Individual Liberty

[August1991]

I have been travelling in the US for the past few days and I have been thinking of Europe, and Canada.

We are all western societies but America respects individual freedom best. Or maybe Americans exercise their individual freedoms most.

The hallmark of Western Civilization is individual liberty. From a 17th century Galileo to a 20th century Madonna, in the West, individuals are free to choose. And the US is the hallmark of Western Civilization.

----

I fear various recent attempts (in the past century or so) at collective choice or equality. They are retrograde. Like the medieval Catholic church, these so-called progressives want to impose the tyranny of the majority. In the name of fairness, modern socialists and leftists want to subjugate individuals.

I trust Americans to know better. In the past few days, I am heartened to see how ordinary Americans defend and simply understand or exercise individual liberty. From what I see, Americans have a country - that happens to have a government.

Edited January 1, 2011 by August1991

[Jack Weber]

Perhaps you should move there...

If you want to be historically ironic about the whole thing,might I suggest South Carolina.But,just a word of caution,don't bring up the name of William Tecumseh Sherman...

Bad memories of standing up to those tyrannical Yankees...

Tell them you're a fan of Edmund Ruffin and Sir Francis Marion...

Edited January 1, 2011 by Jack Weber

[August1991]

Perhaps you should move there...

I have no desire to live in the US. The food is awful.

If you want to be historically ironic about the whole thing,might I suggest South Carolina.But,just a word of caution,don't bring up the name of William Tecumseh Sherman...

I am not in South Carolina now; I'm in Alabama, on the coast. (This southern US has been a recent discovery for me.)

Walking around a Walmart in Mississippi, I saw no black people - only fat white people. But then I saw a fat-assed black woman pushing a cart. Employee? No, a customer. And then I saw more "African Americans".

Jack, William Tecumseh Sherman is part of history and true, Southerners (like Quebecers) have a sense of inferiority. But America, and the American South, are well beyond anything that I have seen elsewhere in the world.

In America, in the 21st century, individuals are most likely free to choose.

----

Any child of mixed parentage can live freely in America. Around the world, all such children see Obama and know where they want to live.

Edited January 1, 2011 by August1991

[August1991]

I guess one point of my OP is that we in the West rely on Americans. For example, we Canadians can live freely and experiment foolishly with socialism because ordinary Americans assume the cost of liberty.

But a greater point is that I am impressed with ordinary Americans, and how they manage their lives.

[bloodyminded]

I have been travelling in the US for the past few days and I have been thinking of Europe, and Canada.

We are all western societies but America respects individual freedom best. Or maybe Americans exercise their individual freedoms most.

The hallmark of Western Civilization is individual liberty. From a 17th century Galileo to a 20th century Madonna, in the West, individuals are free to choose. And the US is the hallmark of Western Civilization.

----

I fear various recent attempts (in the past century or so) at collective choice or equality. They are retrograde. Like the medieval Catholic church, these so-called progressives want to impose the tyranny of the majority. In the name of fairness, modern socialists and leftists want to subjugate individuals.

I trust Americans to know better. In the past few days, I am heartened to see how ordinary Americans defend and simply understand or exercise individual liberty. From what I see, Americans have a country - that happens to have a government.

Individual liberty has certainly been a crucial component of the American experiment; they still have the best legal guarantees of free speech on the planet. That is, while living day-to-day in Canada, you wouldn't even notice the restrictions, they do exist, and are occasionally used against people.

However, individual liberty is fragile, and Americans are also subjected to draconian government. For example, the massive government eavesdropping program, a thoroughly bipartisan affair, is at odds with your (to be frank) platitudinous and empty adoration.

Becvause, in fact, it is plain as day that Americans don't "know better."

What is also plain is that the only ones to be complaining about this authoritarian practice are the "modern leftists"; not the Obama-lovers, but the farther left.

Given your stated admiraiton for liberty, you should be grateful to these leftists as the only vocal Americans who even seem to recognize this issue. It is not "the left" who are restricitng freedoms; it is the Centre and the Right who are attacking them, with the Left taking the principled stance for freedom from government authoritarianism.

Similarly, it is the Centre and the Right who consider Wikileaks to be "treasonous" [sic], with the left defending more accountability in government matters, whether Democrat or Republican.

[Bonam]

Given your stated admiraiton for liberty, you should be grateful to these leftists as the only vocal Americans who even seem to recognize this issue. It is not "the left" who are restricitng freedoms; it is the Centre and the Right who are attacking them, with the Left taking the principled stance for freedom from government authoritarianism.

The "right" has plenty of its own "extreme" that also oppose authoritarianism and big government, namely libertarians, objectivists, and the like.

Anyway I tend to agree with august, it is not so much the government as the attitude you commonly hear from people. When something is broken or not working right in Canada, I almost universally hear things like "when are they going to fix it", with the "they" remaining oddly unspecified and yet all too clear. Don't hear that much in the states, I even had someone jump on me for saying that and declare that such a statement is a "Canadianism".

[bloodyminded]

The "right" has plenty of its own "extreme" that also oppose authoritarianism and big government, namely libertarians, objectivists, and the like.

No question about it. But they have remained conveniently silent, it seems to me, when "big government" policies align with their own views: say, warrantless eavesdropping; or the outright propaganda offensive in the run-up to the Iraq War (as exposed by the New York Times). Certainly "big government" intiatives.

Anyway I tend to agree with august, it is not so much the government as the attitude you commonly hear from people. When something is broken or not working right in Canada, I almost universally hear things like "when are they going to fix it", with the "they" remaining oddly unspecified and yet all too clear. Don't hear that much in the states, I even had someone jump on me for saying that and declare that such a statement is a "Canadianism".

Well, these are just impressions, and appear biased by the political opininions of the listener; I personally have perceived no such obvious distinction.

Edited January 1, 2011 by bloodyminded

[LonJowett]

I guess one point of my OP is that we in the West rely on Americans. For example, we Canadians can live freely and experiment foolishly with socialism because ordinary Americans assume the cost of liberty.

But a greater point is that I am impressed with ordinary Americans, and how they manage their lives.

I've lived in both countries about equally (20 years in U.S.; 28 years in Canada). They aren't that much different culturally, and the U.S. is in many ways as "socialist" as Canada.

The truth is they are both very similary right-wing democracies.

And you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

[bloodyminded]

I've lived in both countries about equally (20 years in U.S.; 28 years in Canada). They aren't that much different culturally, and the U.S. is in many ways as "socialist" as Canada.

The truth is they are both very similary right-wing democracies.

And you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Exactly. The differences are more in the way people (on the offense or the defense) talk about the differences, then in the actual lived reality.

Edited January 1, 2011 by bloodyminded

[DrGreenthumb]

ok so the country that imprisons more of its citizens per capita than any other country in the world including CHina respects individual Liberty the most?? OK not sure I follow that logic.

[bush_cheney2004]

ok so the country that imprisons more of its citizens per capita than any other country in the world including CHina respects individual Liberty the most?? OK not sure I follow that logic.

Why...it's not complicated?

"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things," Rumsfeld said. "They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things.

[LonJowett]

In some respects Canada is more free than the U.S.

As a born and bred U.S. citizen, I have to file a return with the IRS every year, even though I live and make all my money in Canada. Canada doesn't force its ex-patriot citizens to do the same.

[Moonlight Graham]

Exactly. The differences are more in the way people (on the offense or the defense) talk about the differences, then in the actual lived reality.

bullcrap. Americans tend to feverishly fight/defend their liberties moreso than Canadians. Re: the history of both countries.

It would take a heck of a lot to move Canadians to start a "tea party" movement like in the US. We are a bit more docile lot, more content to depend on government to do what's best for us and less eager to rise up and demand change. This quite bothers me about my countrymen.

On the plus side, our docility has led us to be a more peace-loving/less violent bunch than our southern friends.

[LonJowett]

On the plus side, our docility has led us to be a more peace-loving/less violent bunch than our southern friends.

bullcrap. Canadians are just as "violent" and there are just as many folks who hate paying taxes.

[Moonlight Graham]

bullcrap. Canadians are just as "violent" and there are just as many folks who hate paying taxes.

Wrong on both counts. Ridiculous actually.

What possible empirical evidence and/or logical could you use to defend both of these claims?

Edited January 2, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[Shwa]

I have been travelling in the US for the past few days and I have been thinking of Europe, and Canada.

We are all western societies but America respects individual freedom best. Or maybe Americans exercise their individual freedoms most.

The hallmark of Western Civilization is individual liberty. From a 17th century Galileo to a 20th century Madonna, in the West, individuals are free to choose. And the US is the hallmark of Western Civilization.

----

Hmmmm... a little de Tocqueville reflection going on perhaps?

I fear various recent attempts (in the past century or so) at collective choice or equality. They are retrograde.

So when individuals - who are free to choose - make the choice to act as an incorporated collective or to address equality collectively, they are somehow now bad - or "retrograde" for exercising their freedom of choice?

Like the medieval Catholic church, these so-called progressives want to impose the tyranny of the majority. In the name of fairness, modern socialists and leftists want to subjugate individuals.

Isn't equating the Catholic Church and so-called progressives, kind of like equating apples and oranges? Because what it appears you are saying is that the "modern socialists and leftists" (at least in this country) - you know, those folks who came up with medicare, welfare, social assistance and affirmative actions programs - to mention a few - designed these programs to ensure the avoidance the tyranny of the majority. So what it sounds like you are saying is that those people - who wish to avoid the tyranny of the majority - themselves make up the majority so they have to somehow resist themselves because of their tyranny of wanting to avoid the tyranny of the majority?

I trust Americans to know better. In the past few days, I am heartened to see how ordinary Americans defend and simply understand or exercise individual liberty. From what I see, Americans have a country - that happens to have a government.

Romance is a nice genre so long as you don't hold the condition to be true in all circumstances. Otherwise you risk the story turning tragic pretty quickly. But it's your choice.

[wyly]

bullcrap. Canadians are just as "violent" and there are just as many folks who hate paying taxes.

I guess you don't need brains to comment in online forums.

[bloodyminded]

bullcrap. Americans tend to feverishly fight/defend their liberties moreso than Canadians. Re: the history of both countries.

This is not, however, apparent in the day-to-day life of the citizens, who tend to be quite docile and credulous to power...as much so in the US as in Canada.

It would take a heck of a lot to move Canadians to start a "tea party" movement like in the US.

The Tea Party movement has some populist impulses, but it's hardly a rebellion. Its spokespeople are the political and business elite...the ruling class!

Or do you honerstly believe that Rand Paul and Sarah Palin are "rogue outsiders" fighting this entity called "Washington"?

"Running against Washington" is one of the oldest, dishonest campaign myths in the history of US politics. Everybody is forever "running against Washington insiders."

You did note, I hope, that even as Palin (accurately) mocked the "Hope and Change" campaign, she and MCain were running on an identical type of soundbyte? (I can scarcely fathom how anyone didn't notice!)

Hell, the tea-partiers think Obama is a "socialist" and that this time--finally--conservative politicians and businessmen are going to fight for their liberty against the threat of a socialist president and the immigrant hordes....

Christ, these people are obedient, servile.

Their anger and frustration is genuine, it's sincere (if misdirected), and they have good cause to be upset.

But they believe the propaganda instilled by their Masters, and they have been co-opted by the already-existing ruling class. It'd be funny if it weren't a tragic farce.

We are a bit more docile lot, more content to depend on government to do what's best for us and less eager to rise up and demand change. This quite bothers me about my countrymen.

On the plus side, our docility has led us to be a more peace-loving/less violent bunch than our southern friends.

That's another issue, and it's not so clear. Domestically, we're just as violent, albeit without the murder rate...but assaults, violent sex crimes, etc are on par. Internationally, Canada is a violent, imperial-minded nation. (Not plainly an imperialist power, but eager to profit from the methodology.) We're just slightly more hypocritical about that unfortunate fact than is the U.S.

Edited January 2, 2011 by bloodyminded

[dre]

bullcrap. Americans tend to feverishly fight/defend their liberties moreso than Canadians. Re: the history of both countries.

It would take a heck of a lot to move Canadians to start a "tea party" movement like in the US. We are a bit more docile lot, more content to depend on government to do what's best for us and less eager to rise up and demand change. This quite bothers me about my countrymen.

On the plus side, our docility has led us to be a more peace-loving/less violent bunch than our southern friends.

I think both Canadians and Americans are fairly docile when it comes to standing up to government attempts to infringe on personal freedom, and your characterization of Europeans is way off. North Americans tend to whine about actions by the government they dont like, but in various European countries Iv seen massive general strikes, and in some cases the mob will literally take to the streets and start burning the country down. I was in Athens earlier this year and witnessed this first hand.

Its probably just because Americans have had so much easy living for so long... they seem unable to say "enough is enough". For whatever reason we have become very easy for the government to placate and control, and our governments routinely do things that the vast majority of us dont want them to do, with no real opposition beyond a bit of pissing and moaning.

The Tea Party is actually a good example of what I mentioned. Compare these guys to the ORIGIONAL TeaParty... those guys put their asses on the line and staged a real tax revolt. The new "tea pary light" movement invovles no real personal risk at all. You could hardly even call it an act of government defiance. They wont stage a REAL tax revolt because they are terrified of what the government would do to them if they did.

[August1991]

When something is broken or not working right in Canada, I almost universally hear things like "when are they going to fix it", with the "they" remaining oddly unspecified and yet all too clear. Don't hear that much in the states, I even had someone jump on me for saying that and declare that such a statement is a "Canadianism".

It is an old pastime for a Canadian to make comparisons between Americans and Canadians so I guess I'll pursue this angle.

I agree, Bonam. Canadians are quick to expect the government to solve some problem. This is very true in Quebec where the Quebec government has replaced the Catholic Church as the protector of the French Fact in North America.

[bloodyminded]

I agree, Bonam. Canadians are quick to expect the government to solve some problem.

Perhaps you two are speaking for yourselves.

Some of us don't feel the need to look to the government all the time.

[August1991]

Isn't equating the Catholic Church and so-called progressives, kind of like equating apples and oranges? Because what it appears you are saying is that the "modern socialists and leftists" (at least in this country) - you know, those folks who came up with medicare, welfare, social assistance and affirmative actions programs - to mention a few - designed these programs to ensure the avoidance the tyranny of the majority.

Those programmes are just that: examples of the tyranny of teh majority.

The individual is not free to opt out of welfare or medicare. In Canada, it is illegal in many cases to hire a private doctor.

Leftists would argue that this restriction on liberty is for a greater good but I wonder about that in the long run. Most attempts or experiments in collective choice have eventually run amok.

[Wilber]

Wrong on both counts. Ridiculous actually.

What possible empirical evidence and/or logical could you use to defend both of these claims?

Well 700,000 people in BC signed a petition protesting a tax and as a result there will be a referendum on the tax and the Premier was forced to resign.

[dre]

When something is broken or not working right in Canada, I almost universally hear things like "when are they going to fix it", with the "they" remaining oddly unspecified and yet all too clear. Don't hear that much in the states, I even had someone jump on me for saying that and declare that such a statement is a "Canadianism".

Funny my experience (i live half there and half here) is the exact opposite. I hear people whining for the government down there to fix healthcare, social security, the national debt, protect them from the big bad "terrorists, communists, socialists, drugs, criminals, gangsters etc".

[Michael Hardner]

Those programmes are just that: examples of the tyranny of teh majority.

The individual is not free to opt out of welfare or medicare. In Canada, it is illegal in many cases to hire a private doctor.

Leftists would argue that this restriction on liberty is for a greater good but I wonder about that in the long run. Most attempts or experiments in collective choice have eventually run amok.

It's about compacts and guilds, August. Many people seem to resent it when "the people" form them, yet are unaware about how easy it is for large companies to do the same.