Ripoff oil prices

[scouterjim]

As of this morning, gas in my area is $131.9. The oil companies are claiming "it is the crisis in Libya that are causing high prices." Interesting. Canada imports NO oil from Libya. This is just the oil barons ripping off the regular people again. The collusion between the various oil companies should be squashed by the anti-monopoly laws, but they won't be. The government is making too much money off them.

Edited April 8, 2011 by scouterjim

[Moonbox]

Oil is a worldwide commodity. What happens in Africa or Europe or wherever affects everyone. Even so, the prices definetly seem to go up pretty fast when something drives them up, and they're way stickier on the way down when prices are being pushed down.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied Opening Post

[GostHacked]

Using it as an excuse to raise oil prices. Never let a good crisis go to waste. You think this is bad? Wait till the oil goes up to $200 a barrel. Possibly $300 a barrel within a couple years.

[dre]

Oil is a worldwide commodity. What happens in Africa or Europe or wherever affects everyone. Even so, the prices definetly seem to go up pretty fast when something drives them up, and they're way stickier on the way down when prices are being pushed down.

Its because of how the market is designed to allow speculators to get rich creating bubbles.

When this kind of unrest happens speculators assume the prices will go up, so they start buying futures which makes the prices go up Its a self fulfilling prophecy. So while some of these global events DO have a very real effect on supply and demand, a lot of them are just clarion calls to speculators to get bullish on futures.

[maple_leafs182]

It is because oil is traded with US dollars and the US dollar is being devalued.

Blaming Libya is a way to take the blame off of the Fed.

[WIP]

As of this morning, gas in my area is $131.9. The oil companies are claiming "it is the crisis in Libya that are causing high prices." Interesting. Canada imports NO oil from Libya. This is just the oil barons ripping off the regular people again. The collusion between the various oil companies should be squashed by the anti-monopoly laws, but they won't be. The government is making too much money off them.

Oil is not overpriced! Along with coal, it is negligently underpriced, since virtually all of the environmental costs involved with obtaining, refining, and using oil byproducts as fuel have been externalized as collective costs for everyone to pay. I have mentioned on another thread the unfairness of this, since many of the places in the world that have been the most negatively affected by the cheap petro age, have contributed the least to the increase in greenhouse gas levels over the last 150 years.

If the tax burden had been properly applied to make carbon-based energy sources pay for their environmental damage, we would have invented and developed clean, alternative energy sources decades ago!

[GostHacked]

Oil is not overpriced! Along with coal, it is negligently underpriced, since virtually all of the environmental costs involved with obtaining, refining, and using oil byproducts as fuel have been externalized as collective costs for everyone to pay. I have mentioned on another thread the unfairness of this, since many of the places in the world that have been the most negatively affected by the cheap petro age, have contributed the least to the increase in greenhouse gas levels over the last 150 years.

If the tax burden had been properly applied to make carbon-based energy sources pay for their environmental damage, we would have invented and developed clean, alternative energy sources decades ago!

So why are alternative green energies so over priced? And I seriously doubt that the price is being raised to combat the environmental damage of extracting, processing and delivery of oil. Are we all paying for the Deepwater Horizon? The Exxon Valdeze? Or any other amount of damage that is taking place? No this is simply a money grab by those who control the flow of oil and the currency in which it is traded.

[WIP]

So why are alternative green energies so over priced? And I seriously doubt that the price is being raised to combat the environmental damage of extracting, processing and delivery of oil. Are we all paying for the Deepwater Horizon? The Exxon Valdeze? Or any other amount of damage that is taking place? No this is simply a money grab by those who control the flow of oil and the currency in which it is traded.

Oil, gas and coal are subsidized by our tax dollars, and some industries like nuclear power, are completely funded out of the public trough, yet for some reason there is outrage if we start talking about taxing dirty energy sources and subsidizing the clean ones instead. It's not rocket-science to figure out that there is huge money to be made in oil (7 of the 10 world's largest corporations are oil companies), and they want to keep their good times going.

[dre]

It is because oil is traded with US dollars and the US dollar is being devalued.

Blaming Libya is a way to take the blame off of the Fed.

Devaluation of the dollar during this spike doesnt come anywhere near close to accounting for the ammount the price has gone up during that period.

The price has gone up for the exact reason I stated... Speculators, refineries, etc just ASSUME the price will go up because of unrest in the middle east so they bid up the futures market trying to lock up the right to purchase oil in the future for somewhere around todays spot price.

[maple_leafs182]

Devaluation of the dollar during this spike doesnt come anywhere near close to accounting for the ammount the price has gone up during that period.

The price has gone up for the exact reason I stated... Speculators, refineries, etc just ASSUME the price will go up because of unrest in the middle east so they bid up the futures market trying to lock up the right to purchase oil in the future for somewhere around todays spot price.

That may be part of it but I can guarantee the price will go up, not assume, based on US monetary policy.

Has anyone on this forum bought silver? I keep telling you guys too, I first said this at 16.50 an ounce, it is almost 41 dollars an ounce, it will continue to go up.

[William Ashley]

Oil is global, people who bought from Libya need to buy from other places now, if capacity doesn't go up more, and demand stays the same the loss creates an increase potential for futures.

Fact is that it is futures contracts not current events that effects gas prices, that and lack of stockpiles.

It is nearly 140.0 up in Northern Ontario where my car is. So I can appreciate what you are saying.

This is why I support a Strategic Reserve to buy and stockpile oil while prices are low, and microrefineries distributed throughout Canada to keep local prices protected from major refineries.

you don't even need oil for gasoline.. you can make artificial gas with biofuels, such as long grasses, and sewage.

For example B20 biodiesel and E85

Edited April 9, 2011 by William Ashley

[Wilber]

Using it as an excuse to raise oil prices. Never let a good crisis go to waste. You think this is bad? Wait till the oil goes up to $200 a barrel. Possibly $300 a barrel within a couple years.

If that happens, the economy will fall flat on its ass, demand will drop and so will prices. Just like it did the last time it went to $150.

[GostHacked]

That may be part of it but I can guarantee the price will go up, not assume, based on US monetary policy.

Has anyone on this forum bought silver? I keep telling you guys too, I first said this at 16.50 an ounce, it is almost 41 dollars an ounce, it will continue to go up.

The hyperinflation on gold and silver will eventually crash. Personally I see no reason to buy gold or silver, unless it becomes currency again. Because when the dollar crashes, then the value of gold and silver will crash with it, negating any progress made with the inflationary prices.

[GostHacked]

If that happens, the economy will fall flat on its ass, demand will drop and so will prices. Just like it did the last time it went to $150.

Demand will never drop. Because we as a whole don't want to give up this type of lifestyle we live. The oil markets are heavily manipulated.

[August1991]

Its because of how the market is designed to allow speculators to get rich creating bubbles.

When this kind of unrest happens speculators assume the prices will go up, so they start buying futures which makes the prices go up Its a self fulfilling prophecy. So while some of these global events DO have a very real effect on supply and demand, a lot of them are just clarion calls to speculators to get bullish on futures.

Hey, dre if you've got this figured out so well, why are you wasting time posting here? You should become one of those speculators and get rich.

Then again, your scheme may make you rich when the price goes up but what happens when the price goes down?

Oil is not overpriced! Along with coal, it is negligently underpriced, since virtually all of the environmental costs involved with obtaining, refining, and using oil byproducts as fuel have been externalized as collective costs for everyone to pay. I have mentioned on another thread the unfairness of this, since many of the places in the world that have been the most negatively affected by the cheap petro age, have contributed the least to the increase in greenhouse gas levels over the last 150 years.

If the tax burden had been properly applied to make carbon-based energy sources pay for their environmental damage, we would have invented and developed clean, alternative energy sources decades ago!

There are federal, provincial (and in some cases, municipal) excise taxes on gasoline in Canada. These taxes amount to a carbon/pollution tax and in effect internalize the externalize the costs you mention.

The biggest externality in transportation in Canada is in congestion costs. Drivers don't pay directly for road use.

[WIP]

There are federal, provincial (and in some cases, municipal) excise taxes on gasoline in Canada. These taxes amount to a carbon/pollution tax and in effect internalize the externalize the costs you mention.

Yes, but the next question is: have those taxes been high enough to pay the environmental costs of petroleum, or alter transportation choices?

The quick answer would be No, since gas taxes that people bitch about frequently, did not influence them to buy smaller vehicles, move closer to work, or use public transit. If we compare North America to Europe, we have a clear example of how decisions to keep gas prices high changed public buying decisions. Europe decided to keep the prices high after the oil crises of the 70's, largely because most European nations realized that they did not have the open spaces to build the kind of car culture, with more and more highways that North Americans expect here.

Today, most Western European nations have equivalent or higher standards of living than Canada or the U.S., even though they use half the amount of energy as the average Canadian or American. Public transit, including the development of high-speed rail (something we have never been able to get off the ground) has made owning a private car unnecessary for many. Over here, many people living in smaller towns and cities have no way to get to work without having their own vehicle.

The biggest externality in transportation in Canada is in congestion costs. Drivers don't pay directly for road use.

In my area, I can see the sprawl of new suburbs that have been built over the years, because highways made long commutes feasible. Some of the recent additions to the roads...such as the 403 extension, can be seen for how they benefit homebuilders, and people willing to drive 50 or 60 miles everyday to work, but the net effect was to turn the Toronto area into the kind of sprawling megalopolis's you find in the U.S.

And when a new highway is built, under the excuse that the present situation is over-congested, the new highway only provides temporary relief, as more and more people join the flight to the suburbs. My father used to say that when he was working on the building of the 401 section through Toronto, it was intended to travel around the city of Toronto....but that was the early 50's! Since then, the urban planners allowed the builders to fill in all of the green spaces around the 401, and keep expanding it with extra lanes and a system of feeder lanes, until they realized that the 401 would be destined to be congested again anyway.....again, it is up to a democratic society to decide how they want their city and province to develop in the future. If we want to get serious about reducing oil consumption, it has to be priced in at the pump so that the incentives move in the other direction.

[dre]

There are federal, provincial (and in some cases, municipal) excise taxes on gasoline in Canada. These taxes amount to a carbon/pollution tax and in effect internalize the externalize the costs you mention.

Fossil fuel costs are NOWHERE CLOSE to being internalized.

Oil companies would need to directly pay for ALL associated government action. Diplomacy and war to secure access, environmental cleanups, regulatory agencies, and a mountain of other things.

[maple_leafs182]

If that happens, the economy will fall flat on its ass, demand will drop and so will prices. Just like it did the last time it went to $150.

yes it will, we have hit peak growth since we hit peak oil.

The hyperinflation on gold and silver will eventually crash. Personally I see no reason to buy gold or silver, unless it becomes currency again. Because when the dollar crashes, then the value of gold and silver will crash with it, negating any progress made with the inflationary prices.

There is no hyperinflation in gold and silver, for hyperinflation to occur there would need to be a 50% increase in the price every month, we are nowhere near that. Also, if the dollar crashes, that would push gold and silver up when priced in dollars.

I'll prove you wrong, I'll continue to hold and buy more silver, the price will eventually hit triple digits. The nice thing about silver is not only is it a precious metal, it is also an industrial metal. So unlike gold which is usually just hoarded, silver is hoarded and consumed.

Don't get me wrong, eventually silver will fall, if the Fed raises the fed fund rate over 8%, I may start selling my silver.

[Moonlight Graham]

The big oil companies are well among the most profitable and highest revenue companies in the world. They are ripping us off and laughing all the way to the bank (the big banks are among the most profitable companies and are ripping us off too, BTW).

Obviously, they are charging an arm and a leg for their product, and consumers should have access to better prices. They love any excuse to raise the prices...again. But we have little power to do much about it seems.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[August1991]

The big oil companies are well among the most profitable and highest revenue companies in the world.

If you believe so, then buy their shares.

Today, most Western European nations have equivalent or higher standards of living than Canada or the U.S....

Really?

Most French households don't have microwave ovens, and they don't have clothes dryers. French women spend less time in paid employment than American women but their time in domestic chores means that they work longer hours. Domestic appliances and electricity are gender issues.

The average American household has twice the living space of the average European household.

WIP, how do you define "standard of living"?

Edited April 10, 2011 by August1991

[dre]

The big oil companies are well among the most profitable and highest revenue companies in the world. They are ripping us off and laughing all the way to the bank (the big banks are among the most profitable companies and are ripping us off, BTW).

Obviously, they are charging an arm and a leg for their product, and consumers should have access to better prices. They love any excuse to raise the prices...again. But we have little power to do much about it seems.

Commodities traders control the price of oil, not oil companies.

[dre]

If you believe so, then buy their shares.

Really?

Most French households don't have microwave ovens, and they don't have clothes dryers. French women spend less time in paid employment than American women but their time in domestic chores means that they work longer hours. Domestic appliances and electricity are gender issues.

The average American household has twice the living space of the average European household.

WIP, how do you define "standard of living"?

Most of the rankings systems consider all kinds of factors. Income, health, fitness, time spent in servitude, access to basic services, access to medicine , poverty, etc.

[charter.rights]

The price of gasoline is controlled by the oil companies and is not in pace with the price of oil on the market. We all know that there is some price fixing going on but governments are unwilling to tackle it.

I buy most of my gas at a reserve in southern Ontario, where the current price of gas is around $1.12 per litre. The neighbouring communities have gas at the pumps at $1.29. The explanation I get from the reserve gas station owners is they buy gas at one price and sell at that price with their mark-up until the tanks are empty. Funny things is they manage to always buy enough gas to last out these spikes in prices and so I suspect the next tanks will be as cheap as the ones are now....right after Easter....

[WIP]

If you believe so, then buy their shares.

Really?

Most French households don't have microwave ovens, and they don't have clothes dryers. French women spend less time in paid employment than American women but their time in domestic chores means that they work longer hours. Domestic appliances and electricity are gender issues.

The average American household has twice the living space of the average European household.

WIP, how do you define "standard of living"?

Apparently, you define quality of life strictly by consumerist measurements such as home size, or having the newest electronics crap....don't know if I can buy that one about the French not being able to afford microwave ovens....considering the food culture of France, that still motivates the French to avoid one-stop grocery shopping, in favour of making separate trips to grocers, bakeries, and butcher shops for their food....or maybe the French avoid the microwave for the same reason most of us avoid them for everything except reheating leftovers....because they make everything taste like crap!

When it comes to "bigger is better," I've mentioned before that I consider the consumerism that we've been bombarded with from business, media, politicians, and celebrities, to be a curse, rather than a blessing; and no clearer proof can be found that the increase in home size has nothing to do with utility than the fact that sq. footage has almost doubled over the last half century, even while the baby boom that justified larger homes, went bust! People today, work more hours to buy better stuff...or at least to maintain what they've already purchased on credit...and growth in production and consumption does not improve health, life expectancy, or responses to questions on personal wellbeing. So many people are trapped on the media-driven fools quest to get a bigger house, and the latest fashion and consumer fads, and never stop to ask if it will improve their lives, or the lives of the people around them.

[bloodyminded]

Apparently, you define quality of life strictly by consumerist measurements such as home size, or having the newest electronics crap....don't know if I can buy that one about the French not being able to afford microwave ovens....considering the food culture of France, that still motivates the French to avoid one-stop grocery shopping, in favour of making separate trips to grocers, bakeries, and butcher shops for their food....or maybe the French avoid the microwave for the same reason most of us avoid them for everything except reheating leftovers....because they make everything taste like crap!

It's another of August's frequently downright bizarre declarations.

Microwave ovens are not expensive. The idea that the French cannot afford them is absolutely ludicrous.

It's completely made up. It has no basis whatsoever in reality.

If the French make less use of microwave ovens, it's entirely a cultural matter, and has zero to do with finances.

Edited April 16, 2011 by bloodyminded