Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 If you can post within said rules, then maybe you shouldn't be posting here. It's too bad, because he did bring some good facts to this discussion before happily hopping into the gutter. I can see that Walker has rejected a compromise suggested by moderate Republicans. That compromise would have solidified the 'emergency' status of this initiative by reinstating rights in 2013. I doubt that the court cases will even be finished by then though: “There will absolutely be challenges by WEAC, AFSCME and other unions. There’s never been anything like this that happened in this state before. So, I don’t know that there’s any case law. I imagine the unions in Wisconsin will try to come up with a Wisconsin-specific legal challenge,” Aldana said. “I think they’ll challenge it on several fronts - equal protection, First Amendment and other types of legal challenges. The unions are going to be looking at every possible angle.” Legal Challenges coming Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure one can use the word join if it's involuntary. The term join is an indication of some type of choice. There is no choice. Ok. If they have the right to opt-out or join, then there is no point to a union at all. But these fights were finished by the mid-20th century - we know this. That seems to be the fundamental flaw of unions. I would propose that workers have a choice to join or not to join. But if a worker chooses not to join, then they would do so at the expense of the salary and benefits negotiated by the union. They'd have to agree to what most likely would be less pay, or less benefits. And they would do so. And the union would die. Again, we learned all this by about 1950. If things are really that bad, then it's time for negotiations, and failing that - a strike or lock out. Edited February 21, 2011 by Michael Hardner Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
GWiz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Walker gets a "Pants on Fire" (biggest LIE possible) rating on CNN's "truth meter" regarding his "not union busting" message... Edited February 21, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Having a sewer next door creates all sorts of problems here. You guys should know that given your southern border problems. We also have a northern border...with identical problems, just smaller in scale. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 We also have a northern border...with identical problems, just smaller in scale. Don't sewers run down not up? Ergo our problem DOWN south of us... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Yukon Jack Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 This, in playground terms, is known as taking your ball and going home. Needless to say, I don't accept your assessment of the result here. All right, I am now on my knees in front of my keyboard. I am begging your magnificent forgiveness. I am so sorry, I can't find the words to express my unworthiness next to you and pinko. Some of the most distinctive marks of a liberal is the lack of common sense, lack of sense of humour and extremely thin skin. You and pinko qualify. Nay, you two share first prize. Quote
Yukon Jack Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 A couple of posters here are too dumb to know any better and refer to me as "Union Jack". I mean, how stupid and illiterate can you get? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 A couple of posters here are too dumb to know any better and refer to me as "Union Jack". I mean, how stupid and illiterate can you get? I was wondering the same thing....must be just a slip to the term for a former flag/pennant. Yukon Jack is a very fine Canadian whiskey! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 All right, I am now on my knees in front of my keyboard. I am begging your magnificent forgiveness. I am so sorry, I can't find the words to express my unworthiness next to you and pinko. Some of the most distinctive marks of a liberal is the lack of common sense, lack of sense of humour and extremely thin skin. Thin skin how ? I don't think you've insulted me. I'm just here for a good argument, not for someone to declare "my arguments are unassailable" and "I win". Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Jack Weber Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) You may be able to prove that you were born in Canada, but being a Canadian would be harder to prove for your ilk. Unless it is being anti-American and Muslim-lover, and of course being a unionist. All of which you are. I'm a proud union man... The rest of your assertion is something I'm sure a clearly superior human being,such as yourself,can prove to everyone with actual evidence... Correct? So,could you please elucidate for everyone that I'm: (a) Anti-American (b ) A "Muslim lover" And please...Be specific... Thanks! Edited February 21, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Bitsy Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) This is a point that I have not heard mentioned, but possibly I missed in all of these pages of back and forths breaking little new ground. The quality of Wisconsins K-12 educations is highly rated; if we blame the teachers for our schools failures we should also reward them for their successes. Gov. Walkers desired goal is to break the teachers union by taking away their right of collective bargaining. There are five states that do not allow collective bargaining and their ranking on SAT scores is as follows; the second number is their high school graduation rate. South Carolina, 49th 66% Georgia, 48th 56% Texas, 45th 65% North Carolina, 38th 63% Virginia, 34th 69th Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, ranks 3rd in nation in SAT scores and graduates 82% of its students. http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/2010-sat-scores-by-state http://www.all4ed.org/publication_material/understanding_HSgradrates Edited February 21, 2011 by Bitsy Quote
pinko Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 This is a point that I have not heard mentioned, but possibly I missed in all of these pages of back and forths breaking little new ground. The quality of Wisconsin’s K-12 educations is highly rated; if we blame the teachers for our school’s failures we should also reward them for their successes. Gov. Walker’s desired goal is to break the teacher’s union by taking away their right of collective bargaining. There are five states that do not allow collective bargaining and their ranking on SAT scores is as follows; the second number is their high school graduation rate. South Carolina, 49th 66% Georgia, 48th 56% Texas, 45th 65% North Carolina, 38th 63% Virginia, 34th 69th Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, ranks 3rd in nation in SAT scores and graduates 82% of its students. http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/2010-sat-scores-by-state http://www.all4ed.org/publication_material/understanding_HSgradrates Perhaps that is a good indicator that you get what you pay for. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Perhaps that is a good indicator that you get what you pay for. Maybe. It's likely better to look at it on the whole, i.e. these states don't seem to do well at education, nor do they fund it very well. But it's not the same thing... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
pinko Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Maybe. It's likely better to look at it on the whole, i.e. these states don't seem to do well at education, nor do they fund it very well. But it's not the same thing... By these states I take it you are referring to the 5 states cited in the article. What are the poverty levels in those states relative to those in the so called rust belt states? Quote
GWiz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 This is a point that I have not heard mentioned, but possibly I missed in all of these pages of back and forths breaking little new ground. The quality of Wisconsin’s K-12 educations is highly rated; if we blame the teachers for our school’s failures we should also reward them for their successes. Gov. Walker’s desired goal is to break the teacher’s union by taking away their right of collective bargaining. There are five states that do not allow collective bargaining and their ranking on SAT scores is as follows; the second number is their high school graduation rate. South Carolina, 49th 66% Georgia, 48th 56% Texas, 45th 65% North Carolina, 38th 63% Virginia, 34th 69th Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, ranks 3rd in nation in SAT scores and graduates 82% of its students. http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/2010-sat-scores-by-state http://www.all4ed.org/publication_material/understanding_HSgradrates Certainly one of the best posts on this thread... Congrats... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 By these states I take it you are referring to the 5 states cited in the article. What are the poverty levels in those states relative to those in the so called rust belt states? Another good question. How much do economies and social factors influence education ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
msj Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 No, I have not read all 48 pages of this thread. But just want to throw this out there: Governor Walker has in his bill a section that would allow the state to sell assets without bid and at whatever price the government deems to be in the best interests of the state. Nice way to run a government. 16.896 - Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (. Link Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Jack Weber Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 I see you see what I see... After delving into the facts,it seems this nothing but a Trojan Horse attempt at RTWing unionized employees and ruining there collective bargaining rights legislatively... RTW goes to the free marketeering ethos...And never buy the "freedom" angle,because that's a con canard... Unions are an impediment to the "free market" (they're supposed to be,by the way)...They drive the free marketeers crazy because their notions of individualism are thrown on their heads because of this... This is where the "freedom" canard comes into play...It's the only real way to get people to give up their collective rights in the workplace.But it's never about "freedom",it's about power and control in the workplace...The power to control your workforce through individualism,by playing one worker off against the other.And,the ability to control wages and benny plans (again through individualism)...See the free marketeering canards of "competativeness" and "productivity"... This is why specific contract language is critically important... It also irks these types that they actually have to deal with their so called "subordinates" as equals...I know this from experience in contract negotiations and grievance hearings... It's always about power and control,because these chest thumping cons are'nt really the tough guys they claim to be...They are really fearful power and control freaks with a false sense of superiority... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) After delving into the facts,it seems this nothing but a Trojan Horse attempt at RTWing unionized employees and ruining there collective bargaining rights legislatively... RTW goes to the free marketeering ethos...And never buy the "freedom" angle,because that's a con canard... Unions are an impediment to the "free market" (they're supposed to be,by the way)...They drive the free marketeers crazy because their notions of individualism are thrown on their heads because of this... This is where the "freedom" canard comes into play...It's the only real way to get people to give up their collective rights in the workplace.But it's never about "freedom",it's about power and control in the workplace...The power to control your workforce through individualism,by playing one worker off against the other.And,the ability to control wages and benny plans (again through individualism)...See the free marketeering canards of "competativeness" and "productivity"... This is why specific contract language is critically important... It also irks these types that they actually have to deal with their so called "subordinates" as equals...I know this from experience in contract negotiations and grievance hearings... It's always about power and control,because these chest thumping cons are'nt really the tough guys they claim to be...They are really fearful power and control freaks with a false sense of superiority... No need to repeat my last post I take it? You're "sharp" today... http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18035&view=findpost&p=629460 Edited February 21, 2011 by GWiz Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Mr.Canada Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 These people you refer to pay taxes and are active participants in the State of Wiscosin. Why should they give up hard earned benefits because of the reckless behaviour of government? Sure, they pay taxes that doesn't mean they should get whatever they demand because they choose to act like spoiled brats pulling a conniption fit. When times are hard everyone has to dig deep. More spending will not help the State pull out of the trouble it's in. The ymust stop living beyond their means. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Bitsy Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 I read something in this forum, I believe it was from Shady but not certain, speaking of the 6 figure income of the public union employees in Wisconsin. There was no link to support that figure but this indicates that the 6 figure income achieved by public sector employees pales when compared to private sector employees with the same level of education. For the record, the EPI is a pro labor group. http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/wisconsin_public_servants_already_face_a_compensation_penalty/ Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 No need to repeat my last post I take it? You're "sharp" today... http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18035&view=findpost&p=629460 Of course he's lying... No doubt the benefactors that paid for his candidacy want RTW in Wisconsin... Unfortunately,and as usual,these back room slithering weasels don't have the guts to actuallu confront people head on... Just like union busting RTW,they have to do it through the back door... This is how the NAM operates.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
pinko Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Sure, they pay taxes that doesn't mean they should get whatever they demand because they choose to act like spoiled brats pulling a conniption fit. When times are hard everyone has to dig deep. More spending will not help the State pull out of the trouble it's in. The ymust stop living beyond their means. You do realize that the business tax is to be reduced to the tune of many of millions of dollars while at the same time the working folks(middle class) are having their pay and benefits cut. How do you reconcile such conduct? Secondly the Governor did not campaign on the premise that he would be removing collective bargaining rights if elected. How many buisnesses do the Koch brothers own in Wisconsin and how much did their contribution to the Governor's campaign bear on the changes the Governor is attempting to ram through? Edited February 21, 2011 by pinko Quote
Shady Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 How many buisnesses do the Koch brothers own in Wisconsin and how much did their contribution to the Governor's campaign bear on the changes the Governor is attempting to ram through? Tinfoil hat alert! Anyways, looks like the University of Wisconsin is going to investigate the affiliated doctors that were giving out fake notes during the days of the protest. Statement Regarding UW Health PhysiciansThese UW Health physicians were acting on their own and without the knowledge or approval of UW Health. These charges are very serious and in response, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation, the UW Health entities that employ the physicians, have immediately launched an investigation of the reported behavior. Link Quote
GWiz Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 Tinfoil hat alert! Anyways, looks like the University of Wisconsin is going to investigate the affiliated doctors that were giving out fake notes during the days of the protest. Hmmmm, reported by whom and where I wonder... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
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