Before Moving To Canada....

[GostHacked]

...because this is a Canadian joint.

What? No 'ya but it's hosted on a Texan server' ????

"That's sad" is so....Canadian ... and funny!

What is sad, is that the same problem exists in the US as well, wether you want to admit it or not.

[bush_cheney2004]

What? No 'ya but it's hosted on a Texan server' ????

No..this thread is about moving to Canada, not Texas.

What is sad, is that the same problem exists in the US as well, wether you want to admit it or not.

Americans know who they are...no need for "not Canadian" as an identity crisis. Their labels reflect what they are...not what they are not....see the difference?

Edited December 3, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

No..this thread is about moving to Canada, not Texas.

Americans know who they are...no need for "not Canadian" as an identity crisis. Their labels reflect what they are...not what they are not....see the difference?

Not all americans know who they are .. african-american!!! And you are critisizing me for derailing a thread? Mastercard Priceless.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not all americans know who they are .. african-american!!! And you are critisizing me for derailing a thread? Mastercard Priceless.

Nope...you are just chum for my post count.

[Moonlight Graham]

No..this thread is about moving to Canada, not Texas.

If that lady in the OP doesn't like it in Canada she is free to move to Texas.

[Guest American Woman]

It seems as if a lot of people are missing the point of the OP. She admits she was fed up with the U.S. and therefore moved to Canada, expecting to find it as so many Canadians try so hard to portray it -- as a kinder, gentler, more caring/tolerant nation. And she found it wasn't true. She didn't expect to be loved just because she was an American; what she expected was not to be criticized and met with contempt just because she was an American. In other words, the reality is quite different from the myth.

So all this 'America is this, that, or the other thing et al' has nothing to do with anything as it's Canada's/Canadians' reality vs. how it's portrayed that's the issue. Americans don't make the claims that so many Canadians do.

Furthermore, I can't understand why Texas is often mentioned with such contempt. I'm guessing people who make such comments have never actually been there and haven't experienced the hospitality that so many Texans offer. There's a lot of ignorance in this world, and the internet all too often seems to be a means to perpetuate it.

Canadians' smug anti-Americanism says a lot more about them than it does Canadians* Americans. And I agree with the author. Anyone moving to Canada expecting life to be better than it is in the States will likely be disappointed.

*Edited to fix error.

Edited December 4, 2010 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

It seems as if a lot of people are missing the point of the OP. She admits she was fed up with the U.S. and therefore moved to Canada, expecting to find it as so many Canadians try so hard to portray it -- as a kinder, gentler, more caring/tolerant nation. And she found it wasn't true. She didn't expect to be loved just because she was an American; what she expected was not to be criticized and met with contempt just because she was an American. In other words, the reality is quite different from the myth.

Well it is something I've noticed since I was a kid. When you have a noisy neighbor that gets into everyone else's business, mostly for their means, you start to get a different view of that neighbor. They claim A, we see B. It's happened before. And this is where the bashing comes from. The media helps reinforce those stereotypes or someone's view of another country on the whole.

So all this 'America is this, that, or the other thing et al' has nothing to do with anything as it's Canada's/Canadians' reality vs. how it's portrayed that's the issue. Americans don't make the claims that so many Canadians do.

Maybe not the claims about Canadians, but mention Muslims ......

Furthermore, I can't understand why Texas is often mentioned with such contempt. I'm guessing people who make such comments have never actually been there and haven't experienced the hospitality that so many Texans offer. There's a lot of ignorance in this world, and the internet all too often seems to be a means to perpetuate it.

Personally, I think Texas is a fantastic state, never been, but I've talked to some from Texas and they are great people. And the Texas bit is really about the MLW site hosted on a server based in Texas. We've seen that batted around a few times. Like why talk about Canada in a US politics topic when it is a Canadian forums board hosted in the US. Is that what is called juxtaposition?

Canadians' smug anti-Americanism says a lot more about them than it does Canadians.

I think I know what you meant by this statement. But the way you worded it, is .. what?

[Guest American Woman]

Well it is something I've noticed since I was a kid. When you have a noisy neighbor that gets into everyone else's business, mostly for their means, you start to get a different view of that neighbor. They claim A, we see B. It's happened before. And this is where the bashing comes from. The media helps reinforce those stereotypes or someone's view of another country on the whole.

The media does "help," as does the internet. No one ever claimed the media was above reproach. I think the media has become more a source of entertainment than a source of accurate news reporting. Furthermore, what you "notice" isn't necessarily the way things are.

“Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.” Benjamin Franklin

Furthermore, how much can you actually "see" for yourself? There are fifty states, 300 million Americans. As for the "mostly for their means," if you don't think that applies to every nation, think again. Canada's government acts on Canada's behalf. France's on France's behalf. England's on England's behalf. If your government isn't acting on Canadians' behalf, you best elect a new government. But have no fear. It most definitely is, and if that means supporting actions of the U.S., then that's what's done. And I'm guessing you're intelligent enough to realize that Canada/Canadians have benefitted from the very actions some Canadians love to criticize -- as they enjoy the benefits. Canada is no different/better than the U.S. or any other nation. That's the point being made.

Yet so many Canadians claim to be oh-so-tolerant, and therefore end up "tolerating" the intolerable. I think if a lot of Americans are Ugly, a similar percentage of Canadians, Brits, Aussies, whatever, are just as Ugly. But one difference is the U.S. is a superpower, with 300 million people, and with that comes some resentment and feelings of 'holier than thou' to make it feel better. It's often a natural human inclination to 'hate the man at the top.' We can accept it if we convince ourselves our lives are so much better. But in the end, we're all just people living in countries that all basically act the same way for the same reasons.

So Canada's superior tolerance/love/caring/acceptance isn't the reality. It's a myth. And that's the point of the OP. The Canadians I'm speaking of go out of their way to judge an American just for being an American, while they go out of their way to excuse just about any other behavior. Their "tolerance" and understanding is selective, as they pat themselves on the back. And again, I'm not referring to the whole country/all Canadians by any means. But the myth of "lovable Canada/Canadians" is a myth, and again, that's the point of the OP.

Maybe not the claims about Canadians, but mention Muslims ......

I honestly don't know what you're saying here.

Personally, I think Texas is a fantastic state, never been, but I've talked to some from Texas and they are great people. And the Texas bit is really about the MLW site hosted on a server based in Texas. We've seen that batted around a few times. Like why talk about Canada in a US politics topic when it is a Canadian forums board hosted in the US. Is that what is called juxtaposition?

I obviously took the reference in the wrong context.

I think I know what you meant by this statement. But the way you worded it, is .. what?

I guess errors like that are a good reason to proof-read. I've already made the correction.

[dizzy]

It seems as if a lot of people are missing the point of the OP. She admits she was fed up with the U.S. and therefore moved to Canada, expecting to find it as so many Canadians try so hard to portray it -- as a kinder, gentler, more caring/tolerant nation. And she found it wasn't true. She didn't expect to be loved just because she was an American; what she expected was not to be criticized and met with contempt just because she was an American. In other words, the reality is quite different from the myth.

So all this 'America is this, that, or the other thing et al' has nothing to do with anything as it's Canada's/Canadians' reality vs. how it's portrayed that's the issue. Americans don't make the claims that so many Canadians do.

Furthermore, I can't understand why Texas is often mentioned with such contempt. I'm guessing people who make such comments have never actually been there and haven't experienced the hospitality that so many Texans offer. There's a lot of ignorance in this world, and the internet all too often seems to be a means to perpetuate it.

Canadians' smug anti-Americanism says a lot more about them than it does Canadians. And I agree with the author. Anyone moving to Canada expecting life to be better than it is in the States will likely be disappointed.

I'd certainly agree with your assessment of Texans. I spent some time in San Antonio and have met a fair number of them in Afghanistan. They are quite hospitable and gracious.

But I think you also highlight The writer's problem. There are a lot of americans who have the same two-dimensional view of Texans as the one you've seen here. Like them, she is confusing a nation's political stance with it's people. For instance, while I recognize that the US is a powerful and innovative country, most americans I've met embody neither (in the sense that they're living moderately productive lives that look much like those in any other western democracy). Further, I get ribbed all of the time by my many of my american friends and family, who hold some fairly two-dimensional views of our healthcare, lack of military might, canadian obsessive politeness, etc. Should I ever decide to move to the US, I'll be prepared for more of the same, for the following reasons:

1. It's part of my due diligence to understand the mindset of a group of people before I choose to spend a chunk of my life with them.

2. I know something this woman doesn't, that cross border ribbing is an international hobby. It's not unique to Canada and the US.

[Guest American Woman]

I'd certainly agree with your assessment of Texans. I spent some time in San Antonio and have met a fair number of them in Afghanistan. They are quite hospitable and gracious.

I've never been to San Antonio but would love to go there some day. But I agree. Many Texans are quite hospitable and gracious. As a side note, when were you in Afghanistan? Were you/are you in the service?

But I think you also highlight The writer's problem. There are a lot of americans who have the same two-dimensional view of Texans as the one you've seen here. Like them, she is confusing a nation's political stance with it's people. For instance, while I recognize that the US is a powerful and innovative country, most americans I've met embody neither (in the sense that they're living moderately productive lives that look much like those in any other western democracy).

She's referring to the people, though. She's referring to how she's perceived/treated by a lot of Canadians. So she's not confusing anything that I can see.

Further, I get ribbed all of the time by my many of my american friends and family, who hold some fairly two-dimensional views of our healthcare, lack of military might, canadian obsessive politeness, etc. Should I ever decide to move to the US, I'll be prepared for more of the same, for the following reasons:

1. It's part of my due diligence to understand the mindset of a group of people before I choose to spend a chunk of my life with them.

2. I know something this woman doesn't, that cross border ribbing is an international hobby. It's not unique to Canada and the US.

There's a huge difference between "ribbing" and "anti-Americanism," and it's the latter that she's referring to. The first is playful kidding, the second is contempt based solely on nationality. And if the same sentiment were directed to anyone from any other country, it would be seen for what it is. It's prejudice, based solely on nationality.

[bush_cheney2004]

....There's a huge difference between "ribbing" and "anti-Americanism," and it's the latter that she's referring to. The first is playful kidding, the second is contempt based solely on nationality. And if the same sentiment were directed to anyone from any other country, it would be seen for what it is. It's prejudice, based solely on nationality.

Agreed....this is her well stated dichotomy. Some Canadians choose to brag about their extreme tolerance and multiculturalism, yet reserve and accept a special contempt for Americans....just for being American. The oft repeated explanantion of "US government policies" vs. individual US citizens is quickly lost, and I have found here at MLW that turnabout is not considered fair play, because Canadian government policies and screw-ups are smaller in scale.

Even more insightful is her description of the resentment born from economic integration and export dependence on those "arrogant Americans", consumption of American media (by choice), and the American indifference to Canada's "moral plight" living next to a belligerent elephant that it needs and loathes at the same time.

[dre]

I spend about 3 months a year in the US, and I dont see any noticable difference between Americans and Canadians in terms of tolerance or politeness. In fact... unless they have a noticable accent I dont think theres any noticable difference at all when it comes to casual meat-n-greet contact.

But my opinion is as useless and anecdotal as the OP.

I think the stereo type Americans are stuck with comes mostly from their government and media. Those are the too biggest factors. Most people get the most exposure to America on the television, from American entertainment, or news stories about the US government. The US government and media "represent" America on the global stage and they dont paint a flattering picture. The US government is not very popular... not in the US and not in the rest of world either.

If you watch CNN or FOX or American TV, you would swear that every single person in America must be an abject retard. Before I got rid of cable TV there was literally 30 channels packed full of Americans acting bizzare, and goofy, many of them packed with violence and so on.

Your average American is really just a typical westerner. Same type of people you find in Canada or anywhere else.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I think the stereo type Americans are stuck with comes mostly from their government and media. Those are the too biggest factors. Most people get the most exposure to America on the television, from American entertainment, or news stories about the US government. The US government and media "represent" America on the global stage and they dont paint a flattering picture....

American television is produced by and large for Americans.....nobody thinks to ask if it has enough "American content" to pass muster by the culture police, let alone if the image is flattering enough. Further...it is unclear to me why so much American content is devoured internationally...I mean...is Gilligan's Island still interesting when dubbed in Greek after almost 50 years?

Edited December 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[dizzy]

I've never been to San Antonio but would love to go there some day. But I agree. Many Texans are quite hospitable and gracious. As a side note, when were you in Afghanistan? Were you/are you in the service?

She's referring to the people, though. She's referring to how she's perceived/treated by a lot of Canadians. So she's not confusing anything that I can see.

There's a huge difference between "ribbing" and "anti-Americanism," and it's the latter that she's referring to. The first is playful kidding, the second is contempt based solely on nationality. And if the same sentiment were directed to anyone from any other country, it would be seen for what it is. It's prejudice, based solely on nationality.

I've been to afghanistan a half dozen times, most recently this past august, very much in support of our troops (and the afghani people), but no, I'm not a member of the canadian forces. I'm just a dumb civie photographer.

I chose the word 'ribbing' because it is a reflection of how I receive it, not necessarily how it's delivered. I would share the Ms. Jacobson's observation that the comments directed at me are, among other things, often smug and absurd. I just choose to take it less seriously than her. They are, after all, friends and family, there are more interesting matters surrounding us than their opinions about my country of residence. And, as I've said, this tension is not unique to canada and the US. For example, I was near harassed by my cousin's swiss wife about the quality of my french and all of the other failures of north america during a visit to switzerland a couple of years ago. The difference between people like me and people like Ms' Jacobson is that people like me don't lose sleep over minor irritants, especially ones that I have every opportunity to prepare for. She's a scientist, so she shouldn't be surprised to learn that humans are tribal.

[Guest American Woman]

I've been to afghanistan a half dozen times, most recently this past august, very much in support of our troops (and the afghani people), but no, I'm not a member of the canadian forces. I'm just a dumb civie photographer.

Do you have any of your photos posted on a public domain? I'd love to see them.

I chose the word 'ribbing' because it is a reflection of how I receive it, not necessarily how it's delivered. I would share the Ms. Jacobson's observation that the comments directed at me are, among other things, often smug and absurd. I just choose to take it less seriously than her. They are, after all, friends and family,

She's not referring to friends and family. Friends and family often have discussions/differing points of view. That's not what she's referring to. She's referring to contempt based solely on her nationality. Do you really not get that? She's referring to the treatment/attitudes she's been subjected to based on her nationality, nothing else.

there are more interesting matters surrounding us than their opinions about my country of residence.

Canada had become her country of residence. That's a major part of the point she's making. And she chose to make it her country of residence based on the perceptions she had of Canada; perceptions based on how (and I'm not referring to all Canadians) Canadians portray Canada -- 'kinder, gentler, tolerant, caring, et al.' And she's saying that's not true; at least where Americans are concerned. That boils down to anti-Americanism. And that's her point.

And, as I've said, this tension is not unique to canada and the US. For example, I was near harassed by my cousin's swiss wife about the quality of my french and all of the other failures of north america during a visit to switzerland a couple of years ago.

Again, you're missing the point. Her move was based on Canada's reputation; a reputation perpetuated by Canada/Canadians. 'Canada is so tolerant. Canada welcomes everyone with open arms. Canada defines itself by multi-culturalism. Toronto is the most culturally diverse city in the world. Canadians are loved the world over because they are so lovable. Just sport the Maple Leaf and feel the love.'

She's saying not to believe the stereotypes. The reality is quite different. At least for Americans. The U.S. has no such stereotypes. Do you not get that? Americans/the U.S. don't claim to be so much kinder, tolerant, caring than Canada. Our identity is not based on those concepts. We are not throwing that perception out to the world.

The difference between people like me and people like Ms' Jacobson is that people like me don't lose sleep over minor irritants, especially ones that I have every opportunity to prepare for.

First of all, you don't live in the States. She moved to Canada. And her move was based on the perception of Canada that has been thrown out there and perpetuated. If you don't get that, you don't understand the purpose/point of her OP at all. You're trying to compare yourself to her and there is no comparison.

I've traveled too. I know there are tensions between other nations. I know that's not unique to Canada and the U.S. Trust me. But CANADA is the nation that defines itself by it's tolerance, understanding, kindness, acceptance, multi-culturalism. No other nation does that. Canada does. And the author of the OP is saying it's a myth. That there's a strong anti-American sentiment in Canada that belies the perceptions.

She's a scientist, so she shouldn't be surprised to learn that humans are tribal.

More proof that you're not getting it. She's referring to the perceptions of Canada, based on what Canada/Canadians put out there.

[Guest American Woman]

Agreed....this is her well stated dichotomy. Some Canadians choose to brag about their extreme tolerance and multiculturalism, yet reserve and accept a special contempt for Americans....just for being American. The oft repeated explanantion of "US government policies" vs. individual US citizens is quickly lost, and I have found here at MLW that turnabout is not considered fair play, because Canadian government policies and screw-ups are smaller in scale.

They're still not getting it and I don't know how to state it any more clearly. There is a special contempt reserved for Americans (and again, I'm most definitely not referring to most Americans) in a nation that claims to be so tolerant based solely on nationality. It used to be "we don't hate Americans, we hate Bush." But nothing has really changed since Obama was elected. So I agree; the 'it's the government, not the people' doesn't hold much water.

Even more insightful is her description of the resentment born from economic integration and export dependence on those "arrogant Americans", consumption of American media (by choice), and the American indifference to Canada's "moral plight" living next to a belligerent elephant that it needs and loathes at the same time.

It always sort of amazes me when people complain/criticize how American culture is shoved down the world's throat, as if American companies, movies, chains could be there without 'permission.' We aren't putting a gun to people's heads making them watch our movies, listen to our music, let McDonald's et al go up. Saudi Arabia, for example, is proof that where nations don't want this type of thing, it doesn't happen.

[Smallc]

You do realize that the entire world has the same attitude when it comes to the United States, right? The United States is a great country, sure, but there are many negative feelings toward it. It has brought many good things to many parts of the world...on the other hand, it has brought many bad things. Ask South Americans or many people from the middle east why they are not fond of the US. Also (and to make sure you understand, I'm not speaking of all Americans), there is a certain brashness....a standoffish attitude, that comes from many Americans towards the rest of the world. They are the best, and they don't wish to be challenged about it. God Bless the USA and Don't mess with texas, among other are stereotypes, true or not, that the rest of the world believes when it comes to the US.

There is a large piece of the picture that is being missed when it comes to the US woman living in Canada - that it is because of stereotypes about Americans that she is treated (by some) the way that she is.

Just as Canadians cannot avoid stereotypes about themselves (the focus of this article, are I do disagree with some others here, there are differences between Canadians an Americans [Canada is a more collectivist country and is less socially conservative because of our very different history]) held by people moving here from American, Americans cannot avoid stereotypes about themselves when they travel or live abroad.

This article serves as an example of a misunderstanding of Canadians by an American, and from her, a misunderstanding of her own country and the image that it holds the world over.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

...This article serves as an example of a misunderstanding of Canadians by an American, and from her, a misunderstanding of her own country and the image that it holds the world over.

Clearly this is not the case, as the author is both reflective of her actual experiences in Canada and introspective of her own understanding of what it means to be an American. The article is well written and cites examples to reinforce the main points, including the Canadian ("we're not American") identity conundrum so often opined by others.

Edited December 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

You do realize that the entire world has the same attitude when it comes to the United States, right?

What I realize is that the whole world doesn't have the same attitude when it comes to the United States, in spite of what you choose to believe.

The United States is a great country, sure, but there are many negative feelings toward it. It has brought many good things to many parts of the world...on the other hand, it has brought many bad things.

And Canada hasn't? No other nation has? This is unique to the United States?

Ask South Americans or many people from the middle east why they are not fond of the US.

I didn't realize South Americans wren't fond of the US. You learn something new every day. I'll pass that information on to my daughter, who's been in South America since September. I'm sure she'll appreciate being enlightened.

As for the ME, I'd have to say the feeling is mutual on many people's part. But of course that's racist/prejudice/etc because it's only ok to judge/hate Americans. The same standards don't apply to anyone else. That's basically what you're saying.

Also (and to make sure you understand, I'm not speaking of all Americans), there is a certain brashness....a standoffish attitude, that comes from many Americans towards the rest of the world.

I've never denied that. But it's not unique to Americans. Trust me. That's one of the points being made.

They are the best, and they don't wish to be challenged about it.

Of course you'll never find any Canadians feeling that way. Or any French. Or Dutch. Or British. Etc.

God Bless the USA and Don't mess with texas, among other are stereotypes, true or not, that the rest of the world believes when it comes to the US.

Sorta like God bless Canada? Or God save the Queen? As for Don't Mess with Texas -- that's an anti-litter campaign slogan. Nothing too ominous about that.

There is a large piece of the picture that is being missed when it comes to the US woman living in Canada - that it is because of stereotypes about Americans that she is treated (by some) the way that she is.

No, you're the one missing the large piece of the picture. You are admitting that Canadians treat Americans with contempt simply based on stereotypes, and putting Americans at fault for it. Very tolerant, open-minded, accepting, and kind of you. As I said, if you treated any other nation/race/religion based on stereotypes, and then blamed the people for it, you would see it for what it is. But when it comes to Americans, it's a-OK. Americans deserve it. Again. That's one of the points that she's making. It's a perfect example of the anti-American sentiment she's referring to and you really just acted in accordance to what she's said.

Just as Canadians cannot avoid stereotypes about themselves (the focus of this article, are I do disagree with some others here, there are differences between Canadians an Americans [Canada is a more collectivist country and is less socially conservative because of our very different history]) held by people moving here from American, Americans cannot avoid stereotypes about themselves when they travel or live abroad.

The point is, anyone who judges someone solely by their nationality/stereotypes of their nation is the one with the problem. And if that's what a lot of Canadians are doing, they are not acting in accordance with the perception that they like to give of themselves and Canada. That's what the woman is saying. That Canada is not all that it's made out to be/portrayed to be. She's busting the stereotype.

This article serves as an example of a misunderstanding of Canadians by an American, and from her, a misunderstanding of her own country and the image that it holds the world over.

No. This article serves as an example of Canada not being any more tolerant, loving, caring, etc. than any other nation. In spite of many claims to the contrary.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... But when it comes to Americans, it's a-OK. Americans deserve it. Again. That's one of the points that she's making. It's a perfect example of the anti-American sentiment she's referring to and you really just acted in accordance to what she's said....

Indeed...why is it open season on Americans in the context of tolerance, multiculturalism, and hate speech laws?

"Damn Americans… I hate those bastards." - Carolyn Parrish

[BubberMiley]

Indeed...why is it open season on Americans in the context of tolerance, multiculturalism, and hate speech laws?

As evidenced by this board, probably because they're long-winded, repetitive, and annoying.

[bush_cheney2004]

As evidenced by this board, probably because they're long-winded, repetitive, and annoying.

....just like all the American television and films Canadians watch?

[Smallc]

As evidenced by this board, probably because they're long-winded, repetitive, and annoying.

Well, at least the two in this thread. I already had one on ignore, and now that the other one is back, I think she'll go there too.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, at least the two in this thread. I already had one on ignore, and now that the other one is back, I think she'll go there too.

Of course...as this is your only recourse in the face of thorny opinions and observations. Gee, why can't those Americans just shut up and let us go on and on about them without challenge?

[Jack Weber]

Once they go into the ether,the silence is deafening!!!