What is the logic in training the Afghan troops?

[M.Dancer]

So him having dinner at the Pentagon with US officials does not strike you as questionable?

I think you are the one who has been distracted and deceived.

Of course it strikes me a questionable. But what are the questions?

I think all of the relevant questions can be moned from this bit...

Apparently, none of the FBI's information about Awlaki was shared with the Pentagon₁. Former Army Secretary Tommy White, who led the Army in 2001, said he doesn't have any recollection of the luncheon or any contact with Awlaki.

"If this was a luncheon at the Office of Government Counsel, I would not necessarily be there," he said.

The Pentagon has offered no explanation of how a man, now on the CIA kills or capture list, ended up at a special lunch for Muslim outreach.

After repeated requests for comment on the vetting process beginning on October 13th, an Army spokesman insisted Wednesday that the lunch was not an Army event. "The Army has found no evidence that the Army either sponsored or participated in the event described in this report,²" spokesman Thomas Collins said.

Collins also noted that the FBI document referred to the Office of Government Counsel but should read Office of General Counsel.

And again,does it have anything to do with the claimthat the USA created Aq?

No....

1) Why doesn't the FBI share this kind of information

2) How is it there is no record of the Army participating, Did it happen or not? Was the army involved or another body?

Edited November 23, 2010 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

All borders are artificial

[Guest TrueMetis]

Perhaps not as much better as we might hope:

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20101122/afghan-converts-trial-delayed-faces-possible-death-penalty/

Link doesn't work.

[M.Dancer]

Worked for me...

The trial of an Afghan convert to Christianity was delayed from Sunday to possibly as early as sometime this week, depending on when officers figure out how to judge the case.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Worked for me...

It's working for me now to, must be my crappy internet. And what's in the report really sucks.

[Moonlight Graham]

the US funded and equiped the mujahideen, the same people who formed AQ-osama...it seemed like a good idea at the time as the mujahideen were focused on the russians, once the russian were run out of afghanistan the next target became the USA and it's 51st state Israel...

Even if the US did help fund/equip the mujaheddin in the 1980's, it doesn't mean they created al-Qaeda. Bin Laden was already very wealthy, he didn't really need any US money to fund al-Qaeda or Maktab al-Khidamat, its precursor. Other countries such as Saudi Arabia funded the mujaheddin as well. And the common conception that the CIA directly "trained" Bin Laden is very likely false. Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri already were also steeped in their radical Islamist, jihadist ideology, which is IMO the #1 underlying factor in their involvement in the mujaheddin and in the creation of al-Qaeda.

It is better to say that the actions of the US (including their military presence in Saudi Arabia near Mecca and Medina beginning in the first Gulf War, though the Saudi government is also culpable in this as well) were one of the various reasons al-Qaeda came to be, and gave them more reason to spread jihad globally (as did other actors such as Israel as you mentioned).

[Saipan]

USA helped fund/equip the Mujaheddin in the 1980's same way it helped Soviet Union during WW II.

USA also nuked Japan, our close ally. And bombed the scrap out of Germany, our NATO ally.

[GostHacked]

USA helped fund/equip the Mujaheddin in the 1980's same way it helped Soviet Union during WW II.

USA also nuked Japan, our close ally. And bombed the scrap out of Germany, our NATO ally.

I agree with your first part.

But when Japan and Germany were bombed they were not part of NATO at that time.

[Saipan]

But when Japan and Germany were bombed they were not part of NATO at that time.

That is the whole point. Time changes everything.

[GostHacked]

That is the whole point. Time changes everything.

You should have said that even though Japan and Germany were the enemies of the west, the west still played in some part in either financing those two countries, or helping them with certain technologies.

[Saipan]

Yes, that's true.

[wyly]

Even if the US did help fund/equip the mujaheddin in the 1980's, it doesn't mean they created al-Qaeda. Bin Laden was already very wealthy, he didn't really need any US money to fund al-Qaeda or Maktab al-Khidamat, its precursor. Other countries such as Saudi Arabia funded the mujaheddin as well. And the common conception that the CIA directly "trained" Bin Laden is very likely false. Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri already were also steeped in their radical Islamist, jihadist ideology, which is IMO the #1 underlying factor in their involvement in the mujaheddin and in the creation of al-Qaeda.

It is better to say that the actions of the US (including their military presence in Saudi Arabia near Mecca and Medina beginning in the first Gulf War, though the Saudi government is also culpable in this as well) were one of the various reasons al-Qaeda came to be, and gave them more reason to spread jihad globally (as did other actors such as Israel as you mentioned).

they did absolutely create al-qeada....Bin laden's fortune would've dried up very quickly and then disappeared altogether, estimations of USA funding for the mujahideen are between 3-6 billion possibly more...A disproportionate share of U.S. arms went to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, "a particularly fanatical fundamentalist and woman-hater whose followers first gained attention by throwing acid in the faces of women who refused to wear the veil."

and the intelligence and training given to the mujahideen was extensive...

Edited November 24, 2010 by wyly

[Saipan]

and the intellegence and training given to the mujahideen was extensive...

Not as significant as deal between British Prime Minister and Hitler.

[bush_cheney2004]

....It is better to say that the actions of the US (including their military presence in Saudi Arabia near Mecca and Medina beginning in the first Gulf War, though the Saudi government is also culpable in this as well) were one of the various reasons al-Qaeda came to be, and gave them more reason to spread jihad globally (as did other actors such as Israel as you mentioned).

It is even better to say that several nations occupied Saudi areas for GWI at their behest, including Canada's Field Hospital at Al-Qaysumah.

[Army Guy]

WYLY

they did absolutely create al-qeada....

I'd like to call BS on this one, please provide a source...

[wyly]

WYLY

I'd like to call BS on this one, please provide a source...

there are sources everywhere you only need to type in the search...if you aren't aware it's because you don't want to be aware of it...don't take my statement literally, the US didn't create it organizationally, the usa made it's existence possible....

foreign mujahideen fighters were recruited, trained, financed and armed by the US to oppose the USSR involvement in afghanistan, this was not a big secret at the time the CIA's involvement was well known...

the great irony is the soviets were trying to bring afghanistan out of the middle ages, opening schools for girls, emancipation for women, creating a secular government and it was the americans who threw it's support behind fanatic religious fundamentalists, among them Osama...those same fundamentalists supported the Taliban and formed al-qaeda...now here we are 20 years later canadians fighting and dying battling a monster of the USA's creation...

[Saipan]

the great irony is the soviets were trying to bring afghanistan out of the middle ages, opening schools for girls, emancipation for women, creating a secular government

They were trying to enforce Communist dictatorship not secular government. Islamic country IS in Middle Ages by definition.

[Moonlight Graham]

don't take my statement literally, the US didn't create it organizationally, the usa made it's existence possible....

Well then say that! Don't claim that the US "created" al-Qaeda, because everyone knows that's BS. The best anyone can say is that they were partly responsible/influencial, but so were a lot of people/groups/countries.

Also, show me evidence also that the CIA trained OBL? Both OBL and al-Zawahiri deny it, as does the US (duh).

[wyly]

They were trying to enforce Communist dictatorship not secular government. Islamic country IS in Middle Ages by definition.

Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

afghanistan already had a socialist/communist government before the Soviet interventsion at the invitation of the then Afghan government...

Edited November 25, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

Well then say that! Don't claim that the US "created" al-Qaeda, because everyone knows that's BS. The best anyone can say is that they were partly responsible/influencial, but so were a lot of people/groups/countries.

Also, show me evidence also that the CIA trained OBL? Both OBL and al-Zawahiri deny it, as does the US (duh).

I could dumb down my posts for you but why?

[GostHacked]

I could dumb down my posts for you but why?

Sometimes clarity demands simple statements.

[Army Guy]

there are sources everywhere you only need to type in the search...if you aren't aware it's because you don't want to be aware of it...don't take my statement literally, the US didn't create it organizationally, the usa made it's existence possible....

I'm well aware of the sources available, infact before each tour we do get a rather lengthy history course on Afghanistan, as part of our training. But your remarks are misleading to those that do not know the history behind Afghanistans current situation.

The US government did covertly fund and provide some training to mujahideen, which were made up of muslims from around the globe, plus the hundrds of different Afghanis tribes ....Once the Russians were on the way out that funding and training stopped, Unless you can prove other wise. As for you statement of the US making it's existance possiable, it certainily did not fund them, equip them or train them as an organization, it may of provided them with the excuse to come into existance by deploying to Saudi during the Gulf wars, but we could hardly place the blame solely on the US becuase Bin Ladin did not like the fact that US troops were deployed in the same Nation as the 2 Mecas....Thats just crap....

foreign mujahideen fighters were recruited, trained, financed and armed by the US to oppose the USSR involvement in afghanistan, this was not a big secret at the time the CIA's involvement was well known...

You should clear this up alittle to, the US did provide "some" recruiting, training, and wpns to the Mujahideen,you fail to mention that they did target specfic groups within the Mujahideen, but not the entire organization, in fact when you add up the funding coming out of Suadi and other Muslim countries you'll find it dwarfs the US contribution by quite alot....and yet you failed to mention them or place any blame at there doorstep...

the great irony is the soviets were trying to bring afghanistan out of the middle ages, opening schools for girls, emancipation for women, creating a secular government

You have got to be kidding, you you've been watching to many Soviet news reels...Russian Spec ops teams replaced the old Afghanis government by gun piont, actually bullets, they conducted Divisional sized Attacks that razed to the ground huge swaths of Afghanis villiages , towns even cities, killing everything in thier paths...including children, shit they even developed mines that looked like toys....So please lets not assume they where there for humanitarian reasons.

and it was the americans who threw it's support behind fanatic religious fundamentalists, among them Osama...those same fundamentalists supported the Taliban and formed al-qaeda...now here we are 20 years later canadians fighting and dying battling a monster of the USA's creation...

The US did support certain groups within the Mujahideen but not all of them, and yes some of them may have been Isliamic fundamentalists, or held views much different than those normally excepted in the west but they were fighting for there very existance as a people...It should be also noted that alot of the extremist groups would not except aid from the west....

it should also be noted that even with the great military strength of the US or Russia nobody could have predicted how that war would turn out...the all seeing eye has yet to be perfected....

[eyeball]

The US created al Qaeda?

C'mon guys, no matter what the mechanism of injury we all know what it feels like when we get it in the nuts right?

To be just as succinct the US and by association it's allies got caught playing with matches in various places throughout the Muslim world and then tried to put out the fire this started with gasoline. The fire is still burning and the new Afghan army is just a lower grade of gasoline in all.

It's not rocket science, its...arson...geopolitical vandalism.

How does that feel? Consider the fear and loathing that's usually reserved for the sorts of people who start wildfires near residential areas at the peak of a hot dry spell.

[Saipan]

Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

And Communist secularist accomplished that nicely by killing priests and burning churches.

Pretty much like Islam did with Christians, Jews and Buddhists in Afghanistan.

afghanistan already had a socialist/communist government before the Soviet interventsion at the invitation of the then Afghan government...

So did Czechoslovakia when Soviet tanks rolled in. Soviet's figured it was not "secular" enough. As did Mao and Pol Pot.

[capricorn]

Former Liberal leader Stephane Dion questioned Wednesday why Canadian Armed Forces need to train Afghan military to fight the Taliban, when the Afghans were strong enough to defeat the forces of the Soviet Union in the 1980s.

His question was among an array of misgivings about Canada's role in Afghanistan that opposition MPs voiced to top officials from four government departments who testified at the House of Commons special committee on Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

He sought some assurance that training really is necessary in a country where "young people know how to dismantle" AK-47 automatic weapons and put them back together.

He expressed concern that some trained Afghan army members don't stay long, some defect to the Taliban and "they don't want really to fight" the insurgency.

"After all, we are speaking about people that have been able to win against the Soviet Union," he said. "If they were willing to win against the Taliban they would not need so much training ... How come those people who won against the Soviet Union need training?"

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Afghans+need+training+Dion/3882173/story.html

It seems Dion is one Liberal Ignatieff could not convince about the worthiness of the training initiative.