Your predictions on how we will deal with the coming health care crisi

[dre]

Nobody's suggesting that. That's the usual false choice trotted out by regressives who wish to see no real changes.

"Fixing" healthcare costs through privatization is a false choice to begin with and even a first year economics student could explain why. Demand is increasing, and prices are going up along with it. This is true in almost the entire western world, regardless of who the payer is in each system.

So the answer, and the ONLY answer is to REDUCE DEMAND on the Canadian system. And the way to do that is to offload as many patients as possible onto other markets. That will push prices down here at home because there wont be as much demand for medical services, and health workers will be forced to compete with health workers in other countries that make 1/10th as much money yet have relatively comparable skills and produce comparable patient outcomes.

[pinko]

"Fixing" healthcare costs through privatization is a false choice to begin with and even a first year economics student could explain why. Demand is increasing, and prices are going up along with it. This is true in almost the entire western world, regardless of who the payer is in each system.

So the answer, and the ONLY answer is to REDUCE DEMAND on the Canadian system. And the way to do that is to offload as many patients as possible onto other markets. That will push prices down here at home because there wont be as much demand for medical services, and health workers will be forced to compete with health workers in other countries that make 1/10th as much money yet have relatively comparable skills and produce comparable patient outcomes.

To the contrary Canadian healthcare professionals will be in high demand for quite sometime into the foreseeable future. There is currently a shortage of medical practitioners and nurses. As for those trips overseas that will be for a limited number of individuals with the resources.

[dre]

To the contrary Canadian healthcare professionals will be in high demand for quite sometime into the foreseeable future. There is currently a shortage of medical practitioners and nurses. As for those trips overseas that will be for a limited number of individuals with the resources.

If you look further up the page, I explained how those offshore resources can be leveraged by anybody who chooses to do so. Not only will we save the system a pile of money and reduce the load on it, but the patients can actually walk away from the whole thing with a big pocket of cash.

Read it... Let me know what you think.

To the contrary Canadian healthcare professionals will be in high demand for quite sometime into the foreseeable future.

Yup. Thats what I said. Demand will increase and prices with it... regardless of whether the system is public or provide or two tier. A first year economics student could easily explain why.

So the key had to be reducing demand... the way to do it is actually pretty easy.

[Shady]

"Fixing" healthcare costs through privatization is a false choice

Complete nonsense. It's an option, that comprised with other things as well, can go along way in remedying the situation.

Demand is increasing, and prices are going up along with it. This is true in almost the entire western world, regardless of who the payer is in each system.

So the answer, and the ONLY answer is to REDUCE DEMAND on the Canadian system.

Not true. That's not the ONLY answer. One can reduce the demand, or increase the supply of those providing health care services. Or a combination of both.

As has already been suggested. Our single-payer system could handle catastrophic health problems, and more complex health procedures. Private clinics, etc, could handle more routine things.

[Jack Weber]

Legalize it! That's right, legalize private health insurance. Let people use their own money to pay for their health care. It would save a boat load of money for the government. And I'm gettin sick and tired of people opposing this based soley on politics. Other countries have good hybrid systems. We can too.

Don Mazankowski thanks you...

[dre]

Complete nonsense. It's an option, that comprised with other things as well, can go along way in remedying the situation.

Not true. That's not the ONLY answer. One can reduce the demand, or increase the supply of those providing health care services. Or a combination of both.

As has already been suggested. Our single-payer system could handle catastrophic health problems, and more complex health procedures. Private clinics, etc, could handle more routine things.

Complete nonsense. It's an option, that comprised with other things as well, can go along way in remedying the situation.

Horse shit. Prices for private systems are increasing just as fast as public systems. It will do NOTHING to control costs.

As has already been suggested. Our single-payer system could handle catastrophic health problems, and more complex health procedures. Private clinics, etc, could handle more routine things.

You dont get it. Both of those parralell systems draw from the same pool of healthcare workers, and those are the most expensive workers on the entire planet. All that will do is increase demand on Canadian providers.

If you want to reduce demand you need start leveraging other resources besides Canadian or US healthcare workers.

All Canada has to do is make medicare fund operations in foreign hospitals (which normally cost about 1/10th of what the cost here, and split the savings with the patient. End of problem within a couple of short years.

The whole "private vs public" debate is a complete and total red herring. Prices are going up in both sectors. The key is to look at WHY health care costs are going up in both public and private systems, in almost every western country.... and the answer is that that aging populatings are increasing demand, and prices along with it.

Edited January 18, 2011 by dre

[eyeball]

The real silver bullet is to force Canadian health providers to compete with providers in places like India, Thailand, NewZealand, etc.

This might create a problem for people in poorer countries and I wonder if it's appropriate to include a more developed country like New Zealand in your short list of still developing countries like India and Thailand.

The problem is that scarce health care resources in poor countries could be directed towards servicing the needs of paying customers leaving citizens in that country with even less health care. We create an even worse problem for these countries when we recruit doctors and encourage them to immigrate here.

OTOH I could support your proposal if a good portion of the dollars we send overseas is invested in health care facilities in these countries and health care for poorer people but I'd need to see some institutions capable of truly deep transparency and accountability to ensure the plan wasn't corrupted by greed and inefficiency but especially greed. What I'd especially like to see is that the idea of universality be exported.

Edited January 18, 2011 by eyeball

[dre]

This might create a problem for people in poorer countries and I wonder if it's appropriate to include a more developed country like New Zealand in your short list of still developing countries like India and Thailand.

The problem is that scarce health care resources in poor countries could be directed towards servicing the needs of paying customers leaving citizens in that country with even less health care. We create an even worse problem for these countries when we recruit doctors and encourage them to immigrate here.

OTOH I could support your proposal if a good portion of the dollars we send overseas is invested in health care facilities in these countries and health care for poorer people but I'd need to see some institutions capable of truly deep transparency and accountability to ensure the plan wasn't corrupted by greed and inefficiency but especially greed. What I'd especially like to see is that the idea of universality be exported.

I see your point but these are major growth industries in these countries, and they already handle millions of westerners per year. The governments are actively trying to turn this into a lucrative business, its not a matter of us forcing ourselves on them. This is an economic opportunity for these countries, and for us as well.

The trick is to help them attract western consumers... We should invest in institutions like the JCI that inspect foreign facilities to make sure they meet standards for patient outcomes.

Heres an example of some of the savings available to our system if we end medical protectionism and allow medical tourism under the Canadian public insurance system.

The cost of surgery in India, Thailand or South Africa can be one-tenth of what it is in the United States or Western Europe, and sometimes even less. A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the US, for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the US costs $500 in India, a knee replacement in Thailand with six days of physical therapy costs about one-fifth of what it would in the States, and Lasik eye surgery worth $3,700 in the US is available in many other countries for only $730. Cosmetic surgery savings are even greater: A full facelift that would cost $20,000 in the US runs about $1,250 in South Africa

Edited January 18, 2011 by dre

[pinko]

I see your point but these are major growth industries in these countries, and they already handle millions of westerners per year. The governments are actively trying to turn this into a lucrative business, its not a matter of us forcing ourselves on them. This is an economic opportunity for these countries, and for us as well.

The trick is to help them attract western consumers... We should invest in institutions like the JCI that inspect foreign facilities to make sure they meet standards for patient outcomes.

Heres an example of some of the savings available to our system if we end medical protectionism and allow medical tourism under the Canadian public insurance system.

I don't see the comodification of healthcare in the manner suggested as providing an effective alternative to what is avialble now. As I mentioned there is a shortage of doctors and nurses caused by the ill conceived and short sighted policies decisions made in the 90s by all governments. Here in Manitoba the number of spots funded for doctors and nurses has increased but there is still a shortage of qualified practitioners.

Edited January 18, 2011 by pinko

[dre]

I don't see the comodification of healthcare in the manner suggested as providing an effective alternative to what is avialble now. As I mentioned there is a shortage of doctors and nurses caused by the ill conceived and short sighted policies decisions made in the 90s by all governments. Here in Manitoba the number of spots funded for doctors and nurses has increased but there is still a shortage of qualified practitioners.

I don't see the comodification of healthcare in the manner suggested as providing an effective alternative to what is avialble now.

It already IS providing an effective alternative. Millions of people are doing this NOW and many of them save enough from a single procedure to send a child to university for a year. Your "solution" is to keep using the most expensive healthcare workers on the planet! We already KNOW healthcare costs in the west are going to INCREASE in price between 5% and 10% per year. My plan can radically bring prices down.

[bush_cheney2004]

Meh...American Drs and patients come to Toronto all the time to learn and be treated at the best place they can find.

Eye and Heart Specialists for two.

Meh right back...those Americans are not Prime Ministers and MPs. We know where to find them when their asses are on the line.

[guyser]

Meh right back...those Americans are not Prime Ministers and MPs. We know where to find them when their asses are on the line.

You are thin skinned arent you?

Well yeah, I suppose so. They're American, they cant be PM's or MP's. Why did you think they could?

1.2m Americans leave your country for healthcare. Not the same here. Slag were warranted, but this one bit ya back.

Edited January 18, 2011 by guyser

[g_bambino]

I'm wondering what you think is most likely to occur? Or is there another obvious solution i missed?

I don't know that it's a solution unto itself, but few people seem to be considering illness prevention rather than just focusing on illness treatment. If people were encouraged to take better care of themselves, it seems a logical prediction that there would be less obesity, heart disease, cancers, and the like, and thus fewer subsequent complications, meaning there would be less demand on the healthcare system, therefore requiring less money to run it.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are thin skinned arent you?

Not at all...sorry if all those high profile cases still sting. I hope PM Chretien, his family, Ms. Stronach, and MP Williams are all doing fine.

Well yeah, I suppose so. They're American, they cant be PM's or MP's. Why did you think they could?

Yes they can....same as the Governor of Michigan.

1.2m Americans leave your country for healthcare. Not the same here. Slag were warranted, but this one bit ya back.

You don't have that many doctors, nurses, radiologists, etc., but they sure made a run for the border when Chretien cut off funding to the provinces. We'll leave the light on for ya!

[Battletoads]

Seeing as number three will do nothing but make helthcare more expensive it ought to be removed from the table.

[pinko]

Not at all...sorry if all those high profile cases still sting. I hope PM Chretien, his family, Ms. Stronach, and MP Williams are all doing fine.

Yes they can....same as the Governor of Michigan.

You don't have that many doctors, nurses, radiologists, etc., but they sure made a run for the border when Chretien cut off funding to the provinces. We'll leave the light on for ya!

Your information is both inaccurate and dated.

[bush_cheney2004]

Your information is both inaccurate and dated.

Sure it is...you just can't prove it! The way Canadian provinces deal with current health care crises is to ration care with wait times and/or send patients to foreign providers and facilities.

[Bonam]

While dre's plan would certainly lower the cost of health care, I sure hope Canadians don't mind including their kidneys as payment along with the money for their health procedures done in India. I wouldn't set foot in an Indian hospital without a squad of very loyal and very heavily armed guards, JCI accreditation or no. It's not that I think the people that are doing the procedure are guys in huts with bones through their face but rather that legal recourse for malpractice would be much more difficult and that there have been many documented instances of organ harvesting and other malevolent operations.

Now, I agree, people should be able to consider any risks for themselves and make their own choice. But let's say someone goes to India, has complications from their procedure, and then comes back to Canada. Well, who is paying for all the health care associated with those complications? Canada is.

[pinko]

Sure it is...you just can't prove it! The way Canadian provinces deal with current health care crises is to ration care with wait times and/or send patients to foreign providers and facilities.

There is no crisis other than in the thick heads of the ill informed and that includes you. Speaking as a senior my medical needs are being adequately met and I don't anticipate that will change. The USA, on the other hand, has one hell of a mess on its hands.

[Guest TrueMetis]

What about increasing the retirement age?

[bush_cheney2004]

There is no crisis other than in the thick heads of the ill informed and that includes you. Speaking as a senior my medical needs are being adequately met and I don't anticipate that will change. The USA, on the other hand, has one hell of a mess on its hands.

But this thread is not about any health care crisis in the USA....stop trying to dodge the obvious. You...old man...are still going to have a problem. My medical needs are being met as well, and far better than just "adequately". Hell, even my cat does better too, 'cause he pays kitty cash!

[pinko]

But this thread is not about any health care crisis in the USA....stop trying to dodge the obvious. You...old man...are still going to have a problem. My medical needs are being met as well, and far better than just "adequately". Hell, even my cat does better too, 'cause he pays kitty cash!

I have access to a Nurse Practitioner and a doctor and have no problem getting into see either within a few days. I am in relatively good health and have never had a problem gaining timely access to healthcare. The American system is structured in such a manner so as to disenfranchise many and drive some into poverty. Yours is an expensive inefficient model regardless of your bravado.

[bush_cheney2004]

I have access to a Nurse Practitioner and a doctor and have no problem getting into see either within a few days. I am in relatively good health and have never had a problem gaining timely access to healthcare.

Why would anyone have a problem getting "timely access" in Canada...not just you selfish old man! So what's the problem, eh?

The American system is structured in such a manner so as to disenfranchise many and drive some into poverty. Yours is an expensive inefficient model regardless of your bravado.

Health care is not a right...not even in Canada.

[August1991]

Two tier would also have rationing...unless you think that for profit hospitals and insurance companies do things out of the goodness of their hearts.

And by your logic, Loblaws and IGA also "ration" food for profit. But Canadians generally eat well and while some don't, it is because of their own choices.

By rationing, I meant choices made by bureaucrats - not individuals choosing an insurance scheme, or a food store.

-----

Smallc, do you think that the government should monopolize food production/distribution since food is critical for life?

Edited January 19, 2011 by August1991

[M.Dancer]

Health care is not a right...not even in Canada.

In Quebec it might be...