Mosque going up in NYC building

[dre]

Stopping this project might piss off third world Muslims? Who cares? They're pissed off already. That bell has already rung.

But mainstream Americans have not-- to this point-- become pissed off at Muslims. This project offers the potential for that to happen.

-k

I think that the Americans who project anger over this mosque onto the Muslim population as a whole are racists, that probably had an axe to grind long before any of us ever heard of this project. I also believe that people who would do that are in the minority, and that most Americans are smarter than that... including most who are against the project.

[CANADIEN]

Do you think people will still see Park 51 as a friendly outreach project when it becomes a topic of Islamist rhetoric?

-k

Actually, yes some people will still see it that way, because what they will see beyond the voices of the nutcases to those of those who are actually promoting the project. Not to worry, I don't expect you to graps that simple of context.

But let put it an other way. Scr*w the Islamists... I will not let them decide how I am to view the efforts of Muslims who are making it clear that they won't accept their message.

[CANADIEN]

I think that the Americans who project anger over this mosque onto the Muslim population as a whole are racists, that probably had an axe to grind long before any of us ever heard of this project. I also believe that people who would do that are in the minority, and that most Americans are smarter than that... including most who are against the project.

Indeed.

[kimmy]

But that narrative would be completely untrue. "Islamists" didnt build jack shit. We cant worry about people who are simple enough buy into that kind of shit... theyre beyond hope anyways and will believe what they want to believe.

All that matters is that it's a mosque on "the rubble of the World Trade Center". The rest of the distinctions will be lost on the Islamists.

Only stupid people will believe that though. Because this building ISNT the "enemy's" symbol. They dont own it, and have nothing to do with it, and its the last thing they would have wanted anyways.

All that matters is that it's a mosque on "the rubble of the World Trade Center". The rest of the distinctions will be lost on the Islamists. They'll vanish in America too, once Islamists make this site a topic of inflammatory rhetoric.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

I can't think of anything more offensive that to have your beliefs blamed for the murder of your loved one, which is essentially what the proests are about.

Nope, that's not what the protests are about; "essentially" or otherwise.

[kimmy]

no - to make it, as you say, "exactly it"... just carry your assertion to it's logical conclusion. Just say you believe the U.S. State Department is enabling your exploiter. That will make "it exactly". You're so quick to dismiss the official acceptance and sanctioning the U.S. government extends to Rauf... dismiss that in favour of your exploitation labeling. C'mon... just make it, "exactly it". Just say it - sure you can.

Rephrase that so it makes sense, and get back to me.

-k

[kimmy]

Actually, yes some people will still see it that way, because what they will see beyond the voices of the nutcases to those of those who are actually promoting the project. Not to worry, I don't expect you to graps that simple of context.

But let put it an other way. Scr*w the Islamists... I will not let them decide how I am to view the efforts of Muslims who are making it clear that they won't accept their message.

As Imam Rauf himself has said (speaking of Muslim anger at America), emotions are more powerful than logic.

He's (unwittingly, I'm sure) giving Islamists a tool to inflame American emotions, and all the logic in the world isn't going to fix it.

-k

[CANADIEN]

All that matters is that it's a mosque on "the rubble of the World Trade Center". The rest of the distinctions will be lost on the Islamists.

All that matters is that it's a mosque on "the rubble of the World Trade Center". The rest of the distinctions will be lost on the Islamists. They'll vanish in America too, once Islamists make this site a topic of inflammatory rhetoric.

-k

Feel free to give any importance to what a bunch of murderous thugs think. I won't, beyond saying that what they think is not even fit for my toilet.

Edited September 11, 2010 by CANADIEN

[dre]

Do you think people will still see Park 51 as a friendly outreach project when it becomes a topic of Islamist rhetoric?

-k

I think people with any sort of grip on logic and reason are to ignore Islamist rhetoric. And Islamists will loudly proclaim victory whether this project goes ahead or not. But really having the project stopped would be a much bigger victory for Islamists than if it goes ahead.

[kimmy]

no - to make it, as you say, "exactly it"... just carry your assertion to it's logical conclusion. Just say you believe the U.S. State Department is enabling your exploiter. That will make "it exactly". You're so quick to dismiss the official acceptance and sanctioning the U.S. government extends to Rauf... dismiss that in favour of your exploitation labeling. C'mon... just make it, "exactly it". Just say it - sure you can.

Ok, I've had a team of cryptographers go over this, and they tell me they think you're trying to say that the US State Department's sanction of his middle east mission proves that his Park 51 project isn't an attempt to exploit 9/11.

My response is: that's ridiculous.

-k

[kimmy]

Feel free to give any importance to what a bunch of murderous thugs think. I won't, beyond saying that what they think is not even fit for my toilet.

I think people with any sort of grip on logic and reason are to ignore Islamist rhetoric. And Islamists will loudly proclaim victory whether this project goes ahead or not. But really having the project stopped would be a much bigger victory for Islamists than if it goes ahead.

To think that logic and reason will win out over emotion in anything involving 9/11 is utterly naive.

-k

[dre]

As Imam Rauf himself has said (speaking of Muslim anger at America), emotions are more powerful than logic.

He's (unwittingly, I'm sure) giving Islamists a tool to inflame American emotions, and all the logic in the world isn't going to fix it.

-k

He's (unwittingly, I'm sure) giving Islamists a tool to inflame American emotions, and all the logic in the world isn't going to fix it. -k

Its not Islamists that are trying to position this as a wedge issue (although theyre probably quite enjoying the spectacle), its AMERICANS.

But it wont work, and it wont become the lightening rod for contraversy and divisiveness that some are claiming. Eventually people will move on, and this place will just be another church that nobody pays attention to.

[CANADIEN]

As Imam Rauf himself has said (speaking of Muslim anger at America), emotions are more powerful than logic.

He's (unwittingly, I'm sure) giving Islamists a tool to inflame American emotions, and all the logic in the world isn't going to fix it.

-k

If anybody is (unwittingly in most cases, very much on purpose is others) giving any ammunition to Islamists, it's the opponents to the project.

"They hate us so much that even gestures of openings are rebuked" is a much more potent recruitement tools for any hate-mongerer than "we have a building on a site of our victory". Far, far more.

[CANADIEN]

To think that logic and reason will win out over emotion in anything involving 9/11 is utterly naive.

-k

You may have a point. After all, logic is utterly missing from your posts.

[Shady]

Its not Islamists that are trying to position this as a wedge issue (although theyre probably quite enjoying the spectacle

Like I've already said. The Muslim world is pretty fucked up if they care that much about a mosque being built in New York. If a Catholic church is forbidden from being build in the Middle East, I couldn't care less.

[dre]

To think that logic and reason will win out over emotion in anything involving 9/11 is utterly naive.

-k

I think that most people will realize the narrative that mosque is a victory monument for Islamists is bunk. Sure... a few people will buy it, but Im not any more worried about what those people think than what Islamists thing. Stupid is a hard thing to fix!

But youre wrong about Americans... they arent all reactionary dolts that are blinded by the first bit of emotionalism they see. Like I keep saying, the vast majority of Americans will tire of this and move on.

[CANADIEN]

Like I've already said. The Muslim world is pretty fucked up if they care that much about a mosque being built in New York. If a Catholic church is forbidden from being build in the Middle East, I couldn't care less.

Oh well... nobody would dream of accusing you of being in favour of freedom of religion anyway.

[CANADIEN]

I think that most people will realize the narrative that mosque is a victory monument for Islamists is bunk. Sure... a few people will buy it, but Im not any more worried about what those people think than what Islamists thing. Stupid is a hard thing to fix!

But youre wrong about Americans... they arent all reactionary dolts that are blinded by the first bit of emotionalism they see. Like I keep saying, the vast majority of Americans will tire of this and move on.

I am not as sure as you are on that. What I am sure though is that Al-Quaeda benefits more from anything they can pass out as exemples of Western intolerence than from the opposite.

[Shady]

Oh well... nobody would dream of accusing you of being in favour of freedom of religion anyway.

Oh well...nobody could ream of accusing you of being in favour of freedom of speech and freedom to protest.

[waldo]

no - to make it, as you say, "exactly it"... just carry your assertion to it's logical conclusion. Just say you believe the U.S. State Department is enabling your exploiter. That will make "it exactly". You're so quick to dismiss the official acceptance and sanctioning the U.S. government extends to Rauf... dismiss that in favour of your exploitation labeling. C'mon... just make it, "exactly it". Just say it - sure you can.

Ok, I've had a team of cryptographers go over this, and they tell me they think you're trying to say that the US State Department's sanction of his middle east mission proves that his Park 51 project isn't an attempt to exploit 9/11.

My response is: that's ridiculous.

my crack research staff has been attempting to help you out; however, they've come up empty. Perhaps you could advise why the U.S. Government would aid & abet the guy you label as an exploiter... they've sponsored Rauf on 3 extensive trips through the middle-East, as far back as 2007. Since you've now moved the scale forward and speak of "proof", perhaps you could step-up your game and bring forward the "proof", as you say, that supports your exploitation labeling.

in the absence of your presented proof, my response to your exploitation labeling is: that's ridiculous.

[Machjo]

Nope, that's not what the protests are about; "essentially" or otherwise.

Of course not.

Says one mourner to the other:

"I'm not blaming you for the death of your loved one, but for you to build a place of worship that represents the very ideology that killed my son is offensive to me."

The second mourner retorts:

"Are you saying the Islamic centre that I've given money towards via my religious community represents the ideology that killed my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Seeing that I am a member of that community, then you are telling me that I am supporting the ideology that killed my daughter."

"No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Islam killed my son."

"So, did Islam kill my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Well, I'm a Muslim. So you are saying that my religion, my beliefs, my 'ideology' killed my daughter."

If I missed something here, please feel free to correct it.

[Shady]

my crack research staff has been attempting to help you out; however, they've come up empty. Perhaps you could advise why the U.S. Government would aid & abet the guy you label as an exploiter

She already did. Convenience. You still don't get that?

[Machjo]

Nope, that's not what the protests are about; "essentially" or otherwise.

Of course not.

Says one mourner to the other:

"I'm not blaming you for the death of your loved one, but for you to build a place of worship that represents the very ideology that killed my son is offensive to me."

The second mourner retorts:

"Are you saying the Islamic centre that I've given money towards via my religious community represents the ideology that killed my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Seeing that I am a member of that community, then you are telling me that I am supporting the ideology that killed my daughter."

"No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Islam killed my son."

"So, did Islam kill my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Well, I'm a Muslim. So you are saying that my religion, my beliefs, my 'ideology' killed my daughter."

If I missed something here, please feel free to correct it.

[Guest American Woman]

Of course not.

Says one mourner to the other:

"I'm not blaming you for the death of your loved one, but for you to build a place of worship that represents the very ideology that killed my son is offensive to me."

The second mourner retorts:

"Are you saying the Islamic centre that I've given money towards via my religious community represents the ideology that killed my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Seeing that I am a member of that community, then you are telling me that I am supporting the ideology that killed my daughter."

"No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Islam killed my son."

"So, did Islam kill my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Well, I'm a Muslim. So you are saying that my religion, my beliefs, my 'ideology' killed my daughter."

If I missed something here, please feel free to correct it.

Sorry, but I can't fix the voices in your head; you need more help to "correct" that than I can give you here.

Seriously. All you did was make up dialog to support your claim. It proves nothing. I can just as easily make up dialog to support mine, but I won't be wasting my time doing that. Either you get it, or you don't; and from what I've seen, you don't even try to understand anything that doesn't support your views.

[nicky10013]

Of course not.

Says one mourner to the other:

"I'm not blaming you for the death of your loved one, but for you to build a place of worship that represents the very ideology that killed my son is offensive to me."

The second mourner retorts:

"Are you saying the Islamic centre that I've given money towards via my religious community represents the ideology that killed my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Seeing that I am a member of that community, then you are telling me that I am supporting the ideology that killed my daughter."

"No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Islam killed my son."

"So, did Islam kill my daughter?"

"Yes."

"Well, I'm a Muslim. So you are saying that my religion, my beliefs, my 'ideology' killed my daughter."

If I missed something here, please feel free to correct it.

Fantastic post.