Mosque going up in NYC building

[CANADIEN]

It's not what it is to me, it's what it is to him. If he can interpret it as being liberal, then doesn't that mean that he is a liberal?

Actualy, no

[Machjo]

And what if he thinks that a climate of peace and tolerance may result in a few converts? The goal of any woman and man of faith, whatever their faith is, should be to bring people to their faith through the example of a peaceful and oving life?

What counts, the only thing that counts when gauging his intentions if whether or not he wants to build bridges, not what he thinks may be the results in terms of the numbers of Muslims in the United States ten or twenty years from now.

But I suspect this will be lost on you, because I get the growing feeling that the simple fact that we are talking about Muslims is sufficient for you o come with any argument you can find just to keep them up, like the incredibly inane "he`s exploiting 9-11" argument. I am surprised I don't see any flying sink yet.

I also get the impression though that North Americans in general are becoming less tolerant of religious freedom. I think in the past there was a belief that this would ensure all voluntary conversion would be to the Christian Faith. Now that we see converts to Islam from all branches of society, from the child of a Baptist minister, the Algonquin lady down the street, and the new immigrant, suddenly freedom of religion doesn't seem so good anymore.

[kimmy]

"As a North American..."

As a North American woman, I extremely privileged to have grown up in a society where my choices in life are my own and not dictated to me by fathers or husbands or clerics.

-k

[CANADIEN]

As a North American woman, I extremely privileged to have grown up in a society where my choices in life are my own and not dictated to me by fathers or husbands or clerics.

-k

And I am sure all those women who are been told on a regular basis that their duty as good Ghristians is to obey their husband share your enthousiams.

[CANADIEN]

I also get the impression though that North Americans in general are becoming less tolerant of religious freedom. I think in the past there was a belief that this would ensure all voluntary conversion would be to the Christian Faith. Now that we see converts to Islam from all branches of society, from the child of a Baptist minister, the Algonquin lady down the street, and the new immigrant, suddenly freedom of religion doesn't seem so good anymore.

One just need to take a look at the way Catholics, for example, were treated in the past to see that there are an unsignificant number of people to whom freedom, religious or other is fine as long as it applies only to them.

[kimmy]

And I am sure all those women who are been told on a regular basis that their duty as good Ghristians is to obey their husband share your enthousiams.

Over the decades North American Christians have had sense beaten into them often enough to know better.

A significant portion of North American Muslims have not yet gone through hat maturation process, and it will take generations. It is certainly not helped by the fact that many of their leaders and teachers are themselves imported from areas where this talk of womens' independence is viewed as foolishness if not heresy.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

And I am sure all those women who are been told on a regular basis that their duty as good Ghristians is to obey their husband share your enthousiams.

There's a difference between "being told what their duty is" and being told what to do. I can tell you what I think it's your duty to do as a good Canadian, but unless your country mandates it, it means only what you choose to have it mean.

There's a reason why women feel the way they do about the way women are too often treated under Islam, and your claims that it's 'just as bad' under Christianity are completely meaningless to us.

[JerrySeinfeld]

There's a difference between "being told what their duty is" and being told what to do. I can tell you what I think it's your duty to do as a good Canadian, but unless your country mandates it, it means only what you choose to have it mean.

There's a reason why women feel the way they do about the way women are too often treated under Islam, and your claims that it's 'just as bad' under Christianity are completely meaningless to us.

Exactly. Follow the traffic.

Millions of Islamic women move to western secular democracies every year.

How many western women move to Yemen? 14?

[Machjo]

As a North American woman, I extremely privileged to have grown up in a society where my choices in life are my own and not dictated to me by fathers or husbands or clerics.

-k

And as a North American man (not that's it's relevant), I can tell you that not all Muslims are dictated to by fathers, husbands or clerics.

In fact, from my observations, converted Muslims are often freer than others. To take but one example, I remember a case in Victoria of a converted Muslim woman at a Muslim funeral. All the men were on one side, the women on the other, but she stayed with her husband on the grounds that there is no requirement in the Qur'an to divide themselves like that. She'd converted from a protestant background where the Bible is the final judge of what is Christian, and so she took that same principle to the Qur'an and Ahadith. if it wasn't in the Qur'an or Ahadith, then it was just some ethnic thing with no bearing on Islam. I can imagine she gave many local Muslims a hard time with her understanding of the religion, but it shows that we need to distinguish between Islam on the one hand, and ethnic superstitions on the other.

[CANADIEN]

Over the decades North American Christians have had sense beaten into them often enough to know better.

Yet a significan portion of the population have not gotten the message yet.

[capricorn]

There's a reason why women feel the way they do about the way women are too often treated under Islam, and your claims that it's 'just as bad' under Christianity are completely meaningless to us.

Just because women won one battle in recent history is not a reason to ignore the plight of women under the Islamic religion.

[bloodyminded]

Just because women won one battle in recent history is not a reason to ignore the plight of women under the Islamic religion.

I couldn't agree more.

[CANADIEN]

There's a difference between "being told what their duty is" and being told what to do.

BTW, did anyone said or implied that things are "as bad"? Nope. But I guess it's not a good idea to point that there are still people in our societies who have not evolved.

And no, I won't make a fool of myself by arguing the people who have a problem with me pointing to that FACT are downplaying it.

Edited September 11, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Guest American Woman]

Just because women won one battle in recent history is not a reason to ignore the plight of women under the Islamic religion.

I agree. I can't understand why so many men are defending/downplaying it. It's as if repression of women is acceptable as long as it's because of religion.

[Machjo]

Over the decades North American Christians have had sense beaten into them often enough to know better.

A significant portion of North American Muslims have not yet gone through hat maturation process, and it will take generations. It is certainly not helped by the fact that many of their leaders and teachers are themselves imported from areas where this talk of womens' independence is viewed as foolishness if not heresy.

-k

Again, you're making assumptions here. A convert to Islam will certainly benefit from his non-Muslim experiences just as a convert to Christianity will. Though granted a convert will usually be open minded almost by definition.

[bloodyminded]

I agree. I can't understand why so many men are defending/downplaying it. It's as if repression of women is acceptable as long as it's because of religion.

Actually, the leaders of both our countries are certainly and unequivocally downplaying it. That includes, of course, the women in positions of power, and all the women in our citizenries who couldn't give a good goddamn, since patriotic sentiment and "supporting one's country" trumps matters like the oppression of women in every instance. Our allies there tend to be indistinguishable from the Taliban in ideology, as well as in the oppression they have personally conducted and overseen. The woman MP, Malalai Joya, (a liberal feminist) is in hiding, her life under threat because she criticized our government allies in Afghanistan.

Are the women on the forum more vocal about this horrible truth than are the men here?

(A rhetorical question: the answer is "no.")

Edited September 11, 2010 by bloodyminded

[nicky10013]

Over the decades North American Christians have had sense beaten into them often enough to know better.

A significant portion of North American Muslims have not yet gone through hat maturation process, and it will take generations. It is certainly not helped by the fact that many of their leaders and teachers are themselves imported from areas where this talk of womens' independence is viewed as foolishness if not heresy.

-k

Multiple generations, eh? Which is why I know more female muslims that don't do things like wear the niqab or the burka than ones that do and the ones that do, do it out of pure choice.

Your fear of Islam is based on half truths and misconceptions.

[jbg]

Ah so you think that there are ties between these Muslims and 9/11.

If there weren't why did so many people blame 9/11 on "U.S. policy" and "occupation" by Israel and the U.S. of "Muslim land". Either it is connected or it isn't. Which is it?

[nicky10013]

If there weren't why did so many people blame 9/11 on "U.S. policy" and "occupation" by Israel and the U.S. of "Muslim land". Either it is connected or it isn't. Which is it?

Those things are general left wing critiques of US foreign policy. Some of which hold truth. I hear that as much from white NDPers as I do from muslims.

[Shady]

Yet a significan portion of the population have not gotten the message yet.

Really? Define significant portion.

[nicky10013]

Really? Define significant portion.

Asking him for clarification is rich, esepcially considering you haven't been able to answer how I'm anti-american.

[bush_cheney2004]

If there weren't why did so many people blame 9/11 on "U.S. policy" and "occupation" by Israel and the U.S. of "Muslim land". Either it is connected or it isn't. Which is it?

I like this jab....very astute. Let's see how they skirt around it.

[Shady]

Asking him for clarification is rich, esepcially considering you haven't been able to answer how I'm anti-american.

I didn't have to. BC already took care of that.

[nicky10013]

I didn't have to. BC already took care of that.

BC lies as much as you do. So, I'd like to see YOUR proof.

[jbg]

I like this jab....very astute. Let's see how they skirt around it.

They'll do the waltz or the cha-cha-cha or ignore it.