Your predictions on how we will deal with the coming health care crisi

[Michael Hardner]

I take it you mean moving the jobs offshore when you refer to outsourcing.

Not necessarily, no. They are different.

[M.Dancer]

I take it you mean moving the jobs offshore when you refer to outsourcing.

That is not what outsorcing is. Generally it refers to contracting out elements of the business that are not key to the business model. It can be shipped to a different country, but by far the bulk are domestic.

Another example may be a supermarket that outsources their cleaning needs....

[Michael Hardner]

I am not here to educate you. What I will say though is that once a collective agreement is in place both parties recognize that during the term of that agreement it remains in full force and effect. Prior to the nominal expiry date either party may give notice to commence collective bargaining with proposals being exchanged with respect to the terms and conditions of a prospective collective agreement. Under such circumstances there would be nothing preventing an employer from attempting to introduce a different method of compensation. If the union negotiating committee had a mandate to consider such a plan and provided it met the needs of the union membership at large and was ratified then certainly that may transpire. If, however, it was perceived to be not in the best interests of the union or its's memebership then obviously it wouldn't fly.

So what did I write that contradicts that ?

[pinko]

That is not what outsorcing is. Generally it refers to contracting out elements of the business that are not key to the business model. It can be shipped to a different country, but by far the bulk are domestic.

Another example may be a supermarket that outsources their cleaning needs....

I am in agreement with you that outsourcing and contracting out may be used interchangeably. I am quite familiar with the supermarket example and even recall being part of an arbitration panel where that was an issue.

Edited January 25, 2011 by pinko

[PIK]

It would cause a huge fight is all, and most politicians don't have the stomach for that.

You are right,funny thing I just priced something for a dam ,gave them 3 prices and the answer,the most expensive one will do.

[pinko]

So what did I write that contradicts that ?

Here is what you said previously:

"Another idea might be to set up a new organization within the organization that has a mandate to improve efficiency. Put those who want real change into that group, and seed it with new hires from the union/non union world."

Apparently you haven't fully understood the successor rights and common employer concept. Where do you live?

If you live here in Canada there should be literature available through a google search. Get back to me when you have figured this part of the equation out and then we will get into obligations created upon union certification.

[Michael Hardner]

Apparently you haven't fully understood the successor rights and common employer concept. Where do you live?

I guess we're not understanding each other. The new organization within the organization would still be resourced from unionized employees, and there would be no new employer involved. You might not even need to modify agreements, although you'd likely have to offer something to the union to show good faith.

The idea is that an organization's environment dictates how work is done. The efficiency, flexibility, and effectiveness of the team is a result of a lot of factors. You can sometimes do more work with the same number of people, or even the same people if there is a better environment.

[Oleg Bach]

Number one - stop incrimentally harrassing so-called baby boomers with the idea that they are already some burden when they are not - What is the point of breaking their spirit? 60 is the new forty.....my oldest daughter is starting to treat me as if I am 85...stupid little girl!

As long as I can walk - eat and get IT up...mind your own buisness and stop insisting that us boomers make way and crawl into the grave...We are the wisest and most powerful generation known to mankind...and to oust us with this propoganda is not going to work - we are around for at least another twenty years...I'm here with no fear...GET USED TO IT!

The real crisis is not with boomers but with cowardly - ammoral godless sons of bitches that want what we have - but do not have the skill or brains or work ethic to gain it....so why don' all you YOUNG folks just f off....I am KING and like all boomers - YOU can not have my throne till I decide to get off or I finally turn to mummy dust.

[pinko]

I guess we're not understanding each other. The new organization within the organization would still be resourced from unionized employees, and there would be no new employer involved. You might not even need to modify agreements, although you'd likely have to offer something to the union to show good faith.

The idea is that an organization's environment dictates how work is done. The efficiency, flexibility, and effectiveness of the team is a result of a lot of factors. You can sometimes do more work with the same number of people, or even the same people if there is a better environment.

You might ask yourself why a union and it's members would want a new organization. If there is an agreement in place there would be no incentive for the union to open up the contract.

The managment rights you describe are always qualified by the specific terms of the collective agreement.

Edited January 25, 2011 by pinko

[pinko]

Number one - stop incrimentally harrassing so-called baby boomers with the idea that they are already some burden when they are not - What is the point of breaking their spirit? 60 is the new forty.....my oldest daughter is starting to treat me as if I am 85...stupid little girl!

As long as I can walk - eat and get IT up...mind your own buisness and stop insisting that us boomers make way and crawl into the grave...We are the wisest and most powerful generation known to mankind...and to oust us with this propoganda is not going to work - we are around for at least another twenty years...I'm here with no fear...GET USED TO IT!

The real crisis is not with boomers but with cowardly - ammoral godless sons of bitches that want what we have - but do not have the skill or brains or work ethic to gain it....so why don' all you YOUNG folks just f off....I am KING and like all boomers - YOU can not have my throne till I decide to get off or I finally turn to mummy dust.

That is the cross we old farts have to bear...bare

[Michael Hardner]

You might ask yourself why a union and it's members would want a new organization. If there is an agreement in place there would be no incentive for the union to open up the contract.

Better management might be an incentive.

A better work environment.

And, more money as an option if there are savings.

The managment rights you describe are always qualified by the specific terms of the collective agreement.

As to who is a manager and who isn't, yes. But you can hire a new manager, set up a new location, staff it with newly hired union people and you effectively have a new company working under the old rules.

The advantage is that you have a complete cultural change in the new location. The disadvantage is that you have all green beans, no old fogies to learn from...

[pinko]

Better management might be an incentive.

A better work environment.

And, more money as an option if there are savings.

As to who is a manager and who isn't, yes. But you can hire a new manager, set up a new location, staff it with newly hired union people and you effectively have a new company working under the old rules.

The advantage is that you have a complete cultural change in the new location. The disadvantage is that you have all green beans, no old fogies to learn from...

A better work environment is strictly a matter of perception. If an employer has the resources to move to a new location and hire new employees (something missing in your first scenario) that is quite another matter.

[Michael Hardner]

A better work environment is strictly a matter of perception. If an employer has the resources to move to a new location and hire new employees (something missing in your first scenario) that is quite another matter.

Right. I wasn't clear enough when I talked about the organization within the organization. I worked for CP Rail, and the union/management relations were odious, a layover from a century of antagonism. When I worked for them, uneducated people were making six figures doing basic labour... and they still hated the company.

It was a terrible relationship, as I said, haunted by the ghosts of past abuses.

But setting up a new organization might address that. This is kind of what GM tried to do with Saturn. That ended up being folded, though so the example doesn't help my case, I realize.

----

Please understand that I'm pro-labour, but I also want a third way. When I see two binary options, neither of which are optimal I look for other ideas.

[pinko]

Right. I wasn't clear enough when I talked about the organization within the organization. I worked for CP Rail, and the union/management relations were odious, a layover from a century of antagonism. When I worked for them, uneducated people were making six figures doing basic labour... and they still hated the company.

It was a terrible relationship, as I said, haunted by the ghosts of past abuses.

But setting up a new organization might address that. This is kind of what GM tried to do with Saturn. That ended up being folded, though so the example doesn't help my case, I realize.

----

Please understand that I'm pro-labour, but I also want a third way. When I see two binary options, neither of which are optimal I look for other ideas.

CN ands CP are similar as far as the work environment goes. Old habits die hard.

[bloodyminded]

Number one - stop incrimentally harrassing so-called baby boomers with the idea that they are already some burden when they are not - What is the point of breaking their spirit? 60 is the new forty.....my oldest daughter is starting to treat me as if I am 85...stupid little girl!

As long as I can walk - eat and get IT up...mind your own buisness and stop insisting that us boomers make way and crawl into the grave...We are the wisest and most powerful generation known to mankind...and to oust us with this propoganda is not going to work - we are around for at least another twenty years...I'm here with no fear...GET USED TO IT!

The real crisis is not with boomers but with cowardly - ammoral godless sons of bitches that want what we have - but do not have the skill or brains or work ethic to gain it....so why don' all you YOUNG folks just f off....I am KING and like all boomers - YOU can not have my throne till I decide to get off or I finally turn to mummy dust.

I agree with you that denouncing an entire generation is unreasonable; it doesn't make sense.

But then, you turn around and do exactly that.