Mosque going up in NYC building

[kimmy]

So are you saying that all Christians, every single one of them, support killing abortion doctors?

The same applies here. Your brush is way too wide.

I just thought the ending of your little fantasy-dialog was pretty ironic, considering that the Islamic extremists who killed your fantasy Muslim's daughter are probably the same Islamic extremists who are planting bombs or poisoned gas outside girls' schools in Afghanistan.

Would Muslims kill Muslim daughters? Some of them sure would.

-k

[Machjo]

The problem is, no matter how fine the message, if it's the right message at the wrong place and time, it it could very likely do more harm than good; and that appears to be what's happening.

There's a wrong time to be discussing peace and coexistence? What should we be discussing then? War and division?

[nicky10013]

That his message may be laudable does not alter that he is, indeed, exploiting 9/11 to spread it.

If his message is peace and coexistence, then I think it's a fine message. If his message is "Islamic Dawa from the Rubble of the World Trade Center", then I feel little reason to think highly of it. "Come for the swimming pool, and stay for the sermon!" Yippee.

-k

HE'S A MAN OF THE CLOTH!!!!!!!!! Why WOULDN'T it be a sermon??????????? Whether he uses religious philosophy or other philosophy to spread his message which we've agreed to as being non-radical, what difference does it make?

[Machjo]

I just thought the ending of your little fantasy-dialog was pretty ironic, considering that the Islamic extremists who killed your fantasy Muslim's daughter are probably the same Islamic extremists who are planting bombs or poisoned gas outside girls' schools in Afghanistan.

Would Muslims kill Muslim daughters? Some of them sure would.

-k

Many Afghan men sleep with boys too. Does that make it sanctioned by the Qur'an?

[Shady]

so Islam is now experiencing its, unfortunately. We still cannot blame the religion itself

Why not? You've admitted that Islam is going through it's dark ages. If it's going through it's dark ages, then that means it's reponsible for some pretty bad things.

[nicky10013]

I just thought the ending of your little fantasy-dialog was pretty ironic, considering that the Islamic extremists who killed your fantasy Muslim's daughter are probably the same Islamic extremists who are planting bombs or poisoned gas outside girls' schools in Afghanistan.

Would Muslims kill Muslim daughters? Some of them sure would.

-k

There's a difference between the fervour of religious beliefs in say, North America than in developing countries, which is where this stuff happens. To assume they're the same is simply wrong.

[kimmy]

so... there are different kinds of 'kimmy exploitation', after all. Since you applied the label... since you brought forward a proof attachment... which of these is the 'kimmy exploitation' you applied to Rauf... and where is your proof - hey?

I make no claim about Imam Rauf's intentions at all, beyond the fact that he is exploiting 9/11 to spread his message. Since you've agreed to that, I see nothing left to discuss with you. Whether his intentions are "good" is a highly subjective matter, and I won't speculate on them.

Why don't you give up before you make a bigger fool of yourself?

-k

[capricorn]

HE'S A MAN OF THE CLOTH!!!!!!!!!

So's a tailor.

[Guest American Woman]

There's a wrong time to be discussing peace and coexistence? What should we be discussing then? War and division?

Why did you purposely refer to only part of what I said? I clearly said "wrong place and time," and the answer is yes, there can be a wrong "place and time," and clearly that applies to this location.

What should we be discussing then? War and division?

Was my comment about the message?? Since I referred to it as a "fine" message and the "right message," most people would get that it wasn't. I guess the key word there is "most" ....

[Machjo]

Why not? You've admitted that Islam is going through it's dark ages. If it's going through it's dark ages, then that means it's reponsible for some pretty bad things.

No. What it means is that people have corrupted it. When Christian pogroms were busy slaughtering the Cathars and other 'heretics', that was not the fault of the Christian Faith itself, but rather the way it was corrupted. I'm sure many Muslims of the time (Islam was experiencing its Golden Age at the time, with many Jews and unorthodox Christians escaping to Moorish Spain for protection) must have been sickened at how corrupt the Christian Faith had become. in spite of that, Christians and Jews had full religious freedom, and the national library even placed the Qur'an an Bible next to each other. Just read Gibbon's Decline and Fall.

Now, I'm sure some so-called Muslim bigots of the time likely called for the suppression of Christians because of what was going on in Christian Europe at the time. These are the same ones now protesting the Mosque today.

[Machjo]

Why did you purposely refer to only part of what I said? I clearly said "wrong place and time," and the answer is yes, there can be a wrong "place and time," and clearly that applies to this location.

Was my comment about the message?? Since I referred to it as a "fine" message and the "right message," most people would get that it wasn't. I guess the key word there is "most" ....

I disagree. There never is a wrong place and time to discuss a good idea.

[nicky10013]

Whether his intentions are "good" is a highly subjective matter, and I won't speculate on them.

-k

Is it really because it's highly subjective, or do you just not like the actual answer.

[kimmy]

HE'S A MAN OF THE CLOTH!!!!!!!!! Why WOULDN'T it be a sermon??????????? Whether he uses religious philosophy or other philosophy to spread his message which we've agreed to as being non-radical, what difference does it make?

As a North American woman, I see no reason to celebrate the furthering of Islam in our countries.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

I disagree. There never is a wrong place and time to discuss a good idea.

And I, and many others, disagree with you. We feel it's the wrong place at this time.

[nicky10013]

As a North American woman, I see no reason to celebrate the furthering of Islam in our countries.

-k

Why would that be? Because what certain sects of Islam practice over seas despite there being absolutely no connection to how western muslims practice?

[kimmy]

Is it really because it's highly subjective, or do you just not like the actual answer.

Despite your claims that he is a liberal, he seems like a traditionalist, a firm believer in Sharia. His stated mission of building bridges seems more to me like making America more accommodating of Islam. Whether that's a good intention is highly subjective, and you already know how I feel about it.

-k

[CANADIEN]

As a North American woman, I see no reason to celebrate the furthering of Islam in our countries.

-k

Then don't celebrate it. But nice going from "the Centre is a bad idea because Islamists may use it as a symbol" to "the Centre is bad because it,s Muslim"

[Shady]

Never forget.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8FQiJ-Rcw&feature=player_embedded

The very least this Imam could do is show a little sensitiviy. :angry:

[waldo]

That his message may be laudable does not alter that he is, indeed, exploiting 9/11 to spread it.

If his message is peace and coexistence, then I think it's a fine message. If his message is "Islamic Dawa from the Rubble of the World Trade Center", then I feel little reason to think highly of it. "Come for the swimming pool, and stay for the sermon!" Yippee.

so... there are different kinds of 'kimmy exploitation', after all. Since you applied the label... since you brought forward a proof attachment... which of these is the 'kimmy exploitation' you applied to Rauf... and where is your proof - hey?

I make no claim about Imam Rauf's intentions at all, beyond the fact that he is exploiting 9/11 to spread his message. Since you've agreed to that, I see nothing left to discuss with you. Whether his intentions are "good" is a highly subjective matter, and I won't speculate on them.

Why don't you give up before you make a bigger fool of yourself?

no - you clearly applied an exploitation label as a negative/"bad" attachment... you provided no qualifying, as you say, "proof", to that end. It's only when we peel the onion off your foolishly applied (negative/"bad") labeling, that we find, in fact... positive associations to Rauf's intent (whether you presume to continue labeling that positive association as exploitation is... your call... which may or may not fit with your continued desire to make even a bigger fool of yourself).

[Machjo]

As a North American woman, I see no reason to celebrate the furthering of Islam in our countries.

-k

Ah, I see. I'm a North American man too, my mother's side tracing her rots back to New France 400 years ago; my father a mixture of Irish and Cree, Cree going back a likely 30,000 years at least. But guess what; that is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I could try to pull the card that because I've been here longer that I therefore have more say, but that would be totally false. So you're being a North American is irrelevant. By the way, I know First Nations people who believe in Muhammad, just as I'm sure there are straight-off-the boat immigrants from the UK to North America who hate Muslims. To bring in our family tree is totally irrelevant to the questions at hand here.

[Machjo]

Never forget.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8FQiJ-Rcw&feature=player_embedded

The very least this Imam could do is show a little sensitiviy. :angry:

Some of those falling bodies may have been Muslims too. Remember, Rauf's own congregation lost members to 9/11. So how best to commemorate them? Or does it only matter if the Muslim victims were captured in that specific video or it doesn't count?

[Shady]

no - you clearly applied an exploitation label as a negative/"bad" attachment

Exploiting isn't necessarily a negative. I exploit the carrots in my garden on a regular basis. Seriously dude, give it up. You've lost. You look ridiculous.

[Shady]

So how best to commemorate them?

They'll be part of the planned museum and memorial. Just like everybody else.

[nicky10013]

Despite your claims that he is a liberal, he seems like a traditionalist, a firm believer in Sharia. His stated mission of building bridges seems more to me like making America more accommodating of Islam. Whether that's a good intention is highly subjective, and you already know how I feel about it.

-k

He seems to be a believer in Sharia, eh? Any proof to back that up? The Imam is a Sufi Muslim. Good description of what they are here.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/08/my-take-whats-a-sufi-the-imam-behind-new-yorks-islamic-center-is-one/

http://www.mahablog.com/2010/08/11/imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-is-a-sufi/

[CANADIEN]

Ah, I see. I'm a North American man too, my mother's side tracing her rots back to New France 400 years ago; my father a mixture of Irish and Cree, Cree going back a likely 30,000 years at least. But guess what; that is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I could try to pull the card that because I've been here longer that I therefore have more say, but that would be totally false. So you're being a North American is irrelevant. By the way, I know First Nations people who believe in Muhammad, just as I'm sure there are straight-off-the boat immigrants from the UK to North America who hate Muslims. To bring in our family tree is totally irrelevant to the questions at hand here.

Err... I may be wrong here, but I fail to see how kimmy was playing an ethnic origin card.