How to spend $16 billion of taxpayers' money?

[August1991]

$16 billion (over 10 years or so) on new "5th Generation Stealth Jets" while our guys are fighting in Afghanistan?

Sorry, I think our Conservative government has its priorities wrong.

I think our fight in Afghanistan is more important to me, and my family and other people in the West. I want us to live freely far in to the future.

----

I think we in Canada should spend our money on confronting Failed States, and not fighting a Cold War that we, Western Democratic Free-Individual Free-Market Capitalist States, won.

(Sorry for the plug.)

Edited July 20, 2010 by August1991

[William Ashley]

$16 billion (over 10 years or so) on new "5th Generation Stealth Jets" while our guys are fighting in Afghanistan?

Sorry, I think our Conservative government has its priorities wrong.

I think our fight in Afghanistan is more important to me, and my family and other people in the West. I want us to live freely far in to the future.

----

I think we in Canada should spend our money on confronting Failed States, and not fighting a Cold War that we, Western Democratic Free-Individual Free-Market Capitalist States, won.

(Sorry for the plug.)

That would buy like 56 billion cereal bars or more.. maybe even 100 billion cereal bars. that would be over 2500 serial bars per canadian or a bar a day for like 7 years - and how about making them work out for those 200 calories - eg. 200 calories of exercise or lifting each day.

Then with the other million we could give em sporks.

Heck if I played my cards right I could have friends get contracted to make em, and they could treat me well for life - and I'd get 1 cereal bar each day for 7 years.

http://www.dietandfitnessresources.co.uk/fitness_exercise/10_ways.htm

Edited July 20, 2010 by William Ashley

[Moonbox]

August I don't mean to be rude...but really? You had to make a THIRD thread on the exact same subject???

There are already 2 threads on the first page of this forum complaining about the F-35. Seriously.

[Bonam]

How to spend $16 billion?

1. Spend it on New 5th Generation Stealth Jets (1 votes [100.00%])

Percentage of vote: 100.00%

2. Spend it on material for our troops in Afghanistan (0 votes [0.00%])

Percentage of vote: 0.00%

3. Both (sorry, that's not an option) (0 votes [0.00%])

Percentage of vote: 0.00%

4. Spend it on health/education (not on option either) (0 votes [0.00%])

Percentage of vote: 0.00%

You seem to realize that 3 and 4 are not options. What you fail to see is that 2 is equally not an option. [

[August1991]

That would buy like 56 billion cereal bars or more.. maybe even 100 billion cereal bars. that would be over 2500 serial bars per canadian or a bar a day for like 7 years...

For all I know, kids in Somalia would love us for that.

Ashley, unlike the 20th century, in this 21st century, we are not facing tanks, Blitzkrieg, A-bombs or ICBMs. We are facing car bombs, suicide bombers with bolts, small pieces of metal, tied around themselves, who get on public transport and possibly kill us, or maim us.

Queen Victoria faced as a person what we in the West now face as a people.

[waldo]

excellent thread August1991... but let's not forget another $9-10 billion for the operational costs (distinct from maintenance costs) over that same period - puts the total cost in around $25 billion. Just sayin.

[Smallc]

excellent thread August1991... but let's not forget another $9-10 billion for the operational costs

You think that the current jets don't cost billions to operate?

[waldo]

excellent thread August1991... but let's not forget another $9-10 billion for the operational costs (distinct from maintenance costs) over that same period - puts the total cost in around $25 billion. Just sayin.

You think that the current jets don't cost billions to operate?

don't know... but in the interests of full Harper Conservative transparency and disclosure it would be prudent to know the complete costs... if one is talking about taxpayer's money - as is this OP... wouldn't you think?

Edited July 20, 2010 by waldo

[August1991]

August I don't mean to be rude...but really? You had to make a THIRD thread on the exact same subject???

There are already 2 threads on the first page of this forum complaining about the F-35. Seriously.

In guess you have a point, Moonbox. But $16 billion is a whack of money - about $500/person. Surely it deserves a thread or two, no?

Anyway, we don't have a poll on this question and I really think Harper/Mckay have misplaced priorities on this spending.

If my $500 could help a soldier in Afghanistan fight the 12th century idiots, then I vote against "5th Generation Stealth Jets".

----

BTW, I would like to see Stephen Harper defend this $16 billion in a youtube video using the phrase "5th Generation Stealth Jets". If Harper can't do that, then he does not have the right to spend my tax money (all $500) to buy these jets.

Edited July 20, 2010 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

BTW, I would like to see Stephen Harper defend this $16 billion in a youtube video using the phrase "5th Generation Stealth Jets". If Harper can't do that, then he does not have the right to spend my tax money (all $500) to buy these jets.

..but YouTube is "5th Generation Media".

[August1991]

... but YouTube is "5th Generation Media".

YouTube is only 3.4 generation.

Everyone on this forum has made plain that the F-35 is a 5.0 generation.

Edited July 20, 2010 by August1991

[TimG]

August,

So are you claiming that Canada should just get out of the jet fighter game altogether?

If not, how much are you willing to spend to replace the existing planes?

And please point us to something that shows us what can be bought for your price.

[sharkman]

Love the Spinal Tap clip. Now amps are digital and start at about -80 and go to +20 or so. The madness never ends!

Anyway, spending on the Afghanistan effort is fine. But the military jets are sort of the same. Remember the Sea King fiasco, the badly needed purchase kept getting pushed off by Uncle Jean while chopper after chopper crashed, broke down and endangered our pilots. We shouldn't do the same with needed jet replacements. Just my 2 cents.

[nicky10013]

Love the Spinal Tap clip. Now amps are digital and start at about -80 and go to +20 or so. The madness never ends!

Anyway, spending on the Afghanistan effort is fine. But the military jets are sort of the same. Remember the Sea King fiasco, the badly needed purchase kept getting pushed off by Uncle Jean while chopper after chopper crashed, broke down and endangered our pilots. We shouldn't do the same with needed jet replacements. Just my 2 cents.

I don't disagree with the sentiment that we should push back the purchase of planes, but we should be looking at why these exact planes were purchased. These planes are supposedly tip of the sword planes. Stealth fighters meant to breach enemy air space to deliver shock and awe type power during a first assault. Essentially, these are first strike weapons systems. This is all fine and good, but should that really be the role of the fighters we buy? Shoudln't the planes we buy be suited to Canada? The biggest problem being reported is that the F-35 is a single engine fighter which just doesn't have the range to intercept targets where they're most likely to come from which is the arctic. They'd have to send up refuelling planes which take on average 8 hours to reach their station. The only way around it I see is the way they dealt with the F-18s lack of range which was to put big external fuel tanks on the wings and belly. You'll rarely see a picture of a CF-18 without at least the belly tank. To do this on the F-35 I would imagine would negate the stealth capability. So why was such an expensive plane purchased?

Other planes mentioned have been the Eurofigher or the F-18E Super Hornet which has a much longer range than the original F-18A/C.

Edited July 20, 2010 by nicky10013

[Army Guy]

Ashley, unlike the 20th century, in this 21st century, we are not facing tanks, Blitzkrieg, A-bombs or ICBMs. We are facing car bombs, suicide bombers with bolts, small pieces of metal, tied around themselves, who get on public transport and possibly kill us, or maim us.

Queen Victoria faced as a person what we in the West now face as a people.

This is a myth , one that even has some of the chain of command in DND convinced that insurgency warfare is the NEW WAR to prepare for....and it's not true...

Gulf wars one and two High intensity warfare on the gorund and in the air, it involved mordern ground equipmet, as well as some very deadly sir defense wpns...Gulf war II seen a Canadian F-18 engage a patrol boat with of all things Air to air missles, and guns....still no capability to drop PG muntions...

Our ground forces were restricted to support areas, because we lacked any really modern wpns....

Bosina, even this peace keeping operation included Canada sending over it's F-18 to patrol the skys be it for recon, or CAP(combat air patrols)

Kosvo Seen Canadian F-18 involved in bombing missions and CAP Much to our embrassment we could not at the time use percision guided munitions...so most of our missions were CAP....

Yes there is plenty of insurgent wars now ongoing around the world today , but that does not mean we should concentrate on one form of warfare, we should be preparing of the worse and everything else would be a bonus.....

[with_distinction]

Aircraft carries and a couple jets in order to protect the west coast from Fujian boat people.

[Army Guy]

These planes are supposedly tip of the sword planes. Stealth fighters meant to breach enemy air space to deliver shock and awe type power during a first assault. Essentially, these are first strike weapons systems. This is all fine and good, but should that really be the role of the fighters we buy?

When we first purchased the F-18 we where flying old F-104.s at the time the F-18 was state of the art, a twin engine multi roled aircraft....unlike the 104 which was not designed as a multi role aircraft but thats the role we used it as....

Now that the F-18 is long in the tooth we want to accomplish the same thing, lets not forget our history in making big purchases for our military, they don't happen very often, so in 25 years will the F-35 still be enough aircraft....

The F-35 is a multi roled aircraft, in fact it brings more multi role capabilities than the F-18, it will bring us into the next generation, and hopefully it will be current when we decide to spend more on fighters...in 25 years or so....As for first strike wpns, yes it can be used in that role, however i think the F-22 will be filling most of those roles ( first in intial strikes) with F-35 flying more follow up strike missions ...

Shoudln't the planes we buy be suited to Canada? The biggest problem being reported is that the F-35 is a single engine fighter which just doesn't have the range to intercept targets where they're most likely to come from which is the arctic. They'd have to send up refuelling planes which take on average 8 hours to reach their station. The only way around it I see is the way they dealt with the F-18s lack of range which was to put big external fuel tanks on the wings and belly. You'll rarely see a picture of a CF-18 without at least the belly tank. To do this on the F-35 I would imagine would negate the stealth capability. So why was such an expensive plane purchased?

F-35 has more range than any other aircraft in the runnning, as for it's being single engine, so was the F-16 and it had a steller carear....engine tech has evolved where it's no longer the same concern as it once was...As for the refueling interceptions can and often include a refueler aircraft, it's done all the time....8 hours to get on station is a myth....

as for belly tanks yes the F-35 is designed to hold external stores, belly tanks which can be dropped at any time....well before it's stealth would be negated.

Other planes mentioned have been the Eurofigher or the F-18E Super Hornet which has a much longer range than the original F-18A/C.

In 25 years where will these aircraft be....See when the US is retiring it's F-18E and F models....

[Keepitsimple]

Just to be clear, the cost of the planes is $9 billion due as the planes are delivered - probably over a 5 year period. A further $7 billion is for maintenance and is factored over 20 years. If you factor everthing over 20 years and tack on some interest, you're probably looking at something less than $1 billion per year.....still a lot of money, but we're not buying Cessnas.

[Wild Bill]

That would buy like 56 billion cereal bars or more.. maybe even 100 billion cereal bars. that would be over 2500 serial bars per canadian or a bar a day for like 7 years - and how about making them work out for those 200 calories - eg. 200 calories of exercise or lifting each day.

Then with the other million we could give em sporks.

Heck if I played my cards right I could have friends get contracted to make em, and they could treat me well for life - and I'd get 1 cereal bar each day for 7 years.

http://www.dietandfitnessresources.co.uk/fitness_exercise/10_ways.htm

You remind me of a school mother, Mr. Ashley! She sends her kid to school every day with lunch money. Everyday some bully steals it from him. She thinks the solution is to give him more lunch money!

There are people and governments in this world who WILL take what they want if they are unopposed! It takes military force to stop them. Hiding behind Uncle Sam's skirts only forces us to give up our independence and support him in every conflict, lest he stop defending us.

A strong defense is not just to prevent invasion. Nations also have foreign interests. Suppose Canada has a large investment in some middle east or tropical country and that country falls to a dictatorship that seizes all the factories and assets, with no compensation. Canadians are still hurt! Pension funds collapse, companies go out of business, people lose their jobs and can't feed their kids or keep their homes.

You don't strike me as a very practical person. Noble dreams but a bit short on how to make them actually happen! Have you ever been truly poor for a long time? Can you imagine how it feels to have someone drop off a load of cereal bars to feed you today but who leaves the structure of things exactly the same so that you have no opportunity to ESCAPE being poor?

I suppose if some other country becomes a threat we can try to bribe them off with your cereal bars. If that doesn't work we could always throw the bars at them!