game of thrones

Mighty AC · June 9, 2014

Most boring episode in the series. Entire episode took place in 1 location (the wall) and overall very little occured in terms of the plot. At the beginning the night's watch have the wall and there is a 100,000 army outside, at the end it is exactly the same. Apart from mance getting captured and a few minor characters dying, not much happened. Blackwater Bay fight was much more interesting.

Edit: I think the episode would have been a bit better if they had a scene or two with Stannis halfway through. Isn't stannis planning to aid the wall? How is he getting there? Isn't he planning to buy mercenaries using the loan from the bank of braavos?

Mance Rayder is still free on the North side of the wall. That is who Jon is going to meet. Tormund Giantsbane was captured near the end.

It was a good action episode and sets up an important plot line for next season. Like Boges mentioned it was also a feel good episode for a change. Plus, it leaves a very big and happy event for the finale. I think people are going to dig it. I may go see it on the big screen.

Bitsy · June 9, 2014

I really enjoyed the quality time spent with Sam. Though rarely seen, Sam is a favorite of mine, especially his scenes with Jon.

Jon: “I’m not a bleeding poet,”

Sam: “No, you’re really not.”

Edited June 9, 2014 by Bitsy

Mighty AC · June 10, 2014

I really enjoyed the quality time spent with Sam. Though rarely seen, Sam is a favorite of mine, especially his scenes with Jon.

Jon: “I’m not a bleeding poet,”

Sam: “No, you’re really not.”

Haha...I loved that line. I like how his character has grown more confident and wise.

Bitsy · June 10, 2014

Haha...I loved that line. I like how his character has grown more confident and wise.

His growth was evidenced in this line.....

"And when you’re nothing at all, there’s no reason to be afraid.”

Boges · June 10, 2014

Sam told Ollie to kill Jon's Girlfriend.

Bonam · June 10, 2014

Ice climbing is hard enough when you don't have people trying to kill you from above. That job sucks!

Boges · June 10, 2014

How about being the first 2 giants and the first mammoth?

That group was the Dieppe of Mance Rayder's war against the Wall.

Bonam · June 10, 2014

What I don't get is when the giant lifted the gate, why a thousand dudes didn't rush in and why they didn't prop the thing open, rather than the giant walking inside and letting the gate drop behind him. What a noob giant!

Mighty AC · June 10, 2014

Ha ha. Wildling armies are like trying to herd cats or organize atheists though. They have the numbers but since they are a mishmash of warring tribes they don't agree on anything other than their hatred of Crows and their fear of the white walkers. Even though this season is ending and the brothers cheered their victory, there is still almost 100,000 wildlings on the North side of the wall and many saw the giant get passed the first gate. Don't worry though, like Rambo who managed to defeat the Vietnamese single handedly, Jon Snow is off to disband the entire force.

TimG · June 10, 2014

One of my pet peeve are authors who have no concept of the logistics involved making implausible claims about the size of armies in the field. In this case, the Wildling army is supposedly greater than 100,000 managing to survive in a tundra with pre-industrial technology and little trade with warmer climes. 100,000 is bigger than the entire population of Canada's north today. The invasion of Normandy in 1944 had about 150,000 men and was only possible because of logistical support from societies with close to 200 million people. The story would not have suffered if a more plausible 10,000 was used instead (even then this is large given the landscape that needs to support the army).

Edited June 10, 2014 by TimG

Boges · June 10, 2014

One of my pet peeve are authors who have no concept of the logistics involved making implausible claims about the size of armies in the field. In this case, the Wildling army is supposedly greater than 100,000 managing to survive in a tundra with pre-industrial technology and little trade with warmer climes. 100,000 is bigger than the entire population of Canada's north today. The invasion of Normandy in 1944 had about 150,000 men and was only possible because of logistical support from societies with close to 200 million people.

It's sort of like Dany's Army. It's 10,000 strong but you rarely get the sense of that on the show, not to mention how they feed the dragons and where do they stay?

Many are Canibals though. So food could be plentiful. Apparently there are parts of the area North of the Wall that isn't Tundra. Lots is forested land.

I think they could have gotten by plausibly with a 10,000 person army.

A bigger question is how much food a giant requires? It would require a lot of resources to keep them going.

The scale of such a battle would be too large to show on a TV show. Remember there are many castles along the wall and I'm sure they all have similar defences as shown at Castle Black.

So to Compare it to D-Day it would work by sending multiple divisions to attack different castles similar to the different beaches in Normandy.

But it's always impossible to show scale on a TV show with a budget. Even a show like Saving Private Ryan had to distill D-Day into attacking one pill box on Omaha Beach. In Band of Brothers they showed the Battle of the Bulge by focusing on one company trying to hold one part of the line surrounding Bastogne.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Boges

TimG · June 10, 2014

It's sort of like Dany's Army. It's 10,000 strong but you rarely get the sense of that on the show, not to mention how they feed the dragons and where do they stay?

10,000 is well within historical norms for the Romans, Mongols or other armies with the same level of tech.

i.e. it is large but it is at least plausible.

Edited June 10, 2014 by TimG

Boges · June 10, 2014

Nomadic armies? Or ones with a supply line? At least with Raydar's army there could be some sort of suppy line since they're coming from their homeland. Dany's Army was completely nomadic until they took Maureen.

TimG · June 10, 2014

Nomadic armies? Or ones with a supply line? At least with Raydar's army there could be some sort of suppy line since they're coming from their homeland. Dany's Army was completely nomadic until they took Maureen.

Well - the army was resident in Maureen until Dany took it over and immediately captured the city. So, in theory Maureen could supply it. My understanding is Mongol armies were nomadic.

Boges · June 10, 2014

Well - the army was resident in Maureen until Dany took it over and immediately captured the city. So, in theory Maureen could supply it. My understanding is Mongol armies were nomadic.

You mean Astapore? That would have been a smart strategy but we found out that both Astapore and Yunkai reverted back to slavery, meaning no occupying force was left there to supply the army. She sent Dario back to occupy the cities again and be an occupying force.

Dany has actually shown to be a pretty horrible leader in this season.

TimG · June 10, 2014

You mean Astapore? That would have been a smart strategy but we found out that both Astapore and Yunkai reverted back to slavery, meaning no occupying force was left there to supply the army. She sent Dario back to occupy the cities again and be an occupying force.

You have a point. The only way the army could have survived was to pillage the country side which was fine for the Mongols but kind of undermines Dany's 'protecting the little guy' schtick.

Boges · June 10, 2014

You have a point. The only way the army could have survived was to pillage the country side which was fine for the Mongols but kind of undermines Dany's 'protecting the little guy' schtick.

That's how the Dothraki roll.

She makes mention of livestock in the season opener. I'm sure they took provisions with them from Astapore to keep the army going, but there's no evidence they kept a supply line.

Mighty AC · June 10, 2014

Dany has actually shown to be a pretty horrible leader in this season.

Aye, she has. I believe it is deliberately written to show her growth into an experienced and wise leader. Her advisers encouraged her to move on to conquer Westeros, but Danny wants to be able to rule a city competently before ruling a kingdom. In the books they discuss the food and supply issues Danny has with her army; which, is part of the reason she is urged to move on to Westeros.

One of my pet peeve are authors who have no concept of the logistics involved making implausible claims about the size of armies in the field. In this case, the Wildling army is supposedly greater than 100,000 managing to survive in a tundra with pre-industrial technology and little trade with warmer climes.

In the North, 100,000 is the entire population. They are not actually grouped together as an army for the sake of fighting though. They are fleeing the North (winter is coming) and are more like refugees than soldiers. The North also has ports that trade with the free cities, though they haven't been mentioned in the TV series yet.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mighty AC

Bonam · June 10, 2014

Indeed, it's more a migration of a people than an army.

-1=e^ipi · June 11, 2014

One of my pet peeve are authors who have no concept of the logistics involved making implausible claims about the size of armies in the field. In this case, the Wildling army is supposedly greater than 100,000 managing to survive in a tundra with pre-industrial technology and little trade with warmer climes. 100,000 is bigger than the entire population of Canada's north today. The invasion of Normandy in 1944 had about 150,000 men and was only possible because of logistical support from societies with close to 200 million people. The story would not have suffered if a more plausible 10,000 was used instead (even then this is large given the landscape that needs to support the army).

I thought the 100,000 includes women, children and basically the entire wildling population north of the wall since they are fleeing the white walkers. If you consider 100,000 to be basically the entire population (or even half the population) it isn't unreasonable given the population figures of other parts of westeros. The 7 kingdoms appear to have armies of the size of about 20,000 each, indicating that they probably have populations on the order of hundreds of thousands. King's Landing has a population of half a million, etc. This would probably mean that Westeros has a population of a few million people.

Black Dog · June 11, 2014

You mean Astapore? That would have been a smart strategy but we found out that both Astapore and Yunkai reverted back to slavery, meaning no occupying force was left there to supply the army. She sent Dario back to occupy the cities again and be an occupying force.

Dany has actually shown to be a pretty horrible leader in this season.

How?

Boges · June 11, 2014

How?

- Leaving the two cities she conquered without an occupying force so they slide back into slavery. Had she been smart she would have installed some sort of puppet regime in each city before moving on.

- Unilaterally executing 163 people randomly without trial or trying to find out who was ACTUALLY responsible for leaving dead children on the mileposts leading to Maureen.

- Allowing her dragons to pillage the surrounding farmland. I know they're dragon but allowing them to kill livestock isn't a great way to win hearts and minds.

- Banishing her closest advisory without for a second trying to understand why he needed to do what he did. And that he clearly is completely devoted to her now.

- Bleeping where she eats by doing the nasty with Dario.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Boges

Black Dog · June 11, 2014

- Leaving the two cities she conquered without an occupying force so they slide back into slavery. Had she been smart she would have installed some sort of puppet regime in each city before moving on.

- Unilaterally executing 163 people randomly without trial or trying to find out who was ACTUALLY responsible for leaving dead children on the mileposts leading to Maureen.

- Allowing her dragons to pillage the surrounding farmland. I know they're dragon but allowing them to kill livestock isn't a great way to win hearts and minds.

- Banishing her closest advisory without for a second trying to understand why he needed to do what he did. And that he clearly is completely devoted to her now.

- Bleeping where she eats by doing the nasty with Dario.

You make some good points. But bear in mind, in the show she's supposed to be like 16 years old.

Boges · June 11, 2014

You make some good points. But bear in mind, in the show she's supposed to be like 16 years old.

Tommen seems to be doing a decent job, he's like 10.

I'm only talking about the show and that Dany ain't 16.

From what I've heard of people discussing how things happen in the book, the treatment of her is different.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Boges

overthere · June 11, 2014

Tommen seems to be doing a decent job, he's like 10.

I'm only talking about the show and that Dany ain't 16.

From what I've heard of people discussing how things happen in the book, the treatment of her is different.

Tommen isn't doing any kind of job, uncle Tywin is running the show entirely.

You'll recall that Dany was a virgin teen at the beginning of GOT. Her 'mentor' was her idiot brother, disposed of early. She's contending for ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, and unlike the other contenders has to learn on the job, no other way. She has protectors and followers, but no real advisers now. She did install puppet regimes in those cities, and her choices reverted back to what they knew..... She does not have the resources or the inclination to have armies of occupation. Her empire is not where she is now.

Killing livestock is no big deal, but when her babies start eating the sheperds....

It does not matter how repentant Jorah Mormont is now, he betrayed her for a long time. Normally, he'd be executed instantly for what he did. Is her mercy a sign of strength, or weakness?