Downsizing

[kimmy]

Back when "Friends" was on TV, people always wondered: how do those 20-somethings afford apartments near Central Park?

Piece of cake, as it turns out: Felicia Cohen lives just a block away from Central Park for just $700 a month!

The catch? Her apartment is just 90 square feet.

It actually looks pretty cozy. Everything she needs, unless she wants to bake something.

I wasn't sure which part of the forum this belonged in, but "Travel, Leisure, and Sports" is about as close to a "Lifestyle" section as we have.

I was wondering two things as I watched her video:

-is this the future?

-could I live this way?

Is this the future? Is this how people will cope with increasingly crowded cities, increasingly scarce space, increasing costs of energy? Is this the answer to how everybody can live closer to where they work? People talk about higher-density housing. People talk buying less, using less, needing less. This, to me, is an example of what that might look like. It actually doesn't look that bad.

Could I live this way? hmm.

I would have a hard time getting used to cooking in an apartment with no actual kitchen. Some of the money I saved on rent would probably be spent on eating out.

I wouldn't be able to exercise in such a cramped space. My punching bag and weights would have to go. Some of the money I'd save on rent would be spent on a gym membership.

Would there be space for me to have friends over? Unless we were jumping straight into bed, it would probably be a little cramped for watching a movie or something like that. Obviously, my 50" plasma isn't going to fit. Some of the money I saved on rent is probably going to be spent on nights out, the movies, and things like that.

Those were things I was thinking when I watched the video. What do you think? Is this the future? Could you live this way?

-k

[Bonam]

Hmm well I lived for a year in a 170 square foot studio when I was in Montreal, which is less than double that size. It wasn't bad at all. It could definitely have been somewhat smaller without being an issue for me. I barely spent any time there besides sleeping and maybe reading/using my computer. Of course, it was already too small to have people over. I think you could fit the 50" TV in that place (in the video) actually. Maybe mounted on the wall up high opposite where the bed is, could watch it while lying in bed. Not having an oven and stove would be the biggest inconvenience for me and would definitely increase my eating out expenses.

If you want to live in a place together with another person and possibly a family though, it really needs to get a lot bigger to allow people to spread out a bit and have some personal space some of the time.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Bonam

[eyeball]

It reminds me of living on a boat.

I live in big house in the boonies on a couple of acres but when I'm out fishing I'm living in quarters often smaller than Felicia Cohen's. I've stayed in Vancouver and Victoria a number of times on boats over the years, sometimes working on gear or the boat, taking a course or just visiting. It's sure bloody handy for cheap accommodation in an expensive place to live to just drop the hook and row ashore.

If you had to work in Manhattan but could flee to your retreat out in the country this would be a fairly sweet way to do it.

[RB]

The space looks like desperate times. In that case we have to survive - the call is desperate measures. One good thing, we might all shape up and become right size to match our space - effect: less burden on the health care system.

personally I couldn't live in this small space if there are options.

[WIP]

90 sq. feet! It looks more like 90 cubic feet!

[Sir Bandelot]

The future is to shrink human beings down to a smaller size, so they can put twice as many in the same building site. They say it's alright

[August1991]

I was wondering two things as I watched her video:

-is this the future?

-could I live this way?

In the Soviet Union, the official policy was to provide 9 sq m to each citizen. They never achieved that and the average was about 6 sq m instead. (1 sq m = 10 sq ft.)

Note that the Soviets used a term called "living space" which excluded corridors so roughly speaking, the average Soviet citizen lived roughly in an area similar to the video. Often though people lived in communal apartments meaning that they shared certain facilities. That would be akin to your idea of eating out or going to the gym.

Russia is a big country with lots of space so there is no doubt in my mind that a central planning system explains this housing space shortage. Such systems can function for a long time before anyone bothers to change them. (Our current health system and education system suffer from similar problems and the bureaucrats offer similar solutions.)

The average European household is about 980 sq ft which is about half the US average and even smaller than the average of teh 25% of poorest of American households who have about 1220 sq ft.

On a vaguely related point, I found this quote interesting:

The Ontario worker, in other words, worked five weeks less than the Texas worker; the Quebec workers, six weeks less. Ontarios reasons: More people work part-time than in the United States; more people have shorter workweeks (35 hours or 37 hours rather than 40); and more people have longer vacations (63 hours more). Add it up and, compared with the Americans, Ontario workers get an extra 17 days off a year.

Ontario and Quebec arent the only places where the work ethic has slipped.

The most remarkable declines in the past 30 years took place in Japan and France. For Japan, the average worker went from 2,250 hours a year in 1976 to 1,800 hours 11 weeks less. For France, the average workers went from 1,900 hours in 1976 to 1,550 hours. People often excuse Frances erosion on the basis that the French have a cultural preference for leisure time and are content to pay the price for it in lower wages. Time on the Job begs to differ. It cites research that Americans have gained much more leisure time than the French, without sacrificing wages.

European women, for example, spend 10 hours more per week on cooking, cleaning and child care than American women. Thats 520 hours a year equivalent to 13 weeks off work. More than half of U.S. households have dishwashers compared with only 32 per cent of French households. More than 85 per cent of American households have microwave ovens versus only 19 per cent of French households. More than 80 per cent of American households have clothes dryers versus 12 per cent of French households. And more American families have the incomes to hire domestic help.

G&M

Are tiny apartments the future? I doubt it.

The future is a society of older people, set in their ways, who don't like those new-fangled microwave ovens and take more time off work because they don't feel well.

Edited April 9, 2011 by August1991

[GostHacked]

That's way to small for me. Once all my music gear is in place, there would be no room for anything else.... and no way I am downsizing that!!

[Bonam]

In the Soviet Union, the official policy was to provide 9 sq m to each citizen. They never achieved that and the average was about 6 sq m instead. (1 sq m = 10 sq ft.)

Note that the Soviets used a term called "living space" which excluded corridors so roughly speaking, the average Soviet citizen lived roughly in an area similar to the video. Often though people lived in communal apartments meaning that they shared certain facilities. That would be akin to your idea of eating out or going to the gym.

Russia is a big country with lots of space so there is no doubt in my mind that a central planning system explains this housing space shortage. Such systems can function for a long time before anyone bothers to change them. (Our current health system and education system suffer from similar problems and the bureaucrats offer similar solutions.)

In the late 40s / early 50s in Russia, my grandmother, her brother and sister, the brother's wife and the sister's husband, and my grandmother's mother and father (that's 7 people) lived in a single room. My gramma doesn't remember how many square meters it was but it sounds like it was about 15-20 from her description of it. There was 1 bed and a few chairs (no couch: there was a 14 month waiting list to be able to buy a couch), and then some space on the floor, and one person slept on the table they had and one person under it. And there was no bathroom or kitchen in the unit, those facilities (a single bathroom and kitchen) were shared with 10 other units on the floor which were comparably stuffed.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Bonam

[kimmy]

Are tiny apartments the future? I doubt it.

The future is a society of older people, set in their ways, who don't like those new-fangled microwave ovens and take more time off work because they don't feel well.

That's fine for those who are already old and set in their ways; they were able to purchase their homes when it was more financially feasible.

Big houses are probably still within reach for the well-off, and possibly Double Income No Kids couples. For those of us who are single, have just one income, and don't need a lot of space for our non-existent children and non-existent spouses, this might sort of thing might work out ok. Not everybody can live in the middle of town, or close to where they work. It's generally a trade-off between cost of living and commuting time.

-k

[Scotty]

That's fine for those who are already old and set in their ways; they were able to purchase their homes when it was more financially feasible.

-k

It's very bloody feasible in the US. While house prices compared to family incomes are setting records in Canada, they're plunging in the US. In Canada, the average house price is between 4.1-4.5 years of family income. It was at 2 years in the US and has now fallen to, I believe, 18 months and is set to fall further as the housing crisis deepens this year.

10 US Housing Market At Risk of Major Collapse

Right now, you can buy a bare bones townhouse in Fort Lauderdale for $50,000-60,000. You can buy a four bedroom house with two car garage in LA for $100,000. A condo in a luxury tower across the street from the beach in Miami for $130k. That's today, but if you read that story, there are currently 65,000 foreclosed houses in Miami being held by the banks because they're afraid to put them on the market for fear prices will collapse. There are another 25,000 mortgages in Miami which are 90+ days late in payment.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Scotty

[Moonlight Graham]

I once lived in a Crackjack box for 2 years. It wasn't so bad. Came with a fun prize too.

[Guest American Woman]

Right now, you can buy a bare bones townhouse in Fort Lauderdale for $50,000-60,000. You can buy a four bedroom house with two car garage in LA for $100,000. A condo in a luxury tower across the street from the beach in Miami for $130k. That's today, but if you read that story, there are currently 65,000 foreclosed houses in Miami being held by the banks because they're afraid to put them on the market for fear prices will collapse. There are another 25,000 mortgages in Miami which are 90+ days late in payment.

You might want to check out the details on those houses as you check out the properties -- in person. Don't always believe what you see. Generally if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

Having said that, houses in the U.S. have generally always been within reason; ie: they've been attainable. I know plenty of young people who are home owners too, and that includes single men and women. Always have. Still do. I'm not saying that applies everywhere, but owning a home is still as attainable as it always was, and will remain so even after the "housing crisis" has passed.

[bush_cheney2004]

You might want to check out the details on those houses as you check out the properties -- in person. Don't always believe what you see. Generally if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

He he...let them buy such houses unseen.

Having said that, houses in the U.S. have generally always been within reason; ie: they've been attainable. I know plenty of young people who are home owners too, and that includes single men and women. Always have. Still do. I'm not saying that applies everywhere, but owning a home is still as attainable as it always was, and will remain so even after the "housing crisis" has passed.

Agreed...I was able to purchase my first home with a VA loan ($1 down payment) and 13% interest rate on the mortgage!

Still, home ownership is not for everybody, and renting will always be an important part of the housing mix.

[kimmy]

I once lived in a Crackjack box for 2 years. It wasn't so bad. Came with a fun prize too.

It's very bloody feasible in the US. While house prices compared to family incomes are setting records in Canada, they're plunging in the US. In Canada, the average house price is between 4.1-4.5 years of family income. It was at 2 years in the US and has now fallen to, I believe, 18 months and is set to fall further as the housing crisis deepens this year.

10 US Housing Market At Risk of Major Collapse

Right now, you can buy a bare bones townhouse in Fort Lauderdale for $50,000-60,000. You can buy a four bedroom house with two car garage in LA for $100,000. A condo in a luxury tower across the street from the beach in Miami for $130k. That's today, but if you read that story, there are currently 65,000 foreclosed houses in Miami being held by the banks because they're afraid to put them on the market for fear prices will collapse. There are another 25,000 mortgages in Miami which are 90+ days late in payment.

I found that homes in Windsor were dirt cheap when I visited a couple of years ago. Of course, jobs were a little scarce. Ditto small prairie towns or sawmill towns in BC after the sawmill shuts down. There are affordable homes in Canada... but most people need to live where there is work.

I can't convince myself that these prices are "real". It seems like a perpetual motion machine invented by banks and realtors. I suspect that the new tougher mortgage rules might start to take some of the steam out of it.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

He he...let them buy such houses unseen.

Agreed...I was able to purchase my first home with a VA loan ($1 down payment) and 13% interest rate on the mortgage!

Still, home ownership is not for everybody, and renting will always be an important part of the housing mix.

I do realize that home ownership isn't for everyone, and I can understand why. My responses were more or less in response to the idea that homes are dirt cheap in the U.S. because of the housing crisis as well as the idea that young people these days don't have the same opportunity to own that people did in the past. I'm in my third house now, so I've bought through the years, and really don't see how much has ultimately changed.

[Wilber]

I have an old car with 20% more square footage than that.

[bloodyminded]

I have an old car with 20% more square footage than that.

I used to own a Ford LTD. Remember them? We used to pitch a tent inside, light a campfire, and invite the whole neighbourhood.

[Bonam]

I do realize that home ownership isn't for everyone, and I can understand why. My responses were more or less in response to the idea that homes are dirt cheap in the U.S. because of the housing crisis as well as the idea that young people these days don't have the same opportunity to own that people did in the past.

This perception depends a lot on location more than anything else. It's certainly true in Vancouver, where an average detached home in a decent neighborhood in the city costs millions.

[Guest American Woman]

This perception depends a lot on location more than anything else. It's certainly true in Vancouver, where an average detached home in a decent neighborhood in the city costs millions.

Not necessarily more than anything else when comparing markets and ability to own through the years. Certainly the price of homes is dependent on location, there's no denying that, but the rise in prices has remained consistent with the cost of other things, which was my point. I should have added that I have friends and family living throughout the States, some in cities, some in small towns, and wasn't just speaking from my own situation.

[kimmy]

Certainly the price of homes is dependent on location, there's no denying that, but the rise in prices has remained consistent with the cost of other things, which was my point.

That's just not true in Canada. The cost of homes has risen dramatically relative to income.

That's easily verified if you spend a few minutes with Google. You'll find plenty of graphs like the one I linked to earlier in the thread, or this one:

http://vreaa.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/income-vs-house-price-changes-1996-2009/

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

....I do realize that home ownership isn't for everyone, and I can understand why. My responses were more or less in response to the idea that homes are dirt cheap in the U.S. because of the housing crisis as well as the idea that young people these days don't have the same opportunity to own that people did in the past. I'm in my third house now, so I've bought through the years, and really don't see how much has ultimately changed.

Right....we understand that intrinsically, but anyone watching through media reports (in, say... Canada) might be mislead to believe that anything has fundamentally changed when it comes to the ups and downs of real estate in the US. The false value and inflated prices were abnormal, not the underlying mechanisms for qualified buyers and solid mortgage products, with rates still at historical lows.

[Bonam]

Right....we understand that intrinsically, but anyone watching through media reports (in, say... Canada) might be mislead to believe that anything has fundamentally changed when it comes to the ups and downs of real estate in the US. The false value and inflated prices were abnormal, not the underlying mechanisms for qualified buyers and solid mortgage products, with rates still at historical lows.

The US housing market had a much needed correction. Canada's still hasn't, or at least not the market that I've seen with my own eyes over the past decade: Vancouver. There, the bubble remains completely unperturbed and rapidly inflating. My parents undistinguished townhouse in east Vancouver has risen in value almost four times since they bought it ~15 years ago, to almost a million dollars today. That's despite it being on leasehold land with the clock ticking until the government gets to take all the land and everything on it back. You can buy a comparable townhouse on freehold land in Seattle for about 1/3 of the price.

All of my friends from university are now working professionals, some making six figures, some married to partners that are also professionals. Not a single one of them has seriously contemplated buying a house in Vancouver, it is completely out of reach.

[GostHacked]

The US housing market had a much needed correction. Canada's still hasn't, or at least not the market that I've seen with my own eyes over the past decade: Vancouver. There, the bubble remains completely unperturbed and rapidly inflating. My parents undistinguished townhouse in east Vancouver has risen in value almost four times since they bought it ~15 years ago, to almost a million dollars today. That's despite it being on leasehold land with the clock ticking until the government gets to take all the land and everything on it back. You can buy a comparable townhouse on freehold land in Seattle for about 1/3 of the price.

All of my friends from university are now working professionals, some making six figures, some married to partners that are also professionals. Not a single one of them has seriously contemplated buying a house in Vancouver, it is completely out of reach.

I had the chance to move to Vancouver for work (same job same company other end of the country) and after I factored in the cost of living, healthcare, food ect .. the decision was easily made. I said no. Rent was high as well, and with some quick searching for homes on the market, that dashed my hopes of ever owning a house there. I really like Vancouver, but damn it's very expensive. My salary was not going to increase enough to say those costs would be worth it.

Now I am looking at a place just outside of Ottawa. I'd love to own a small house on a good chunck of land, a few acres n such. It's not cheap, either way, it's just what your priorities are when you spend money on a house.

[The_Squid]

My bathroom is 60 sq ft. She could double her living space if she would forgo showers and poo through a hole in the floor... Imagine the efficient use of space!! Does she have any friends? My guess is that she spends a lot of time at THEIR place.

She has no kitchen. So she nukes cans of Campbells soup and eats a lot of cereal?

It isn't for me. I think having some space is a part of a healthy lifestyle.... Cramming yourself into a shoe-box sized apartment in a city isn't healthy.