Before Moving To Canada....

[dre]

That's fine by me...those who dismiss my antics at the superficial level do not wish to engage their own doubts. As stated many times, even if I were to disappear today, the bright orange American tricycle would still capture your attention. I don't know why that is, but other members have explained that it is a necessary thing for Canada...I'm not supposed to understand why.

Yes I can...read this and weep:

Fifteen per cent of Canadians would give up their ballot in Canada's next federal election to vote in the U.S. election, a new poll co-sponsored by the CBC has found.

The poll, done by the Canadian polling company Environics Research on behalf of the Simons Foundation, the CBC, the Environics Institute, the Globe and Mail and Le Devoir, asked 2,001 Canadians over the age of 15 questions about how they perceive their role, and Canada's role, in the world.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/02/01/poll-cbc.html

Wow 15% eh?

[bush_cheney2004]

Wow 15% eh?

Do you think 15% of Americans would give up their vote to participate in a Canadian election? Hmmmm...I wonder which ridings they would choose...oh wait...Americans would first need to know what a riding is!

[dre]

Do you think 15% of Americans would give up their vote to participate in a Canadian election? Hmmmm...I wonder which ridings they would choose...oh wait...Americans would first need to know what a riding is!

More than 50% of elligable Americans dont even BOTHER to vote. Theyd probably give up their vote for a dinner at jack in the box.

[bush_cheney2004]

More than 50% of elligable Americans dont even BOTHER to vote. Theyd probably give up their vote for a dinner at jack in the box.

Wrong...it depends on the election. So not only have you been proven wrong, you wish to move the goal post. Classic!

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadians for Obama:

[dre]

Wrong...it depends on the election. So not only have you been proven wrong, you wish to move the goal post. Classic!

Proven wrong about WHAT exactly? Oh right... nothing. You havent even made a salient point to defend or attack. And I didnt move your precious goalposts, theyre still planted firmly up your ass where you put them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Proven wrong about WHAT exactly? Oh right... nothing. You havent even made a salient point to defend or attack. And I didnt move your precious goalposts, theyre still planted firmly up your ass where you put them.

Your interest in my ass is noted, but you will have to wait in line. I don't know why some Canadians lust for an American vote, but they do, and nothing you say will change that.

Hell, even you vote with your feet. Y'all come back now...hear?

[dizzy]

Your interest in my ass is noted, but you will have to wait in line. I don't know why some Canadians lust for an American vote, but they do, and nothing you say will change that.

Hell, even you vote with your feet. Y'all come back now...hear?

Well, your continued participation in this forum is evidence that the tribalism works both ways. I'm curious, with all of the time you've invested here, have you ever said anything nice about canada or canadians?

[dre]

Your interest in my ass is noted, but you will have to wait in line. I don't know why some Canadians lust for an American vote, but they do, and nothing you say will change that.

Hell, even you vote with your feet. Y'all come back now...hear?

Your interest in my ass is noted, but you will have to wait in line. I don't know why some Canadians lust for an American vote, but they do, and nothing you say will change that.

Why would I want to change that? I could care less if a small minority of Canadians are more interested in US politics than their own. Im actually proud of the fact that Canadian elections are quick cheap and boring, and dont make for much an entertainment spectacle. If foreigners were tuning in to watch Canadian elections for the same reason people stop and watch car accidents or Survivor, or Idol, Id actually be sort of alarmed.

You guys made the choice to turn your political system into a slapstick comedy/drama reality TV show! Why are you now complaining that you have an international audience?.

Edited December 6, 2010 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, your continued participation in this forum is evidence that the tribalism works both ways. I'm curious, with all of the time you've invested here, have you ever said anything nice about canada or canadians?

Of course, but wouldn't that be equally irrelevant from your vantage point? I am more interested in the dynamics of our differences over a shared history with unequal outcomes. If trading insults be the price of admission, then it is a small price to pay.

Some members here get it....not unlike the Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force) of WW2.

Edited December 6, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Why would I want to change that? I could care less if a small minority of Canadians are more interested in US politics than their own.

Point of order...you mean you couldn't care less...because if you could care less...then that means you do care a little bit right now...and...oh well...nevermind.

Im actually proud of the fact that Canadian elections are quick cheap and boring, and dont make for much an entertainment spectacle. If foreigners were tuning in to watch Canadian elections for the same reason people stop and watch car accidents or Survivor, or Idol, Id actually be sort of alarmed.

Well, it's all the same...and Canadians always tune in. HNIC only goes so far.

You guys made the choice to turn your political system into a slapstick comedy/drama reality TV show! Why are you now complaining that you have an international audience?.

I'm not complaining at all....living in Jupiter's gravity must be a bitch!

[dre]

Point of order...you mean you couldn't care less...because if you could care less...then that means you do care a little bit right now...and...oh well...nevermind.

Well, it's all the same...and Canadians always tune in. HNIC only goes so far.

I'm not complaining at all....living in Jupiter's gravity must be a bitch!

I'm not complaining at all....living in Jupiter's gravity must be a bitch!

Nope, its not a bitch at all. We have only one border and its with an ally with which we share the largest trading partnership between two countries in the history of the human race, and accounts for the vast majority of our exports, and a shitload of our imports as well.

Why is that a bitch?

[bush_cheney2004]

...Why is that a bitch?

Because it creates an overwhelming resentment in some Canadians, just as Ms. Jacobson stated. Hating the complicity in American foreign policy while wanting and needing the trade relationship you describe...about $1.5 billion per day. Such is the plight of self appointed do-gooders.

Americans...can't live with them...can't live without them.

[Smallc]

Hey Smallc...

Do you hear the silence???

I do....now I have silence in stereo.

[dizzy]

Of course, but wouldn't that be equally irrelevant from your vantage point? I am more interested in the dynamics of our differences over a shared history with unequal outcomes. If trading insults be the price of admission, then it is a small price to pay.

Some members here get it....not unlike the Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force) of WW2.

No, it wouldn't be irrelevant because it would express intent. If your only objective is to celebrate difference for the sake of history, what is there to discredit in canadian-born 'anti-americanism'?

[bush_cheney2004]

No, it wouldn't be irrelevant because it would express intent. If your only objective is to celebrate difference for the sake of history, what is there to discredit in canadian-born 'anti-americanism'?

There is nothing to discredit, nor is that my purpose. Thorough recognition of its mere existence is reward enough, just as described in Jean-Francois Revel's Anti-Americanism. The energy and entertainment comes from pretzel logic reconciliation of stated Canadian values/resentment and incompatible complicity with American actions over the past 100 years.

This is the same sentiment expressed by Ms. Jacobson.

On the now defunct CBC Forum, a Canadian member explained that the "new" Canada wishes to leave all that behind and only look forward, while holding America responsible for everything since the founding of Jamestown Colony (1607)!

Edited December 6, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[dizzy]

There is nothing to discredit, nor is that my purpose. Thorough recognition of its mere existence is reward enough, just as described in Jean-Francois Revel's Anti-Americanism. The energy and entertainment comes from pretzel logic reconciliation of stated Canadian values/resentment and incompatible complicity with American actions over the past 100 years.

This is the same sentiment expressed by Ms. Jacobson.

On the now defunct CBC Forum, a Canadian member explained that the "new" Canada wishes to leave all that behind and only look forward, while holding America responsible for everything since the founding of Jamestown Colony (1607)!

Interesting that you reference a frenchman's work on european anxieties as reference for this uniquely canadian brand of anti-americanism?

I can't speak for all canadians, simply because there is no unified voice. I know we seem small in the american eye, but a population of 33 million means that 33 million people live here, not a group so small that they can easily be typecast. I am from a family of multi-planted south asian immigrants. I grew up in toronto. What do I have in common with my own son, who is growing up as a franco living and studying in québec, and is also the child of a mother who is multi-generation ontarian? I can answer the question, but it evades the things that rank high in your assessment of difference. Maybe that is the privilege of being a nomad?

Canadian 'anti-americanism' is no different than American 'anti-mexicanism'. It is a touch romantic, a touch xenophobic, unchangeable and, ultimately, irrelevant because we all know it would be harder to fulfill our quality of life without the other.

[bush_cheney2004]

Interesting that you reference a frenchman's work on european anxieties as reference for this uniquely canadian brand of anti-americanism?

But by your own admission, it is not unique at all. Revel has a very long perspective on this topic...certainly more rich than "we hate Bush".

I can't speak for all canadians.... Maybe that is the privilege of being a nomad?

Nor do I speak for all Americans, but since so few of us are here at MLW, we gladly take the brunt of both good or bad. We are here by choice, have traveled the world (though not as extensively as you perhaps), and know what it means to be an "American". The arrogance may be well earned, but is not applicable to all Americans.

Canadian 'anti-americanism' is no different than American 'anti-mexicanism'. It is a touch romantic, a touch xenophobic, unchangeable and, ultimately, irrelevant because we all know it would be harder to fulfill our quality of life without the other.

Maybe...the quality of life in parts of Mexico would indicate otherwise. Still, Mexico does not outwardly display the sort of identity crisis commonly articulated in Canadian media. Mexican emigres (legal or otherwise) are motivated to engage the United States with a different level of priorities, and some are uber patriots once landed...having made it to the "Promised Land".

[dizzy]

But by your own admission, it is not unique at all. Revel has a very long perspective on this topic...certainly more rich than "we hate Bush".

Yes, it is not unique. That is my point. The US is the modern day roman empire, preceded by the modern day greek empire of Great Britain. Apply anxieties/concerns regarding the impact of those labels accordingly, based on where you live.

Nor do I speak for all Americans, but since so few of us are here at MLW, we gladly take the brunt of both good or bad. We are here by choice, have traveled the world (though not as extensively as you perhaps), and know what it means to be an "American". The arrogance may be well earned, but is not applicable to all Americans.

FYI I share from personal experience often, but only because I think truth can not exist without accountability.

I've never traveled as an american, so I can't speak to that experience, but I have traveled with americans and also to places where I made acquaintance with americans. In most places, I'd rather hang with a yankee than a frenchman or an italian. My worst ugly american experience was in central america with an asshole that was only moments of lucky from not meeting my fist because of his drippy superiority. But it was another american who ended up 'repudiating' him. Both were californians... the latter is now a friend... and the experience is evidence to me that there is no ideological consensus connected to flag.

Maybe...the quality of life in parts of Mexico would indicate otherwise. Still, Mexico does not outwardly display the sort of identity crisis commonly articulated in Canadian media. Mexican emigres (legal or otherwise) are motivated to engage the United States with a different level of priorities, and some are uber patriots once landed...having made it to the "Promised Land".

What you might not understand is the beauty behind the canadian identity crisis. Properly harnessed, it's a strength. My gf, son and I are perfectly benign when we are abroad. That no one sees us as a threat makes it so much easier for us to be evaluated as individuals. We share this privilege with nordic countries and few others. At home, we benefit from both canadian and american influences interchangeably. If we're discussing identity and not limiting to political class, I could argue that you do the same every time you listen to a music genre invented by former black slaves. Get my point?

Edited December 6, 2010 by dizzy

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, it is not unique. That is my point. The US is the modern day roman empire, preceded by the modern day greek empire of Great Britain. Apply anxieties/concerns regarding the impact of those labels accordingly, based on where you live.

OK...but the quirk being that Canada is more aligned with the British Empire (i.e. Head of State) than America (Pax Britannica v2.0). Canada was long caught in a struggle between the Americans and Britain/Europe...we know how that ended.

What you might not understand is the beauty behind the canadian identity crisis. Properly harnessed, it's a strength. My gf, son and I are perfectly benign when we are abroad. That no one sees us as a threat makes it so much easier for us to be evaluated as individuals. We share this privilege with nordic countries and few others.

This assumed advantage is more perception than reality, and I suspect, is developed again by contrast with....you guessed it...Americans!

At home, we benefit from both canadian and american influences interchangeably. If we're discussing identity and not limiting to political class, I could argue that you do the same every time you listen to a music genre invented by former black slaves. Get my point?

No, because I would benefit from former black slaves regardless of identity.

[dizzy]

OK...but the quirk being that Canada is more aligned with the British Empire (i.e. Head of State) than America (Pax Britannica v2.0). Canada was long caught in a struggle between the Americans and Britain/Europe...we know how that ended.

I think Canada has benefited from having british roots and america as a neighbour. Remember, canada was born of purely pragmatic means, not lofty ideals. This informs the canadian identity in ways that could be judged as both good and bad. The opposite reality presents the same challenges and opportunities for americans. I could write a book regarding the nuances based on these different histories, but I wouldn't necessarily read one. Like it or not, the US joins Canada, Australia and others as benefactors of the british legacy.

This assumed advantage is more perception than reality, and I suspect, is developed again by contrast with....you guessed it...Americans!

You base this on what, exactly? It's an undeniable fact that canadians and a few european liberal democracies have both exceptionally high levels of socio-economic well-being AND a history as non-colonial small powers. You think that experience comes with no beneficial characteristics? None?

No, because I would benefit from former black slaves regardless of identity.

Once again, I feel you are in accordance with my point but too stubborn to agree. Identity is the sum of an equation that includes the historical contributions of others and our own ability benefit from them. Nowhere in the rules does it say we have to be obeisant to the political classes and innovators that gave us the goods. The only inherent obligation is that we continue the trend.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think Canada has benefited from having british roots and america as a neighbour. Remember, canada was born of purely pragmatic means, not lofty ideals. This informs the canadian identity in ways that could be judged as both good and bad.

It's never been a question of good or bad (for me), just the stand-alone definition of such attributes without defaulting to the US as a foil.

The opposite reality presents the same challenges and opportunities for americans. I could write a book regarding the nuances based on these different histories, but I wouldn't necessarily read one. Like it or not, the US joins Canada, Australia and others as benefactors of the british legacy.

Yes and no...The US fundamentally represented a repudiation of the British Empire and its Commonwealth. The US is an amalgam of other cultures and empires that Canada has never intersected (e.g. Spain)

You base this on what, exactly? It's an undeniable fact that canadians and a few european liberal democracies have both exceptionally high levels of socio-economic well-being AND a history as non-colonial small powers. You think that experience comes with no beneficial characteristics? None?

I think your premise is somewhat flawed at the start...as "non-colonial small power" is little consolation for those cultures and peoples still impacted by Canada's actions made in consort with Mother Britain, UN, NATO, etc.

Once again, I feel you are in accordance with my point but too stubborn to agree. Identity is the sum of an equation that includes the historical contributions of others and our own ability benefit from them. Nowhere in the rules does it say we have to be obeisant to the political classes and innovators that gave us the goods. The only inherent obligation is that we continue the trend.

I guess I am puzzled by your example of "former black slaves", as I would not exist on this continent without this legacy gift from Great Britain.

[Oleg Bach]

Why mention the UN? What use are they and what real authority do they have? Why respect the disrespecting jerks?

[bush_cheney2004]

Why mention the UN? What use are they and what real authority do they have? Why respect the disrespecting jerks?

Because in this thread's context, Canada and other nations prosecute policy and military actions under UN mandate, except when they don't. I'm sure that dead Iraqis are not comforted much by the fact that the bombs were blue (Gulf War 1).

Edited December 6, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

Because in this thread's context, Canada and other nations prosecute policy and military actions under UN mandate, except when they don't. I'm sure that dead Iraqis are not comforted much by the fact that the bombs were blue (Gulf War 1).

Funny how the UN will not grant a seat to Canada on the security council..but Canada like a puppy will still follow the direction the UN mandate suggests..Kind of like promising the wife you won't cheat after finding out she has slept with all your friends and enemies.. Really - America does not like paying it's bill to the UN - because they KNOW that it is a useless and corrupt body..The Americans are practical when it comes to cash hand outs..They know that the UN is not worthy of cash and that there is not profit to be gained by any payment - Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free.

It's good that you understand the UN - cleverly kills people in Africa .. eastern Europe...the middle east and other places. Why solve a problem when you can kill it directly - or by turning a blind eye.

Remember when we were kids and we heard about the great hope called the UNITED NATIONS? Well forget the hope...the idea was good but it failed.