Your predictions on how we will deal with the coming health care crisi

[August1991]

I don't know that it's a solution unto itself, but few people seem to be considering illness prevention rather than just focusing on illness treatment. If people were encouraged to take better care of themselves, it seems a logical prediction that there would be less obesity, heart disease, cancers, and the like, and thus fewer subsequent complications, meaning there would be less demand on the healthcare system, therefore requiring less money to run it.

I once met an American who operated a private ambulance service in Boston. I asked him: "Why are ambulance rides so expensive? You can take a taxis to the hospital for $20 but in an ambulance, it costs $200?"

He started by talking about liability insurance and then riffed into union wages and paramedic training.

When he understood that I was Canadian, he said: "It's much better in Canada. In Canada, if someone is sick, they go see a doctor. In the States, they wait until it's serious and then it costs a fortune. That's why US medical costs are so high."

I said nothing but I laughed in irony.

------

Bambino, you raise a very good point.

Underneath all, I think public discussions of health care are impossible. Health care is an existential issue. Some of us are willing to face the fact of death, and others cannot.

State health care in the 21st century is like the Catholic Church in the 10th century.

[Smallc]

By rationing, I meant choices made by bureaucrats - not individuals choosing an insurance scheme, or a food store.

Ok, so how do you feel about choices made by insurance executives? I'd rather have the bureaucrat making choices.

[Smallc]

I once met an American who operated a private ambulance service in Boston. I asked him: "Why are ambulance rides so expensive? You can take a taxis to the hospital for $20 but in an ambulance, it costs $200?"

Are you seriously that short on knowledge? The ambulance itself is about 150k...paramedics get paid at least 50k per year...then there's the fuel...the maintenance...the drugs...the oxygen...the cleaning supplies. I could go on and on.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Smallc

[August1991]

Ok, so how do you feel about choices made by insurance executives? I'd rather have the bureaucrat making choices.

WTF? Smallc, I suggest that you spend a year or two as a bureaucrat.

In simple terms: I can choose the insurance executive. Can you choose the bureaucrat?

----

In fact smallc, that's what some people in Canada do. They choose the bureaucrat by badgering, offering gifts until they get the answer they want.

Welcome to the world of rationing by bureaucracy.

Are you seriously that short on knowledge? The ambulance itself is about 150k...paramedics get paid at least 50k per year...then there's the fuel...the maintenance...the drugs...the oxygen...the cleaning supplies. I could go on and on.

And yet if it's "free" to the user, and you've got time, that's how some users go to Emergency.

Imagine the cost to the taxpayer.

-----

Canada's health system is tantamount to a large grocery chain where anyone can take food for free - under the premise that food is critical for life.

When first introduced in the 1960s, such a scheme might have worked. Now, it obviously does not. Everyone and her sister are going to hospitals/clinics to get "free" stuff.

I predict further rationing, Soviet-style, until an eventual Gorbachev/Chernobyl meltdown. The Soviet system lasted for 75 years or so but I doubt that our health system will last as long.

Edited January 19, 2011 by August1991

[Smallc]

In simple terms: I can choose the insurance executive.

That's very doubtful in most situations, and it's also very unusual that there would be much variation in insurance provider models.

In fact smallc, that's what some people in Canada do. They choose the bureaucrat by badgering, offering gifts until they get the answer they want.

Welcome to the world of rationing by bureaucracy.

Uh huh....

And yet if it's "free" to the user, and you've got time, that's how some users go to Emergency.

Imagine the cost to the taxpayer.

And? Generally, you have to be pretty poor before ambulance is free anyway. We don't pay the entire cost, but we pay some.

[August1991]

Uh huh....

You're in denial, Smallc. You want to believe that Canada's health system works. It may have worked in the 1970s and 1980s but it doesn't work now.

Anyway, as I say, public discussions of state health care in the Western World are now existential.

State health care in the 21st century is like the Catholic Church in the 10th century. Westerners view it is a matter of life and death.

[dre]

You're in denial, Smallc. You want to believe that Canada's health system works. It may have worked in the 1970s and 1980s but it doesn't work now.

Anyway, as I say, public discussions of state health care in the Western World are now existential.

State health care in the 21st century is like the Catholic Church in the 10th century. Westerners view it is a matter of life and death.

Works pretty good for me so far, and our cost problems have not a THING to do with the type of system we have.

[eyeball]

What about increasing the retirement age?

Isn't that pretty much the same as lowering life expectancy?

If I'm expected to work till I drop I want the right to boogie till I puke.

[August1991]

Works pretty good for me so far...

I'm alright Jack.

As I say, you are in denial. It's not sustainable. It works now if you have contacts.

[Evening Star]

If those who opt for private insurance continue to be taxed for the public service, then I have no problem with it.

Really, BM? I could only be swayed to this position if I could see that opening up the insurance market in this way would actually somehow allow for better-quality or just more health care to eventually become available, improving everyone's lot in the long run. Otherwise, I tend to feel that access to high-quality health care should be allocated by need rather than by ability to pay.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Evening Star

[Evening Star]

And I don't know the answer to how the government will respond to increasing health care costs. A combination of all three sounds possible. I think that greater centralization of some services might help in some areas. I certainly agree with Michael about the need for information. Greater government control over drug prices, which could include bulk purchasing or even nationalization of some things, might potentially help.

[August1991]

Otherwise, I tend to feel that access to high-quality health care should be allocated by need rather than by ability to pay.

Who defines "need"?

Or, do you think Canadiens/Oiler/Maple Leaf hockey players go through the same medical system as you or I do?

There is an amazing hypocrisy/denial in Canada. It is different in English and French Canada but it exists in both.

[pinko]

I'm alright Jack.

As I say, you are in denial. It's not sustainable. It works now if you have contacts.

Hogwash. As a Canadian citizen who has utilized the healthcare system here in Manitoba I can tell you the system has worked for me. That you refuse to believe this is your problem. The system can and will be sustained.

[pinko]

Who defines "need"?

Or, do you think Canadiens/Oiler/Maple Leaf hockey players go through the same medical system as you or I do?

There is an amazing hypocrisy/denial in Canada. It is different in English and French Canada but it exists in both.

Need is determined by circumstance. In the case of a workplace injury (i.e. the hockey player) several jurisdictions allow for this through workers comp legislation. So the answer to your question is yes the hockey players utilize the same system you and I do.

Edited January 19, 2011 by pinko

[M.Dancer]

Need is determined by circumstance. In the case of a workplace injury (i.e. the hockey player) several jurisdictions allow for this through workers comp legislation. So the answer to your question is yes the hockey players utilize the same system you and I do.

Right. When was the last time you heard of a NHL player having to wait for a MRI? They use the two tier system....an american sports clinic...

[pinko]

Right. When was the last time you heard of a NHL player having to wait for a MRI? They use the two tier system....an american sports clinic...

So you are taking a situation involving a hockey team with significant financial resources leveraging those resources to expedite the return of a hockey player(asset) to his occupation on the ice to support your position.

Surely you should be able to come up with a better argument than that to support the weak position you advance.

Please explain to me how such a situation impacts your access to care in Quebec.

Edited January 19, 2011 by pinko

[bush_cheney2004]

....Please explain to me how such a situation impacts your access to care in Quebec.

Hmmm...let's see...Quebec....that would be no third tri abortions unless the life of the mother is threatened. So it's off to the USA (Kansas) to get the job done. Is that real enough for ya?

Edited January 19, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[pinko]

Hmmm...let's see...Quebec....that would be no third tri abortions unless the life of the mother is threatened. So it's off to the USA (Kansas) to get the job done. Is that real enough for ya?

Or perhaps to British Columbia or some other province. As you should know the Supreme Court of Canada dealt with the abortion issue and placed no restrictions on it.

[M.Dancer]

So you are taking a situation involving a hockey team with significant financial resources leveraging those resources to expedite the return of a hockey player(asset) to his occupation on the ice to support your position.

Surely you should be able to come up with a better argument than that to support the weak position you advance.

No I'm taking your baloney statement

So the answer to your question is yes the hockey players utilize the same system you and I do.

...and shredding it.

But you are right in one sense, those with ample financial resources, including politicians and hockey players leverage those resources for faster and in some cases better service outside of our sysytem.

[bush_cheney2004]

Or perhaps to British Columbia or some other province. As you should know the Supreme Court of Canada dealt with the abortion issue and placed no restrictions on it.

Doesn't matter...you can't make a doctor perform the procedure in Quebec if they choose not to.

[Bonam]

Isn't that pretty much the same as lowering life expectancy?

If I'm expected to work till I drop I want the right to boogie till I puke.

No it's not the "same". You only work part of the day (typically 8 hours), the rest is yours to do with as you please. Not working just sounds boring anyway. What the heck would you do, sit around all day reminiscing about old times in your old age? I'd much rather keep working, but then, that's cause I work in a field I enjoy.

Raising the retirement age is an utterly inevitable thing as life expectancy continues to increase.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Bonam

[Evening Star]

Doesn't matter...you can't make a doctor perform the procedure in Quebec if they choose not to.

That's not because of socialized health insurance though (and the province is actively seeking doctors who will perform the procedure). I'm not clear on what point you're trying to make about the health care system and solutions to potential crises, unless it's just a "Scoreboard!" sort of deal.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Evening Star

[bush_cheney2004]

That's not because of socialized health insurance thoughn (and the province is actively seeking doctors who will perform the procedure). I'm not clear on what point you're trying to make about the health care system and solutions to potential crises, unless it's just a "Scoreboard!" sort of deal.

The point is that "socialized healthcare" cannot provide complete reproductive services in Quebec (regardless of the cause), and provides a remedy by contracting with American for-profit hospitals/clinics (in "JesusLand" Kansas, of all places). That is just whacked given the rambling criticisms of "privatized healthcare".

[pinko]

Doesn't matter...you can't make a doctor perform the procedure in Quebec if they choose not to.

You certainly like going off on a tangent. Here is some information for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Morgentaler

By the way doctors in any province may opt out of doing abortions. One of my son's specialties is in that particular field of medicine. Try to present a more cogent position.

Edited January 19, 2011 by pinko

[bush_cheney2004]

You certainly like going off on a tangent. Here is some information for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Morgentaler

News for you...we have already been over that several times here at MLW.

By the way doctors in any province may opt out of doing abortions. One of my son's specialties is in that particular field of medicine. Try to present a more cogent position.

It doesn't matter if it's abortions, radiology, neonatal care, brain surgery, or imaging....the system you are defending has not and cannot meet the needs of all Canadians in a timely or efficient manner. That's why it is called "wait time".

The way provinces deal with the "crisis" today is to use external services and facilities.