Liberalism and its inevitable demise

[eyeball]

I assure you... that in a thousand years liberals and conservatives will still be quite alive and well, and probably having this exact same argument.

I bet it goes even further than that, I wouldn't be surprised if this ancient dichotomy is to evolved civilization as hyrdogen is to the universe. It's probably as ubiquitous as gravity.

[Moonlight Graham]

Liberalism and conservatism is a personal choice, and most of us are composites that include one and the other.

There is a distinct difference between different political meanings of "liberalism", the 2 most common being that the liberal/conservative variety, meaning "progressive, open to new ideas, tolerant of others etc.", and the more classic meaning of "liberalism" of the Locke/Rousseau variety, meaning literally "liberty", or "individual freedoms and equal rights".

[BubberMiley]

That Jesus Christ guy invented liberalism with all his talk of turning the other "cheek". I would blame him for all this progressivism. I agree with Betsy that Islam is correct in its lack of tolerance of others.

[Michael Hardner]

But the real point is that those ideologies are not absolute theyre relative and reactionary. Both conservatives and liberals believe different things today than they did a hundred years ago. Both have had to evolve to remain relevant. To predict the "demise" of either shows a total lack of understanding about what the ideological political spectrum IS and how it works.

I guarantee you that liberals and conservatives will exist as long as human civilization does. Theyll just be squabbling over different things. Liberals will still be advocating a wreckless march forward and conservatives will still be trying to put on the breaks, regardless of what the point of reference is.

Well said, and well thought out !

[Oleg Bach]

If evil and stupidity are kin..and liberalism simply does not believe that anything is evil..then in our liberal democracy we are doomed to a gradual and inevitable demise...cos some things are simply bad for human health...and the wages of sinisterism is death as they say.

What is at the core of liberal rot is the act and policy of de-maning men - feminization of males at an early age - and the foolish idea that a MAN - or to be a MAN is to be some angry raging bull that destroys all and is responsible for all war...I put it to you that rea MEN - are good men and they guard against violence and stop wars from happening - and they PROTECT children - and they PROTECT woman..but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...liberals what us to be un-protected so they can f**k us at will...I will be happy when all the liberals either perish - or just become smiling towel boys at the spaw who dress as hipsters..how have no priciples and probably will bear no off spring - In time liberalism will go the way of extinction ...because it is a mindset that is not wise enough to surive.

[bloodyminded]

If evil and stupidity are kin..and liberalism simply does not believe that anything is evil..then in our liberal democracy we are doomed to a gradual and inevitable demise...cos some things are simply bad for human health...and the wages of sinisterism is death as they say.

What is at the core of liberal rot is the act and policy of de-maning men - feminization of males at an early age - and the foolish idea that a MAN - or to be a MAN is to be some angry raging bull that destroys all and is responsible for all war...I put it to you that rea MEN - are good men and they guard against violence and stop wars from happening - and they PROTECT children - and they PROTECT woman..but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...liberals what us to be un-protected so they can f**k us at will...I will be happy when all the liberals either perish - or just become smiling towel boys at the spaw who dress as hipsters..how have no priciples and probably will bear no off spring - In time liberalism will go the way of extinction ...because it is a mindset that is not wise enough to surive.

You have now accomplished the astonishing feat of making the OP look sober and insightful by comparison. Betsy owes you a high-five; or perhaps she should curtsy, ladylike, for your pleasure.

[The_Squid]

Liberalism believes and enforce that every culture and religious belief must be equally tolerated and accepted, and that no moral values/culture be deemed superior and imposed over others.

What a ridiculous notion. Liberalism has no such tenet.

[Jack Weber]

Betsy wants the Catholic Church to decide what is and isn't moral, righteous, and acceptable in Canadian society.

I'm Protestant...

I don't want the Catholic Church deciding anything for me at all....

[Moonlight Graham]

There is a distinct difference between different political meanings of "liberalism", the 2 most common being that the liberal/conservative variety, meaning "progressive, open to new ideas, tolerant of others etc.", and the more classic meaning of "liberalism" of the Locke/Rousseau variety, meaning literally "liberty", or "individual freedoms and equal rights".

Oh, and the 3rd major political meaning of "liberalism" would be as a theory of "international relations".

I don't like the term "liberal" or "liberalism" because of its multiple meaning, which is easily confused. I see the OP using the term "liberalism" to mean the classic Locke/Rousseau/Hobbes variety, ie: "individual freedoms and equal rights". Some seem to be confused.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[BubberMiley]

I see the OP using the term "liberalism" to mean the classic Locke/Rousseau/Hobbes variety, ie: "individual freedoms and equal rights". Some seem to be confused.

I see the OP using the term "liberalism" to mean the opposite of what she agrees with. She seems to be confused.

[betsy]

Why do you keep repeating this? Its a brown bag full of horse-shit thats already burning on your doorstep.

Liberals have been imposing their own values on others since the beginning of time.

ON OTHERS! But not on those who show aggression and capability of extreme violence! Like the radical Islam!

THAT IS my point!

Have the liberals who bravely marched everywhere burning effigies and chanting insults to various political figures such as the Pope, George Bush, Harper etc.., burnt an effigy of any prominent radical Muslim such as the Iranian president as an example, in protest for the treatment of women? ESPECIALLY women who have been executed, murdered or about to be executed?

Let's face it, when it comes to squaring off with radical Islam, liberal activists and politicians are all walking on eggshells....their protests comes out like a mere sqawk, hardly ever heard....

If this is an example of how the liberals react and "impose" their values in THEIR OWN SOIL....it doesn't require a stretch of imagination what happens if there ever comes a time when an aggressive radical group such as radical Islam becomes too powerful and decides to aggressively impose FULLY its own values and way of life.

Which values do you think will be repressed....and die?

[betsy]

This entire premise is just obejctively false. Why dont you tell us what it is you would like to see done about the oppression of gays and women in Islam, so that theres a substantive point to debate instead of this hogwash?

How about a strong protest? The same kind of protests against the Pope....George Bush....Harper..

Even when the Canadian journalist woman named Kusemi (?) who was tortured and died in Iran, I don't think I've seen hundreds of marchers burning effigies and hurling insults to Iran.

Now, there's a woman waiting execution....and so far the only protest I know is the gathering of signatures! Why not make a strong statement?

Thats an outrageous claim that requires evidence. I know muslim women here in the west and Id hazard to guess that theyre lives ARE VERY MUCH DIFFERENT than those of their counterparts in conservative orthodox muslim nations.

You know Muslim women.....you'd hazard to guess????

And you call that evidence??? Now, that is pure hogwash!

Why should your guess be even mentioned in this discussion?

On the other hand I've heard from those who should know....like Tareq Fatah, and from muslim women too, who say that there is coercion done on some Muslim women living in the west to adhere to the old ways!

Edited November 20, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

I'm Protestant...

I don't want the Catholic Church deciding anything for me at all....

And I am not a Catholic too.

[betsy]

Liberalism is about equal rights, but it is also about individual rights/freedoms. There is a dichotomy within the ideology of liberalism, a struggle between the equality of people vs protecting individual rights.

We live in liberal democracies, and we must decide the rules we live by and what rights to protect. At some point, we must chose which rights go above others. Does the right of a person to murder whomever they want go above the right of people to be free from violence? No. We take away a murderers rights, and lock them in jail to protect other people's rights which we judge as more important and more to the benefit of society.

We have a problem today where many people do not see that we still must judge other cultures/religions that value actions which infringe on an individual's liberty/rights which we have already established as vital to our society. Liberalism is NOT about believing that every culture/religion should be equally tolerated. I would think it's clear for those living in Canada or the US that freedom of a person to practice a religion/culture that believes in raping one's own babies and grandparents, and then eating their genitals, would be against other individual rights we would judge important to the betterment of society.

But this doesn't seem clear to many. ALL rights cannot be protected under liberalism because some contradict each other, as they always have. We who live in liberal democracies must continue to make judgment calls on which rights trump others. This is not always easy, but it must be done.

It is the "judgement call" on which rights trump others that I am talking about here. From what I observe, the capability for extreme aggression by radical Islam is prompting that "judgement call" by the liberal society to have Islam trump the rights of others.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's face it, when it comes to squaring off with radical Islam, liberal activists and politicians are all walking on eggshells....their protests comes out like a mere sqawk, hardly ever heard....

Betsy, you're just fighting with a bogeyman here.

How do you know how liberal protesters feel about Islam ? These are just steroetypes. The reality is likely far more complex than a cartoon of hippies embracing Muslims.

Of course religious tolerance has a difficult grey area, wherein we have to tolerate philosophies that regard women as unclean, for example, or decy homosexuality, or worship holy books that calls for their death.

But these questions have been answered, and dialogue, moderation and tolerance takes us forward.