourage them to move on. It seems like a waste of life for them to stay for another year, unless they really need it.

So, to my mind and experience, there was lots and lots and lots of room left for savings. There was miles to go to get to what was/is normal for, probably most of the rest of Canada. I'd love to know how... deluxe... things were before they were supposedly 'destroyed'.

Try funding a computer engineering program with $5-10 a student... Yeah, the system is bloated now... lol.

Meanwhile, various members of the staff- a guidance counsellor, a classroom teacher, a vice-principal- while dealing with us in a professional capacity, bitched at length about the government of the day. It honestly seemed like it had become a habit of speach. Extremely unprofessional. I found it pretty shocking. (The reluctance to face any kind of accountability was... overdeveloped.)

You hold teachers to a higher standard than regular people. Regular people bitch about their job and how their boss is changing the process and the quality of program/efficiency will drop.

Second, any government that has a high school drop out as education minister should be declared legally insane, likewise with anyone who supports said minister... Especially after that minister is caught saying that "We need to create a crisis in public education" ... You remember that Molly, don't you?

Edited July 8, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Evening Star]

Blame Catholics for hating the world and demanding that they segregate their children from novel ideas and good science, using public funds. Public and French board... Becomes Public, French, Catholic, Catholic-French that's 4 different busing options right there.

I know that it's constitutionally protected but, yes, I think the biggest fundamental problem with public education in ON is public funding for Catholic schools (and no, Tory's proposal would not have helped things.

Btw, I'd kind of been assuming that, since they're publicly funded, our Catholic schools still have to teach a standard curriculum when it comes to e.g. evolution. Tell me I'm not wrong?

You hold teachers to a higher standard than regular people. Regular people bitch about their job and how their boss is changing the process and the quality of program/efficiency will drop.

Do agree here.

And since I may not have been clear earlier, I genuinely think that higher education is in a state of dire crisis right now.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I know that it's constitutionally protected but, yes, I think the biggest fundamental problem with public education in ON is public funding for Catholic schools (and no, Tory's proposal would not have helped things.

That is actually a myth. They are guaranteed the ability to have their own education system. It does not say that they need to have a publicly funded education system.

Btw, I'd kind of been assuming that, since they're publicly funded, our Catholic schools still have to teach a standard curriculum when it comes to e.g. evolution. Tell me I'm not wrong?

Of course it is in the curriculum. But the quality of their education is actually lower since the Catholic Faith MUST be included in all subjects. Catholic faith trumps rational thought.

Not only that but they don't have qualified people teaching many subjects, Technological Education (Construction, Manufacturing, etc) is often taught by 'people who just happen to be catholic with a degree'. Rather than someone from industry with professional experience.

And since I may not have been clear earlier, I genuinely think that higher education is in a state of dire crisis right now.

I personally blame Harris for this one. He took away the teacher's ability to grade learning skills. Learning skills (work habits, ability to learn independently, etc) are the most important for any young learner. Who cares what you know if you can acquire the knowledge and skills tomorrow?

[Molly]

Blame Catholics ....

Teacher friends say they are discouraged from coming back ....

Try funding a computer engineering program with $5-10 a student...

You hold teachers to a higher standard than regular people. ....

"We need to create a crisis in public education" ... You remember that Molly, don't you?

There was/is a lot more to the profligacy than the Catholic/everyone else segregation. (Or French language segregation, which didn't play any role in our 7 buses situation, and is money well spent in any case) It was either stupidity or dishonesty that required all of the high school students of this (largish, fast-growing and likely-to-be long-term) settlement area to be bused down the road to a different community instead of being served here where they live. It's additionally wasteful to have kids who live side-by-side being bused to their choice of 5 different schools in two different towns. (I can't really argue with the special needs bus, but it would probably be cheaper to pay the kids parents to deliver him.)

Higher standard? I think not. If the local hardware store clerk devoted the time mixing my paint to calling down the store owner, I'd darned well expect to see a different face next time in (if I came in a next time). We could devote a whole thread to the ethics of teaching, and how much political comment is appropriate on company time, but in 50ish years of dealings with teachers and schools it was an entirely new experience to me, and I didn't like it. (And in Saskatchewan schools of my experience, it would get you unemployed.)

The 'create a crisis' quote predated my arrival in Ontario by several years, and Mr. Snobelin had long since ceased to be education minister.... In a way that's what makes the whole thing so... fascinating/otherworldly. I was not here for the upheaval or the transition. Only the result.

The howls coming out of the Ontario education system were loud enough that I was handed chapter and verse of it by teachers in Saskatchewan (beyond news reports) long before we even contemplated coming here. I was led to believe that we would see an education sytem that was entirely broken, cut to the bone and beyond.... (Considering that we chose our location to access a school-based program that was unavailable in any but a very few places, it was a matter of some confusion and curiousity.) We found a system that was much more richly appointed than any we had previously experienced.

Such disfunction as it suffered was not based in 'no money and too much interference', but in not having a rational standard or a clear direction. Best resoponse to situations like that is to cut well past the comfort zone, and then start trickling money back to the highest priorities. (Whereas cutting alone happens to the places it's least difficult to neglect, rather than the places least deserving.)

'Create a crisis' was a public relations gift, but it's also a valid and extremely useful strategy for change. I've used it; you've used it. He was an idiot to get caught naming it, but it was also the right thing to do.

Oh, and the computer engineering program-- seek the extra money from, for instance, the busing budget. I think we're both saying here that spending priorities are a bit wonky.

[Boges]

Quite frankly, the education debate is irrelevant to most voters.

If you expect the average voter to vote for Daddy Dalton again because they think Hudak will "create a crisis" in the teaching community you're delusional.

Hudak comes from a family of teachers, so I doubt he'll be as punitive as Harris was to teachers. But teachers have gotten everything they wanted in the past 8 years, they may need to give a lil back.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Boges

[Molly]

Well, as a voter, I'd welcome some rational conversation about it. Many things about it furrow my brow.... the taxes I pay, for a start; the quality of graduates/certification populating my world; what the role of schools actually is.

We need to decide whether it's a babysitting service or an education system, for a start- know what the goal is, and therefore what the priorities are.

I'd say we even need to decide who makes the decisions! Mr. McGuinty clearly responds to the loudest noise... Does Hudak instead respond to the greatest need?

(Hudak's background is largely irrelevant. Harris was a teacher.)

[thepatrickblack]

We need to decide whether it's a babysitting service or an education system, for a start- know what the goal is, and therefore what the priorities are.

Agreed, pick one. I think it needs to do only one thing well and that is educate children.

The other issue for me is energy. Are we getting the Darlington nuclear plants? Are we continuing with the Green Act? We need a 'better energy plan' - http://abetterenergyplan.ca/#/news/Nuclear_plants

[treehugger]

I know that it's constitutionally protected but, yes, I think the biggest fundamental problem with public education in ON is public funding for Catholic schools (and no, Tory's proposal would not have helped things.

Btw, I'd kind of been assuming that, since they're publicly funded, our Catholic schools still have to teach a standard curriculum when it comes to e.g. evolution. Tell me I'm not wrong?

Do agree here.

And since I may not have been clear earlier, I genuinely think that higher education is in a state of dire crisis right now.

JOHN TORY wouldn't have helped a darn thing. He is such an arrogant, bighead he can't see past the end of his nose.

Edited July 12, 2011 by treehugger

[treehugger]

Well, as a voter, I'd welcome some rational conversation about it. Many things about it furrow my brow.... the taxes I pay, for a start; the quality of graduates/certification populating my world; what the role of schools actually is.

We need to decide whether it's a babysitting service or an education system, for a start- know what the goal is, and therefore what the priorities are.

I'd say we even need to decide who makes the decisions! Mr. McGuinty clearly responds to the loudest noise... Does Hudak instead respond to the greatest need?

(Hudak's background is largely irrelevant. (((((( Harris was a teacher.)))))THAT'S UNFORTUNATE!

[Boges]

I think Daddy Dalton has signed his death warrant with this move.

The Ontario Public Service is bracing for job cuts that could put more than 1,000 bureaucrats out of work, as Dalton McGuinty’s government seeks to demonstrate a commitment to austerity before a fall election.

Asked for a progress report on efforts to shrink the bureaucracy by 5 per cent, a senior provincial official said the government has identified more than half the jobs being trimmed. But the process will be accelerated in the months ahead, with deputy ministers informed that they need to be more aggressive in order to reach the target by this summer.

My link

OPSEU has been militant about portraying Hudak as Mike Harris 2.0. And now they compare Dalton's moof to trim spending to "The worst cuts, since Mike Harris"

It can only be an appeal to the more conservative wing of his base.

I predict this party will suffer a similar fate as their Federal cousins. They're going to be squeezed from both sides on this issue.

He's probably not going to appeal to those on the right that might think this austerity measure doesn't go far enough. And it might jettison those on the left into the arms of an, I have to admit, impressive Ontario NDP leader in Andrea Horvath.

It would appear Election defeat for the Ontario Liberals is a forgone conclusion at this point.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Boges

[Dithers]

I don't hate education or healthcare. But what we have in Ontario is an insatiable public service that will never be satisfied with what they have. You have to keep throwing money at it or they'll threaten to not teach our kids to read and/or allow our grandparents to die in the street.

Something has to give. Either we fundamentally change the way we deliver public services or we resign ourselves to the fact that taxes will continue to go up and up.

BTW there's a difference between lowering taxes to business and asking public services to cut back. Public services are entirely reliant on the taxpayer. Whereas a private business creates it wealth and the government takes money from it, when a tax cut is give it's not like that money is taken away from the government. The private citizen and/or business is just allowed to keep more.

Yes, actually, you clearly do hate education and healthcare. Attack the teachers?

Are you insane? The wealth of the province is not being concentrated in teachers, or any public service.