eyeball Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 And the Americans most certainly did fight tyranny...in spades. What a steaming stack of crap that is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Do you think Israelis will ever come to see what a disaster it's been to have hitched their wagon to America's horse for so long? ....just like Canada? Sad to say but I really do think Mr. BC's comments really do capture and reflect the truly perverted nature of his country's world-view. Thank you...I try my best to do just that. You poor bastards are probably in for a very rough ride. If I was a Israeli I'd be getting out, as fast as I could. Fat chance...more people go to Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Do you think Israelis will ever come to see what a disaster it's been to have hitched their wagon to America's horse for so long? Sad to say but I really do think Mr. BC's comments really do capture and reflect the truly perverted nature of his country's world-view. It's not so much like Tourett's Syndrome as that phenomenon where people's real inner feelings are said to be apparent when high speed photographs capture their flashes of obvious disgust, fear or hatred. You poor bastards are probably in for a very rough ride. If I was a Israeli I'd be getting out, as fast as I could. Well, since you don't know anything about Israel, the Middle East, or America's connection to either... your concerns are nonsensical. Thanks anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) There's no question that the criticism of America as being responsible for this oppression is absurd. The typical rhetoric of "US-backed oppression" and "propped-up dictatorships" got old a long time ago. The same people would be shouting the same criticisms against America if it completely extricated itself from countries like Egypt. America must deal with the world as it is, not the world it wants. The explanation as to why the Middle East is a messed up and oppressive place is a complicated one, and certainly not as simple as people like eyeball would have us believe - "it's all America's fault!" To a point... The Mubarak regime was the 2nd largest recipient od US "aid" next to Israel..And please don't get all pissy about the semantics of aid,Bobby... That "aid" seems to go to quelling Islamofascists and propping up Mubarak's military,all the while,lining Mubarak's pockets and subjugating the mass of the Egyptian populous.I suppose that,ultimately,it's up the that Egyptian populous to stop that opression,however, there's no question about where the mass of the financing of that oppression came from.And not just Mubarak,but the Saddat and Nasser regimes. The problem really is that IF the Egyptian populous really got to vote for what it wanted,sadly,the most likely outcome is an Islamic theocracy.The US,and others,realize this....So that "aid" seems like money well spent,in a geopolitcal strategic sense... Edited January 30, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 There's no question that the criticism of America as being responsible for this oppression is absurd. The typical rhetoric of "US-backed oppression" and "propped-up dictatorships" got old a long time ago. The same people would be shouting the same criticisms against America if it completely extricated itself from countries like Egypt. America must deal with the world as it is, not the world it wants. The explanation as to why the Middle East is a messed up and oppressive place is a complicated one, and certainly not as simple as people like eyeball would have us believe - "it's all America's fault!" Ah but as BC is correct to point out we're with them, always have been. Notwithstanding Iraq of course - which was like a tear in the fabric of time and space in terms of the divisions it created in the Canadian political scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Americans certainly fought tyranny! I never suggested otherwise. What America has been blessed NOT to deal with, however, was an internal tyranny. There's a big difference. I agree with you - the Arabs need to take a look into the mirror and shake off their habit of always blaming America, Jews, and Israel. Then we are in agreement, as this was my main point with the original comment, which I stand by. Some members here don't want to deal with that level of frank discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 What a steaming stack of crap that is! Spot on... Let's play cards! http://friendlydictators.blogspot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Well, since you don't know anything about Israel, the Middle East, or America's connection to either... your concerns are nonsensical. Thanks anyways. True...but he knows fish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 To a point... The Mubarak regime was the 2nd largest recipient od US "aid" next to Israel..And please don't get all pissy about the semantics of aid,Bobby... That "aid" seems to go to quelling Islamofascists and propping up Mubarak's military,all the while,lining Mubarak's pockets and subjugating the mass of the Egyptian populous.I suppose that,ultimately,it's up the that Egyptian populous to stop that opression,however, there's no question about where the mass of the financing of that oppression came from.And not just Mubarak,but the Saddat and Nasser regimes. The problem really is that IF the Egyptian populous really got to vote for what it wanted,sadly,the most likely outcome is an Islamic theocracy.The US,and others,realize this....So that "aid" seems like money well spent,in a geopolitcal strategic sense... I'm well aware of that. It's a difficult position for the USA to be in. You seem to be overlooking the humanitarian side of American aid to Egypt. Every dollar of value (whether in cash or in goods/services) is a dollar made free for essentials. Without American aid, military or otherwise, Egyptian quality of life would go down. How much would it go down? Well, apparently American foreign aid to Egypt has been averaging about two billion dollars since 1979, all we need to do now is determine Egypt's average GDP during that time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Understood, but I will still maintain that the circumstances over the past 30 years is largely of their own making and inaction, internecine fighting, misdirected hatred toward Israel/America, etc., etc. America already stuck its neck out for Egypt before. While other nations with far greater challenges have progressed, Egypt stagnated with Nasser disease. It is PATHETIC. Like, massive military aid to an oppressive anti democratic regime had nothing to do with people being able to control their fate in their own country? Those jets flying over the people who braved prosecution have nothing to do with despotic regime hanging on to power? I'd agree with El Baradej that credibility of US verbal jockejing is draining fast...by each hour every undemocratic, despotic regime in the world is hanging to power by force of american arms to cermons of peace and democracy. And finally: it appears that nearly every subject US hands have touched of late has turned to s.. let's say, that proverbial stone. Be it Middle East peace, democracy by bayonet, economy, internal politics...I'm far from profecizing, but I would be concerned about the trend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Americans certainly fought tyranny! I never suggested otherwise. What America has been blessed NOT to deal with, however, was an internal tyranny. There's a big difference. I agree with you - the Arabs need to take a look into the mirror and shake off their habit of always blaming America, Jews, and Israel. We have between little and nothing to do with their affairs (minus America's involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq with her coalition in recent years, of course). Americans have fought a lot of tyranny, but also sponsored and enabled a lot of tyranny. It comes down to self interest, not anything else. Sometimes its in their self interest to remove an oppresive regime, sometimes its in their interests to empower, fund, and befriend one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I'm well aware of that. It's a difficult position for the USA to be in. You seem to be overlooking the humanitarian side of American aid to Egypt. Every dollar of value (whether in cash or in goods/services) is a dollar made free for essentials. Without American aid, military or otherwise, Egyptian quality of life would go down. How much would it go down? Well, apparently American foreign aid to Egypt has been averaging about two billion dollars since 1979, all we need to do now is determine Egypt's average GDP during that time... Well... That "economic growth" and "standard of living" in Egypt is/was directly realted to the amount a Fascist thug like Mubarak was intending to give up... It turns out,not a whole lot... In thoerwords,we don't know what the economic potential of Egypt is because The financiers of Mr.Mubarak turned a blind eye to the abuses he weraked on his populous,so long as he carried on the Saddatian tradition vis avis Israel,and more impotantly,crushed Islamofascism internally... Actually,this is SOP for the US State Dept. for the last 80 years,or so....It's come back to bite them more than once... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Americans have fought a lot of tyranny, but also sponsored and enabled a lot of tyranny. It comes down to self interest, not anything else. Sometimes its in their self interest to remove an oppresive regime, sometimes its in their interests to empower, fund, and befriend one. Correct...the USA has a lot of interests while it attempts to police a whole planet. Any fool who fails to understand this will fall into the same old trap. One time, we even made deals with Stalin...imagine that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Americans have fought a lot of tyranny, but also sponsored and enabled a lot of tyranny. It comes down to self interest, not anything else. Sometimes its in their self interest to remove an oppresive regime, sometimes its in their interests to empower, fund, and befriend one. Spot on... See Central and South America,SubSaharan Africa,the Middle East,Indochina..etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Americans have fought a lot of tyranny, but also sponsored and enabled a lot of tyranny. It comes down to self interest, not anything else. Sometimes its in their self interest to remove an oppresive regime, sometimes its in their interests to empower, fund, and befriend one. There's self-interest and then there's self-interest. America's interests in the Middle East are extremely crucial. Oil is one of America's economic essentials. Of course this is true for many countries. America hasn't formed its relationship with Egypt for small potatoes. These strategic relationships are not being done in order to give Wal-Mart an edge in the couscous market. Again, you deal with the world as it is, not with the world you want. America cannot simply make the Middle East into a friendly region filled with like-minded liberal democracies. So, America must deal with reality. And as usual, the ideologues will continue spewing their rhetoric of "US-backed regimes", as if America has some other choice. Edited January 30, 2011 by Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esq Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) I had the urge to email Mubarak (just before he asked his government to resign), and tell him to ruthelessly put down the revolt, but I wasn't at peace with the suggestion so didn't. I stopped in the international section to say "What the heck is going on in North Africa?" What started out in the Ivory Coast as a focus leapfrogged along the north - and it seems it is an fundamentalist Islamic movement - but maybe it is disconnected? The Ivory Coast leader is christian (gbagbo)... while Outtaro is muslim. Probably disconnected.. Really what is going on, and would I also suggest leaving israel right now too? Edited January 30, 2011 by Esq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Well... That "economic growth" and "standard of living" in Egypt is/was directly realted to the amount a Fascist thug like Mubarak was intending to give up... It turns out,not a whole lot... In thoerwords,we don't know what the economic potential of Egypt is because The financiers of Mr.Mubarak turned a blind eye to the abuses he weraked on his populous,so long as he carried on the Saddatian tradition vis avis Israel,and more impotantly,crushed Islamofascism internally... Actually,this is SOP for the US State Dept. for the last 80 years,or so....It's come back to bite them more than once... And what's America's alternative to dealing with the oppressive regimes as they are? You expect America to leave itself vulnerable to economic shut-down via a bunch of Arabs through OPEC or something else? It must develop relationships with the governments in charge of the countries that have the oil. Beyond oil, there are also strategic military purposes to this region for America, and particularly its allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 And what's America's alternative to dealing with the oppressive regimes as they are? You expect America to leave itself vulnerable to economic shut-down via a bunch of Arabs through OPEC or something else? It must develop relationships with the governments in charge of the countries that have the oil. Beyond oil, there are also strategic military purposes to this region for America, and particularly its allies. All excellent points...I guess it is OK for America to forge such economic and military relationships with Canada, but not Arab states? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I had the urge to email Mubarak (just before he asked his government to resign), and tell him to ruthelessly put down the revolt, but I wasn't at peace with the suggestion so didn't. I stopped in the international section to say "What the heck is going on in North Africa?" What started out in the Ivory Coast as a focus leapfrogged along the north - and it seems it is an fundamentalist Islamic movement - but maybe it is disconnected? The Ivory Coast leader is christian (gbagbo)... while Outtaro is muslim. Probably disconnected.. Really what is going on, and would I also suggest leaving israel right now too? Maybe... I'll bet there alot of SubSaharan Afrian dictators who are looking at the Tunisia and Egypt situations and taking a long look in the mirror... We've had a coup in Guinea,problems in the Cote D'Ivoire,an election coming in Cameroon,chaos in the DRC,an independence success in Southern Sudan... All within the past year,or coming shortly... SubSaharan Africa is not immune to this at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 All excellent points...I guess it is OK for America to forge such economic and military relationships with Canada, but not Arab states? Seriously, though... what do the leftists want? America may be the world's only superpower, but she certainly does not have the power to remake the world in her image. I believe in American exceptionalism, but I don't believe America can export it across the world easily. Do the leftists want America to support revolutionaries it believes are democratic? Maybe they want sanctions and movements to isolate these regimes? What about the cost to America? America has a difficult road to walk on, and it's been difficult for a long time. On the one hand, America must service her people and act in her own best interests. On the other hand, these needs must be balanced with a sense of justice and morality. It's not easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) All excellent points...I guess it is OK for America to forge such economic and military relationships with Canada, but not Arab states? Apparently it's just peachy for Canada et al to benefit from our economic and military relationships, all the while criticizing us for it. In other words, leave it to someone else to do what's perceived as the dirty work, eagerly benefit from it, and then point the holier-than-thou finger at them. Edited January 30, 2011 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 And what's America's alternative to dealing with the oppressive regimes as they are? You expect America to leave itself vulnerable to economic shut-down via a bunch of Arabs through OPEC or something else? It must develop relationships with the governments in charge of the countries that have the oil. Beyond oil, there are also strategic military purposes to this region for America, and particularly its allies. Hogwash... The US State Dept. has always had a choice.Historically,they have talked up democracy,but sided with Fascists all over the world.Mostly because Fascists are control freaks who: 1.Hate Communists 2.Can be easily controlled with money,guns,and,a free reign to kill any and all oppposition INCLUDING democrats. This does'nt just relate to Egypt,or the Middle East...This has been a global effort by the State Dept. through its many fronts.One need only look at Central,South America,and,the Carribean to see this.I could go into the follies of SubSaharan Africa or the Middle East,as well.. The reason is that democracies are inherently less controllable than top down dictatorships.The problem with that type of policy is that,while expedient,it has a limited future and the blowback is quite severe.See Iran,Venezuela,the attempts to prop up Chiang Kai Shek,General Suharto etc....And now,Egypt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 All excellent points...I guess it is OK for America to forge such economic and military relationships with Canada, but not Arab states? Wow ... You're really losing it today aren't you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 The disintegration of the American empire is a sad thing to watch especially with the myopic view of this fellow named Bush-Cheney. Is he a typical yank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Apparently it's just peachy for Canada et al to benefit from our economic and military relationships, all the while criticizing us for it. In other words, leave it to someone else to do what's perceived as the dirty work, eagerly benefit from it, and then point the holier-than-thou finger at them. Point of order... Not everything that US does is beneficial to Canada nor anyone else... THOSE ARE the things we point fingers at... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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