Missile launch near L.A.

[GostHacked]

That's a good link.

I think this part:

explains what Gosthacked has been trying to say all along (and in a much better way than GH [sorry GH]).

No apologies needed. That's clarification which is good. But either way I am still saying it is military in nature. Why else would they say .. nope no missile launched by us, we don't really know what it is/was but really nothing to worry about. That means the military knew what it was determined it was benign and left it at that.

If it was an airline, there would be a flight path issued with the FAA if it was commercial. That would not be hard to check that information. That would have been known right away.

My bets are on it was a military craft of some type, rocket, plane, not sure, but I have my doubts about it being civilian.

[M.Dancer]

Spend some time looking at the sky, you will notice a difference. I've seen two planes track across the sky, one leaves a normal contral which lasted about a minute, the other one just about 20 mins before, left the long trail that does not end. Two planes same conditions , different results.

On my balconey looking north west I once saw two planes leave two long trails...I watched the trails as they slowly tracked from north to south ...over 100 degrees of sky....it had to have taken over 45 minutes and in that time they barely disappated at all.

[Topaz]

After finding the article I posted about the Chinese, I went online this AM to check out the author of the article and I find that this gal/guy is a fraud, written things that weren't true and so I'm posting that info. here. Also, after looking at the trail from what the US government says its from a plane, I still don't believe that because the trails are too wide across andthe pattern doesn't seem what I've seen. Anyway, here about the author of the article. http://educate-yourself.org/cn/sorchafaaldisinfo15mar08.shtml

[GostHacked]

On my balconey looking north west I once saw two planes leave two long trails...I watched the trails as they slowly tracked from north to south ...over 100 degrees of sky....it had to have taken over 45 minutes and in that time they barely disappated at all.

Indeed. On a couple occasions I have seen multiple planes track across the clear blue sky early in the morning, leaving the endless trail. By early evening the whole sky was a hazy pasty white. It spreads out and creates artificial clouds. Either I was not paying attention, but I had not noticed this back in the 80s when I was a teenager. I was always looking at the sky (wanted to be a pilot and did some flying). I had started noticing this new phenomenon about 10 years ago.

I have no idea what conditions would cause the drastically different results on the same day, same hour, same patch of sky.

Edited November 11, 2010 by GostHacked

[DogOnPorch]

Correction: looks like someone has identified United Airways Flight 808 from Phoenix to Hawaii as a plausible culprit.

See: http://uncinus.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/4/

It could indeed be that flight that made the plume, but the military was doing something non-contrail related in that area or there wouldn't be a NOTAM.

Media: Did you guys fire off a missile?

US Air Force: No...[pause]...I think...lemme check...nope.

Mystery solved...I think...lol.

[Wilber]

Correction: looks like someone has identified United Airways Flight 808 from Phoenix to Hawaii as a plausible culprit.

See: http://uncinus.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/4/

When I saw this post I went WTF, that aircraft was definately eastbound. Then I checked the link and it said UA 808 was enroute from Hawaii to Pheonix which makes perfect sense.

[msj]

Media: Did you guys fire off a missile?

US Air Force: No...[pause]...I think...lemme check...nope.

Mystery solved...I think...lol.

I think it comes down to how one views the military.

To me they are just an extension of the government and, therefore, as incompetent.

So, no, it wouldn't surprise me if it was a commercial airliner and the military took this long to find things out.

If you think the military is uber-efficient then they are just being coy and, therefore, it must have something to do with the military.

[DogOnPorch]

I think it comes down to how one views the military.

To me they are just an extension of the government and, therefore, as incompetent.

So, no, it wouldn't surprise me if it was a commercial airliner and the military took this long to find things out.

If you think the military is uber-efficient then they are just being coy and, therefore, it must have something to do with the military.

It's not like the residents of that general area aren't treated to regular rocket launches...so I don't doubt they generally have some experience with both contrails and rocket plumes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLO-IdGHf70

[Wilber]

Spoken like someone who is used to instant gratification via their computer keyboard. LA Center handles thousands of flights a day, arriving , departing and in transit. While it is entirely possible to find out which aircraft was where at a certain time and date, they just can't Google it. It takes a while. This information is normally only used for inquiries involving incidents or accidents and there is no need to have instant access to it.

On Edit

As this aircraft was approaching the coast, it would also be in the process of changing from oceanic control (San Francisco) to domestic control in that sector (Los Angeles) possibly further complicating the process if identification.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Wilber

[DogOnPorch]

Spoken like someone who is used to instant gratification via their computer keyboard. LA Center handles thousands of flights a day, arriving , departing and in transit. While it is entirely possible to find out which aircraft was where at a certain time and date, they just can't Google it. It takes a while. This information is normally only used for inquiries involving incidents or accidents and there is no need to have instant access to it.

On Edit

As this aircraft was approaching the coast, it would also be in the process of changing from oceanic control (San Francisco) to domestic control in that sector (Los Angeles) possibly further complicating the process if identification.

Agreement.

[GostHacked]

Spoken like someone who is used to instant gratification via their computer keyboard. LA Center handles thousands of flights a day, arriving , departing and in transit. While it is entirely possible to find out which aircraft was where at a certain time and date, they just can't Google it. It takes a while. This information is normally only used for inquiries involving incidents or accidents and there is no need to have instant access to it.

The TSA/Homeland Security know about every US inbound/outbound commercial aircraft in the sky at all times. This is all in place now after the WTC attack.

As this aircraft was approaching the coast, it would also be in the process of changing from oceanic control (San Francisco) to domestic control in that sector (Los Angeles) possibly further complicating the process if identification.

The FAA knows where all those flights are. All commercial aircraft have a beacon and a radio transmitter with broadcasts their ID. Unless that transmitter is disabled, you'd know what that flight would be. Also, there is no oceanic control as far as I know. I guess satellites could be used for that kind of thing. GPS tracking on an aircraft.

But again, the LA terminal would know about this flight coming in based on the flight plan it would have submitted to the LA terminal before it took off from where ever. If it was late, early, off it's course, they'd know about it.

[eyeball]

The TSA/Homeland Security know about every US inbound/outbound commercial aircraft in the sky at all times. This is all in place now after the WTC attack.

The FAA knows where all those flights are. All commercial aircraft have a beacon and a radio transmitter with broadcasts their ID. Unless that transmitter is disabled, you'd know what that flight would be. Also, there is no oceanic control as far as I know. I guess satellites could be used for that kind of thing. GPS tracking on an aircraft.

But again, the LA terminal would know about this flight coming in based on the flight plan it would have submitted to the LA terminal before it took off from where ever. If it was late, early, off it's course, they'd know about it.

The authorities could have said yes it was a plane but there'd still be millions who wouldn't put it past them to lie about it. All the conjecture is a sign of the times but so is the fact it's taken the authorities 36 hours or more to comment one way or the other. Given the billions that have supposedly been spent on preventing threats from the air you'd think the authorities would be able to say within 5 minutes of being apprised of this mystery whether a jet could have been the cause instead it took 36 or more hours.

[bush_cheney2004]

... Given the billions that have supposedly been spent on preventing threats from the air you'd think the authorities would be able to say within 5 minutes....

Nope....I can still get into a Cessna 172 and fly it into any building within range and it would take a lot longer than that to figure things out. False expectation.....

[eyeball]

Nope....I can still get into a Cessna 172 and fly it into any building within range and it would take a lot longer than that to figure things out. False expectation.....

A Cessna maybe but not an airliner. Your government has gone to great lengths to convince everyone they can expect it to know what is happening almost to the minute in the skies above and around America.

[GostHacked]

The authorities could have said yes it was a plane but there'd still be millions who wouldn't put it past them to lie about it.

Well, the military does have a record of wanting to keep certain things under the hat. But when they said, hay, not us, but nothing to worry about, tells me they knew right away what it was. Or the alarms would be going off.

All the conjecture is a sign of the times but so is the fact it's taken the authorities 36 hours or more to comment one way or the other. Given the billions that have supposedly been spent on preventing threats from the air you'd think the authorities would be able to say within 5 minutes of being apprised of this mystery whether a jet could have been the cause instead it took 36 or more hours.

True. Technology has come a long way. I would say that most things that are widely used by commercial airlines, (any kind of technology) would have been started and to a point perfected by the military. And the military has ALWAYS had the better kits. So yeah 36 hours in this day and age, seems like a failure.

Anyone with a good set of binoculars should have been able to tell what it was. I've been able to make out really distant planes with my handicam even at 25x zoom. Can't tell what type of plane but you can tell it's a plane none the less.

[Wilber]

The TSA/Homeland Security know about every US inbound/outbound commercial aircraft in the sky at all times. This is all in place now after the WTC attack.

The FAA knows where all those flights are. All commercial aircraft have a beacon and a radio transmitter with broadcasts their ID. Unless that transmitter is disabled, you'd know what that flight would be. Also, there is no oceanic control as far as I know. I guess satellites could be used for that kind of thing. GPS tracking on an aircraft.

But again, the LA terminal would know about this flight coming in based on the flight plan it would have submitted to the LA terminal before it took off from where ever. If it was late, early, off it's course, they'd know about it.

There is no radar tracking on oceanic routes. Tracking is done by the aircraft's position reports which have to be made at specific reporting points on publish tracks or every ten degrees of longitude on random tracks. These are done either by data link through satellites from aircraft that have that capability or by HF radio by those which do not. Prior to the oceanic exit point on the aircrafts planned route they will contact the appropriate domestic center and give their altitude and estimate for that point. That center will give them a transponder code and ask them to transmit an ident signal on their transponder. They will then tell the aircraft when it has been radar identified. They may have been expecting it but it is only at that point that LA center would know the identity of the aircraft. Radar is line of sight and the range at which it can pick up an aircraft depends on how high the radar antenna is located. Most are mounted on hills if possible because an antenna at sea level would have a range of only around 120 miles when trying to pick up an aircraft at cruising altitude.

On the North Pacific all oceanic control is handled by San Francisco in the Eastern Pacific and Tokyo in the West.

[M.Dancer]

A Cessna maybe but not an airliner. Your government has gone to great lengths to convince everyone they can expect it to know what is happening almost to the minute in the skies above and around America.

As I explained earlier, they know eactly what and where everything in the sky at any given moment....but to expect them to know exactly what something was based on general info like, Position: "in that direction, maybe going this way" Altitude: "High" Time: Yesterday Afternoon...is expecting a little much. Contrary to what you think or wish, they ain't Star Fleet...

[bush_cheney2004]

A Cessna maybe but not an airliner. Your government has gone to great lengths to convince everyone they can expect it to know what is happening almost to the minute in the skies above and around America.

I must have missed that memo...there is no such expectation. There are many such events that remain undetected and "unsolved", from low flying drug runners to meteors.

[GostHacked]

I must have missed that memo...there is no such expectation. There are many such events that remain undetected and "unsolved", from low flying drug runners to meteors.

Indeed there are things that fly under the radar so to speak. Commercial aircraft don't fall into that category.

[Handsome Rob]

Spend some time looking at the sky, you will notice a difference. I've seen two planes track across the sky, one leaves a normal contral which lasted about a minute, the other one just about 20 mins before, left the long trail that does not end. Two planes same conditions , different results.

Very much not the same conditions.

The stars in Orion's belt look really close together, but really they are light years apart.

From your perspective as an observer, and angular distance of a few inches could equate to dozens or even hundreds of miles in the distance.

A contrail from a 744 climbing through 25,000 at -5 is going to look vastly different from a Lear at 52,000 ft and -35. Air pressure varies all over the place, moisture content and saturation vary all over the place, there are temperature inversions aloft.....

Consider the idea of a heavy step climbing on an oceanic crossing, say with a full load of fuel cruising at 26,000/0 until enough is burned for the next climb. The contrail is faint, but slowly starts to show up as the airplane climbs. However the cool air descends and the contrail dissipates.

From your position, 'right next to it,' 2 miles above at 38,000 and -20, is a 737 heading for Toronto, and the contrails are just billowing out. They linger for an hour before the winds aloft stretch them out into a mares tail cirrus cloud practically invisible. Or perhaps underneath the barometer is falling a large volume of warm moist air is rising.

[GostHacked]

Very much not the same conditions.

The stars in Orion's belt look really close together, but really they are light years apart.

From your perspective as an observer, and angular distance of a few inches could equate to dozens or even hundreds of miles in the distance.

What I witnessed was right over my head, but even at best they could be separated by 2 miles (about 10,000 feet) So 25,000 to 35,000 feet. The one trail spanned horizon to horizon, lasted the rest of the day spreading into a whit haze. While the other was a very short and lasted no more than 30 seconds.

A contrail from a 744 climbing through 25,000 at -5 is going to look vastly different from a Lear at 52,000 ft and -35. Air pressure varies all over the place, moisture content and saturation vary all over the place, there are temperature inversions aloft.....

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html

At 25000 feet and higher you get -40C and down in temp from there. Very cold.

Consider the idea of a heavy step climbing on an oceanic crossing, say with a full load of fuel cruising at 26,000/0 until enough is burned for the next climb. The contrail is faint, but slowly starts to show up as the airplane climbs. However the cool air descends and the contrail dissipates.

From your position, 'right next to it,' 2 miles above at 38,000 and -20, is a 737 heading for Toronto, and the contrails are just billowing out. They linger for an hour before the winds aloft stretch them out into a mares tail cirrus cloud practically invisible. Or perhaps underneath the barometer is falling a large volume of warm moist air is rising.

I've seen stuff last all day. Which it should not. And at much lower altitudes from what I can tell. I have a basic understanding of the atmosphere and been trying to understand more as I go. So I can understand how they could last all day.

[TimG]

It could indeed be that flight that made the plume, but the military was doing something non-contrail related in that area or there wouldn't be a NOTAM.

Could be a complete coincidence. How often do these NOTAM things come out?

[GostHacked]

Could be a complete coincidence. How often do these NOTAM things come out?

Everytime the military wants to conduct and exercise. To avoid mishaps.

[Handsome Rob]

What I witnessed was right over my head, but even at best they could be separated by 2 miles (about 10,000 feet) So 25,000 to 35,000 feet. The one trail spanned horizon to horizon, lasted the rest of the day spreading into a whit haze. While the other was a very short and lasted no more than 30 seconds.

Consider your viewpoint at the bottom, like a triangle, you are the fulcrum and the two endpoints are the airplane. The further away the airplanes are, the greater the distance between them. 3 dimensional seperation. A variance of 10-15,000 ft can easily cause huge difference in contrail formation, from air saturation, temperature differences, differences in combustion, differences in air pressure, etc, etc.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html

At 25000 feet and higher you get -40C and down in temp from there. Very cold.

I have no idea what standards are used in that chart, but aviation uses a standard lapse rate of -1.98c/1,000 ft. Far and away from the numbers quoted. Their are two other rates for varied conditions.

Actual temp aloft right now:

http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca/cgi-bin/Fore-obs/fd.cgi

STN YVR - VANCOUVER. BC

24000 - 2452-31 = Winds from 240 @ 52 knots & -31c, during a cold winter air mass and a ground temperature in the 10c range.

In summer months when ground temp is 30c, these numbers plummet. The atmosphere also does some strange things and it's not unusual to hold warm air aloft.

Regardless, the numbers quoted were completely anecdotal, off the top of my head to illustrate the massive differences in environment possible.

I've seen stuff last all day. Which it should not. And at much lower altitudes from what I can tell. I have a basic understanding of the atmosphere and been trying to understand more as I go. So I can understand how they could last all day.

Depending on conditions, it's not unusual for a contrail to hang around.

Water from evaporation condensed into visible form = cloud.

Water from jet exhaust condensed into visible form = cloud.

There is little difference chemically between the two.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Handsome Rob

[TimG]

Everytime the military wants to conduct and exercise. To avoid mishaps.

And how often do they do that?