BubberMiley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Actually, complete nonsense refers to something you know absolutely nothing about. Why do you continue to makes stuff up? You didn't even look at the document I cited, did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Michael Moore for one. That's all you got? Michael Moore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 ... As long as there are people like those saying the Pentagon was a legitimate target while crying out about the 'wrongdoing of shooting an unarmed bin Laden,' there would have ultimately been nothing positive to gain by his capture while having to deal with all of the negative. Their's is just more of the continuous critical bleating we have seen/heard from the beginning, be it airline travel security, anti money laundering measures, wire taps, increased border security, prisoner renditions, waterboarding, drone strikes, etc. It is no wonder they would complain about the pinnacle act of purposely ending Bin Laden's life with an American made bullet. You can please some of the people none of the time, so why bother trying? This is why I wish Obama would just say his piece and then let it go. I don't think that is politically possible, given the upcoming election season and other negative domestic concerns. The SEAL team members who actually completed the mission are more than happy to quietly go away....so they can do it again someplace else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 It sounds as if they already got more information than they would have ever gleaned from bin Laden. I can just hear the outcries and accusations of torture from the rest of the world the whole time, too, regardless of the reality. As long as there are people like those saying the Pentagon was a legitimate target while crying out about the 'wrongdoing of shooting an unarmed bin Laden,' there would have ultimately been nothing positive to gain by his capture while having to deal with all of the negative. You can please some of the people none of the time, so why bother trying? This is why I wish Obama would just say his piece and then let it go. Well, I don't think the Pentagon is a legitimate target unless the US is at war with another country. While I am somewhat satisfied with OBL's death, I think it is legitimate to decry his assassination as going against certain western values. Torture and/or assassination may be convenient, but to justify them as they have been justified goes against a long list of values that even American Republicans used to espouse (or, at least, I think they may have at one time?). The point of being the "good guys" is that we, through our messy democratic system, come up with systems that deal with justice. Yes, it is a nice neat package to send a team of well-trained soldiers into another country to kill some bastard. But that's something I expect from the "bad guys." What I expect from "us" good guys is to capture him if possible (and it sounds like it could have been done) put him on trial, and then hang him as part of serving justice. Yes, I know, that involves a lot of effort but it would make "us" look better and make the Islamic fascists look like the turds that they are. For me, I consider the execution without judge/jury to be a minor fault of the operation, but it is a fault nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 While I am somewhat satisfied with OBL's death, I think it is legitimate to decry his assassination as going against certain western values. Torture and/or assassination may be convenient, but to justify them as they have been justified goes against a long list of values that even American Republicans used to espouse (or, at least, I think they may have at one time?). Maybe superficially, but assassination is a very very American "value", and indeed a "western" value based on history, and not "legitimate" by design. The point of being the "good guys" is that we, through our messy democratic system, come up with systems that deal with justice. The "good guys" have done a lot of damage over the years for domestic and international policy. Yes, it is a nice neat package to send a team of well-trained soldiers into another country to kill some bastard. But that's something I expect from the "bad guys." They would if they could....we can and did. What I expect from "us" good guys is to capture him if possible (and it sounds like it could have been done) put him on trial, and then hang him as part of serving justice. Why? To serve what purpose? To accept which additional risk(s)? Yes, I know, that involves a lot of effort but it would make "us" look better and make the Islamic fascists look like the turds that they are. Sometimes just appearances sake is also not worth it. For me, I consider the execution without judge/jury to be a minor fault of the operation, but it is a fault nonetheless. Then you would find fault in many military operations past. This one is no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Better for who? Better for America. I think having their great figurehead locked in a jail living on humus and flatbreat would be more depressing for his followers than believing he died like a hero and is getting a martyr's reward. I think it would have great propaganda value to be able to parade him around like a zoo animal and lock him up in orange overalls like a common criminal. That's just my opinion. Regardless, I'm pretty happy that he got what he had coming. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) Better for America... Better for Obama too....the metamorphosis of 2008 candidate Barack Obama is now complete. He is a war president who can bring the hammer down. He has out-Bushed George Bush. "Yes we can!" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110506/ap_on_an/us_reimagining_obama_analysis Edited May 7, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Better for America. I think having their great figurehead locked in a jail living on humus and flatbreat would be more depressing for his followers than believing he died like a hero and is getting a martyr's reward. I think it would have great propaganda value to be able to parade him around like a zoo animal and lock him up in orange overalls like a common criminal. That's just my opinion. Regardless, I'm pretty happy that he got what he had coming. -k That is possibly true, but I think you can also make the argument that it is better for the morale of Americans that he is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 American Woman already asked this, but what was the screw up? Bin Laden was killed. The White House is obviously uncomfortable with having okay'd an assassination. So they're spinning multiple stories in order to mitigate any negative foreign impact. Apparently you deathers are still having trouble grasping this simple concept. Get a life guys. No, this has been handled abominably by the Obama administration. They should have figured out their message and then said it. Why are they continuing to change things? First there was a forty minute firefight, then not. Then Bin Laden was armed, then he wasn't. His wife died because he hid behind her, except now she didn't. Now we learn only one guy in the compound was armed and he was killed very early on. All of these shifts and changes are amateur hour. Why even tell us anything other than he was killed? And since they own the news, why not hold to the long firefight, or at least not tell us that no one was armed? It makes them look bad in many parts of the world. Personally, I don't care how bin laden died, but it is bad horribly bad communications. There’s no way around it: Barack Obama has taken the greatest public relations triumph of his presidency and ruined it. Not completely ruined it, no: the take-out of Osama bin Laden, America’s public enemy number one is too big an achievement to be completely undone by the president’s ham-handed handling of the aftermath. But he’s done an admirable job of taking the shine off of one of his nation’s most gloried moments by turning Americans’ attention from celebrating together to arguing over a couple of photographs and whether or not a crack team of Navy SEALs were merciful enough in their treatment of one of history’s most notorious mass murderers. Obama bungles his bin laden opportunity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 That's all you got? Michael Moore? You asked who's crying about it. I told you. What's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Capital punishment must function under the rule of law if at all. I personally don't believe that you can kill evil...If you kill evil you feed evil...and the Americans are not very wise in these respects. The exact moment when we knew “international law” had little to say about the war against terrorism came on November 3, 2002. That was the day an American Predator drone, flying high above the Yemeni outback 100 miles east of Sanaa, fired a Hellfire missile into a car containing al-Qaeda’s local commander, Abu Ali al-Harithi, and five jihadi comrades. Photos of the scene show a black hole in the ground where the car once stood — a suitable metaphor for the once-fashionable notion that “international law” trumps a nation’s right to defend itself. Bin laden's killing shows us the irrelevancy of international law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Ok, OBL dead but the revenge against the west, mostly the USA is alive and kicking and now more people are going to die. We kill them and they kill us why??? Why did all this start in the first place? Didn't OBL say he just wanted the US to get out of the Middle-East and quit killing its people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Ok, OBL dead but the revenge against the west, mostly the USA is alive and kicking and now more people are going to die. We kill them and they kill us why??? Why did all this start in the first place? Didn't OBL say he just wanted the US to get out of the Middle-East and quit killing its people? Nope. You're completely wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 You asked who's crying about it. I told you. What's the problem? That's fine. The way they were talking about it sounded like it was more than one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 That's fine. The way they were talking about it sounded like it was more than one person. Well, now it's also Noam Chomsky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Who or what did they cross reference the DNA with? Yah the old jerk who played to long at being an adventuring pirate..would have done the world a favour by his continued breathing - in chains - and humiliated...BUT the great Saudi princes really did not want the embarrassment and being friends of our oil eite - they agreed for sure that death would be less a burden on their overly proud heads - It's always about the money...as for Bin Laden - he was a hobbyist...a spoiled old rich kid who was JUST having some fun - JUST like our spoiled brats that plunder and war all over the god damned place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 The exact moment when we knew “international law” had little to say about the war against terrorism came on November 3, 2002. That was the day an American Predator drone, flying high above the Yemeni outback 100 miles east of Sanaa, fired a Hellfire missile into a car containing al-Qaeda’s local commander, Abu Ali al-Harithi, and five jihadi comrades. Photos of the scene show a black hole in the ground where the car once stood — a suitable metaphor for the once-fashionable notion that “international law” trumps a nation’s right to defend itself. Bin laden's killing shows us the irrelevancy of international law Smaller and weaker nations especially those that are cash poor and resourse rich - really can not defend themselves. It would be good if the Islamo Facists were actually do - gooders...and protectors of the weak and vulnerable - but seemingly they are not. It's about ideology. Or is it? Maybe they are just like the west and simply want power and riches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Jack Layton found with a hooker on K Street? lets talk about that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 While I am somewhat satisfied with OBL's death, I think it is legitimate to decry his assassination as going against certain western values. Torture and/or assassination may be convenient, but to justify them as they have been justified goes against a long list of values that even American Republicans used to espouse (or, at least, I think they may have at one time?).If OBL accepted or lived by Western values we wouldn't be having this discussion. He wouldn't play by our rules. With regard to him, what's wrong with playing by his rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 With regard to him, what's wrong with playing by his rules? Aren't we supposed to be better than him? Are we really willing to put our values aside so easily? Now, I'm not saying I'm a Bin Laden fan, but in most cases, we shouldn't be doing things the way that this was done. That said, I understand that this was a special case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 If OBL accepted or lived by Western values we wouldn't be having this discussion. He wouldn't play by our rules. With regard to him, what's wrong with playing by his rules? Because by playing by our rules we not only do what is just but we get to rub it in the Islamist fascists face that we are strong enough to do it right while doing it our way. Now we look as weak as any of them: vengeful, unjust, taking the simple/expedient way (politically at least) out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Because by playing by our rules we not only do what is just but we get to rub it in the Islamist fascists face that we are strong enough to do it right while doing it our way. "We" do? Would that include "strong" and "just" cruise missiles, laser guided bombs, GPS guided artillery, Hellfire missiles, cluster bombs, depleted uranium, nuclear weapons, firebombings, sanctions, blockades, mines, and defoliants? Ask Germany or Japan about how "we" played by the rules. Now we look as weak as any of them: vengeful, unjust, taking the simple/expedient way (politically at least) out.... Is this another argument against capital punishment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I'm still trying to figure out what the problem is with killing Bin Laden. He declared war on The United States back in the mid-90s. When did it become unacceptable to kill somebody that's part of an organization that's declared war on you? Seriously? That's a problem now? Would it have been a problem to assassinate Adolf Hitler? Would it have been a problem to assassinate the emperor of Japan? This is insanity. What the hell is wrong with some of you people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Somebody ca declare war on you and you're not allowed to kill them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 ... Would it have been a problem to assassinate Adolf Hitler? Would it have been a problem to assassinate the emperor of Japan? Yes...it has gotten to the silly point where it would be a human rights violation to assassinate them. This is insanity. What the hell is wrong with some of you people? Terrorists have rights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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