Esq Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) No criticism intended... Just my viewpoint... My view is that Newton's 3 Laws of motion apply very well to the political and social interactions between and within countries... Nothing done stays static in physics or politics... You are of course free to feel differently on that subject or any other... Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about the simplificaitons, I'm arguing that they're unavoidable. And that you willingly partake in them yourself. Edited February 3, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 pamphlets printed for the occasion...mubarak T shirts made for the occasion...co-ordinate meeting points and attacks... police and internal security in their midst...internal security services that haven't been seen in a week suddenly show up to confiscate media cameras and equipment...pro-mubarak demonstrators come armed to counter a unarmed protestors....really that's quite a lot of coincidences for a spontaneous demonstration...as well this has past history, armed gangs have been used before by the government to break up demonstrations, it allows the police and government to deny responsiblity... Those are a lot of simultaneous coincidences!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Again, I'm not disagreeing with you about the simplificaitons, I'm arguing that they're unavoidable. And that you willingly partake in them yourself. As I recall I agreed with your post... I thought it was good... Personally, I thought it'd be a more appropriate post during the Bush years than a couple of years into the Obama admin.... I have no particular animosity towards the United States or Americans nor do I have any particular vested interests in Egypt or Israel... History in unfolding... Analysing the why's and wherefores is a mugg's game at best... Can one look at history to better understand what's happening in Egypt, yes... Can on understand the feelings of Egyptians, yes... Can one understand the concerns of Israelis, yes... Simply put it's complicated... In my view my biggest concern right now is the Egyptian Military... They are the KEY... As they go so does Egypt and possibly a big chunk of the middle east, for better or worse and whether it's you, me, Harper or Obama we are simple relegated to watch... Between the 4 people I just mentioned pick the one that CAN make a difference, if not now, then when the situation resolves itself one way or another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Yes, but we don't normally allow equal weight to the supporters of a dictator (and every dictator has supporters) as we do the opponents of a dictator. Of course they're outraged: they believe a dictator has the right to rule inherently--by dint of having taken power--so it's upsetting to them that he should not be accorded more respect. Are you drawing some equivalence between the two factions? Whatever for? Why not? We had suggestions earlier that democracy was good, even if the people select Islamists to rule them. We can question their wisdom, even their sanity, but it's their choice. By the same token, perhaps other people prefer the stability of someone like Mubarak to the uncertainty and possibly chaotic violence of a sudden overthrow. As the link suggests, even some who want him gone feel that he has now given in and should be allowed to leave peacefully and with dignity. Are we to respect only the view of those who oppose him, even if they support Islamism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 pamphlets printed for the occasion...mubarak T shirts made for the occasion...co-ordinate meeting points and attacks... police and internal security in their midst...internal security services that haven't been seen in a week suddenly show up to confiscate media cameras and equipment...pro-mubarak demonstrators come armed to counter a unarmed protestors....really that's quite a lot of coincidences for a spontaneous demonstration... I didn't suggest the demonstration was spontaneous. I wouldn't doubt those whose bread is buttered by the current regime were behind its organization. But the majority of those who actually demonstrated to not appear to be people who were paid to do so, ie, a mass of brown shirts, as has been suggested. Most of the pro-Mubarak demonstrations were quite peaceful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Those are a lot of simultaneous coincidences!! Amen to that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I didn't suggest the demonstration was spontaneous. I wouldn't doubt those whose bread is buttered by the current regime were behind its organization. But the majority of those who actually demonstrated to not appear to be people who were paid to do so, ie, a mass of brown shirts, as has been suggested. Most of the pro-Mubarak demonstrations were quite peaceful. psst, don't tell anyone, 1000 prisoners escaped about the same time as thousands of police and security went missing, the Egyption "elite" are staying safe and celebrating the sudden arrival of well armed "PRO-Mubarak" supporters, and today the MEDIA is the target of those same PRO-Mubarak supporters... I don't know about you but there must be a BIG fish fry somewhere, because I can sure smell it... Mubarak Family assets in Egypt (and Swiss bank accounts) $40 BILLION... Mubarak's personal assets in Egypt (and Swiss Bank accounts) $17 BILLION... HELL, cut ME in on that kind of cash and I think I could be convinced to support Mubarak - I can be bought... My Swiss Bank account # is xxx xxxxx xxx xx xxxxxx... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Watching the news and seeing what is happening to that country, my question to anyone here is, could the same thing happen here in Canada or the US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 psst, don't tell anyone, 1000 prisoners escaped about the same time as thousands of police and security went missing, the Egyption "elite" are staying safe and celebrating the sudden arrival of well armed "PRO-Mubarak" supporters, and today the MEDIA is the target of those same PRO-Mubarak supporters.. I find it hard to believe the Egyptian elites would entrust their safety to a bunch of criminals. As I said, there might be some ringers in - probably are some ringers in with the crowd to encite, but the bulk of them don't appear to be criminals or secret police or paid demonstrators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Watching the news and seeing what is happening to that country, my question to anyone here is, could the same thing happen here in Canada or the US? I don't see how. We don't tend to get as emotional or impassioned about political issues, and we have a dedicated process to replacing the government in power in both nations which is widely respected and defended by all segments of society. There is NO movement I am aware of to change that, and no support for any drastic change. Democracy is bedrock over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Watching the news and seeing what is happening to that country, my question to anyone here is, could the same thing happen here in Canada or the US? Dang it! BC's gonna kill me on this if he sees it... Canada, NO... Not unless Canada's Constitution is changed and the Royal Assent provision is removed... The Queen and her successors, through the Govenor General are Canada's "head of state"... Just try touching Canada's "free" health care system and the Gov. of the day would be lynched.. HEY, what am I saying! The U.S., being a Republic, ONLY if an appathetic public allows an extreme "Tea Party Conservative" Government to take over all three levels (Prez., Congress, Supreme Court) of power and then allows their Corporate handlers free reign to suppress the "working class" and dismantles social "safety nets", supported by a strong media propaganda machine... A perceived common enemy, say Muslims, would drive a certain unity for a time for a goodly portion of the population.... While it may take some time, sooner or later, the population WILL rebel once they start going hungry etc... That's when something like we see in Egypt could happen in the U.S.... The Bush admin. tried, but all the pieces never quite fell into place together... I am very surprised at how short a memory Americans have and that after only two years those elements that Bush et al started are regaining power... Perhaps it is the left that will rebel first, being they are becoming more and more oppressed and hopeless already... All while watching the Bourguoisie become all powerful on the backs of their labors and being told it's all their fault... Hmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I find it hard to believe the Egyptian elites would entrust their safety to a bunch of criminals. As I said, there might be some ringers in - probably are some ringers in with the crowd to encite, but the bulk of them don't appear to be criminals or secret police or paid demonstrators. You're new to this thread... Scroll back through it, there's some "history" there that may change your mind... As I said, on CNN, they (the elites) were shown having a BBQ and cheering the arrival of those PRO-Mubarack thugs... They turned quite angry when the anti-Mubarak crowd fought back and didn't "run for their lives" as these people expected considering the violence and weapons the "PRO" forces attacked with... The Western media was WELCOME among the anti crowd, and now that same media is attacked and arrested by the "PRO" group and you still wonder? Hmmm... Sounds like early '30s reruns of --- never mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 If only there was a great leader in the middle east who would explain to the common rioting mob... You mean like Jesus? I'd pray for something more plausible like benevolent aliens from another planet. We've simply let too much go to rot and corruption for so long now that our options are diminishing as fast as problems are arising. Oh well, I guess we just keep driving this contraption we call human civilization till something vital breaks, the aliens arrive, Jesus comes back. Maybe Bonam's technological singularity will waft us up out our misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 ...I am very surprised at how short a memory Americans have and that after only two years those elements that Bush et al started are regaining power... Perhaps it is the left that will rebel first, being they are becoming more and more oppressed and hopeless already... All while watching the Bourguoisie become all powerful on the backs of their labors and being told it's all their fault... .....and I am surprised at your short memory....it already happened in the USA...we call it The Civil War (north) and War Between the States (south). I agree that Canadians are far too docile for that sort of thing, save for an occasional October Crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 As I recall I agreed with your post... I thought it was good... Personally, I thought it'd be a more appropriate post during the Bush years than a couple of years into the Obama admin... I don't see why. I was talking about US policy towards Israel, and how I beleive that the Israeli lobby is not the primary determiner. I don't know how such a thing distingushes meaningfully between the differing administrations; and peripherally, I was talking about the doctrinal beliefs of Western (not only American) benign intentions, exposed for what they are once people begin to defend Western-backed terrorism or subversion of democracy. . I have no particular animosity towards the United States or Americans Nor do I. That doesn't mean I need believe in fairy-tales about the inherent nobility of foreign policy, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Maybe Bonam's technological singularity will waft us up out our misery. Haha, well, glad someone was paying attention... But, isn't it already doing that? I don't notice a whole lot of misery around me. Mainly thanks to technological progress. Though no doubt some individuals are miserable here, mass misery mainly exists wherever technology has failed to advance... the third world, etc. Quality of life and technical progress are tightly bound together. By some measures, we are already entering the singularity phase of technological progress, though this will not culminate until the development of strong AI which is optimistically projected for ~2030 and pessimistically for ~2040. Think about it, the technological devices that you find in your daily life are changing on a yearly basis: the computers, communications devices, etc, are far faster and more capable with each year that passes. Just keeping up with all the new inventions and gadgets is a full time job, if you care to do it. And this is having a profound impact on our society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Haha, well, glad someone was paying attention... But, isn't it already doing that? I don't notice a whole lot of misery around me. Mainly thanks to technological progress. Though no doubt some individuals are miserable here, mass misery mainly exists wherever technology has failed to advance... the third world, etc. Quality of life and technical progress are tightly bound together. By some measures, we are already entering the singularity phase of technological progress, though this will not culminate until the development of strong AI which is optimistically projected for ~2030 and pessimistically for ~2040. Think about it, the technological devices that you find in your daily life are changing on a yearly basis: the computers, communications devices, etc, are far faster and more capable with each year that passes. Just keeping up with all the new inventions and gadgets is a full time job, if you care to do it. And this is having a profound impact on our society. The big problem I have with this singularity idea is similar to Fermi's Paradox. It stands to reason one should have happened somewhere on another planet and if so...where are the benevolent aliens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 You're new to this thread... Scroll back through it, there's some "history" there that may change your mind... As I said, on CNN, they (the elites) were shown having a BBQ and cheering the arrival of those PRO-Mubarack thugs... They turned quite angry when the anti-Mubarak crowd fought back and didn't "run for their lives" as these people expected considering the violence and weapons the "PRO" forces attacked with... The Western media was WELCOME among the anti crowd, and now that same media is attacked and arrested by the "PRO" group and you still wonder? Hmmm... Sounds like early '30s reruns of --- never mind... 80 years later and Fascist's simply do not change,do they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I didn't suggest the demonstration was spontaneous. I wouldn't doubt those whose bread is buttered by the current regime were behind its organization. But the majority of those who actually demonstrated to not appear to be people who were paid to do so, ie, a mass of brown shirts, as has been suggested. Most of the pro-Mubarak demonstrations were quite peaceful. What news coverage were you watching? Foxnews! Right from the time these pro-mubarak mobs entered the city square on camels and horseback, they have engaged in violence against the peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators. They have been caught on video throwing molotov cocktails and rocks from nearby buildings; they have beaten, in one case - stabbed, Egyptian and foreign reporters, and are now threatening to kill them if they don't get out. There are no reports of journalists being attacked by pro-democracy demonstrators, and even the crowd demographics betray the fact that the mubarak supporters are a typical fascist mob -- motivated by promises of money, jobs, or are members of the secret police, which has been proven from confiscated ID cards. They are also uniformly male and came in brandishing homemade weapons, while the pro-democracy demonstrators included a broad cross-section of the public, with large numbers of women, older people, and even children in the first few days. Making a claim that mubarak supporters have been peaceful is an outright lie to fit pre-existing ideological needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) What news coverage were you watching? Foxnews! Right from the time these pro-mubarak mobs entered the city square on camels and horseback, they have engaged in violence against the peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators. They have been caught on video throwing molotov cocktails and rocks from nearby buildings; they have beaten, in one case - stabbed, Egyptian and foreign reporters, and are now threatening to kill them if they don't get out. There are no reports of journalists being attacked by pro-democracy demonstrators, and even the crowd demographics betray the fact that the mubarak supporters are a typical fascist mob -- motivated by promises of money, jobs, or are members of the secret police, which has been proven from confiscated ID cards. They are also uniformly male and came in brandishing homemade weapons, while the pro-democracy demonstrators included a broad cross-section of the public, with large numbers of women, older people, and even children in the first few days. Making a claim that mubarak supporters have been peaceful is an outright lie to fit pre-existing ideological needs. I like how they described (not Fox but the Mubarak types" describing the horse and camel riders as,and I quote... "Disgruntled workers from the Cairo Zoo who were upset about the fact that the protests were hurting business." I'm not joking,I heared that yesterday... Right out of the Goebbels playbook,I suppose,in that if you tell an outrageous lie most people are apt to believe it... I also like how the Mubarak gov't is calling his thugs,"Pro-Stability"... Edited February 4, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Supposedly a march to Mubarak's palace is planned and jpunalists have noted alot of armoured personnel carriers... Many journalists have been attacked and beaten into silence... Very ominous and remeniscent of Tiannemen Square... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Good...because I sure miss the old CBC Forum. We both know that story, eh? Yet you are so quick to judge me....tsk...tsk. The fact is I've gloated about my role. This was a mistake. Pure and simple, I took offense at the word "Jew" being screened. I sent out an e-mail that made its way to the press. With Martin getting ready to drop the writ, the government didn't need another mess on its hands and the Board, no question, was far messier than it had been a few years earlier. I did not think my e-mail to the Canadian Jewish Congress would cause a shutdown. It did. Pure and simple I made a mistake, but who knows, maybe it would have happened anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 ....I did not think my e-mail to the Canadian Jewish Congress would cause a shutdown. It did. Pure and simple I made a mistake, but who knows, maybe it would have happened anyway. Perhaps, but nothing I do here will approach such import. Maybe, like you, I will only be contrite after the house burns down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Supposedly a march to Mubarak's palace is planned and jpunalists have noted alot of armoured personnel carriers... Many journalists have been attacked and beaten into silence... Very ominous and remeniscent of Tiannemen Square... I also read a story today about journalists being forced to only show pro-mobarak forces. Apparently the plan is to control whatever media they can, and hit the rest of them in the face with a bottle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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