One more time Gun Registry

[Argus]

the gun registry was costly to implement; relatively speaking, it is not costly to operate. Other past MLW threads have beaten on the history and reasons for the implementation cost - there are no shortage of contributors to that implementation cost, inclusive of government bungling as well as tactics deployed by those against the gun registry.

It could be operated, but if it's to serve any real purpose it needs to be massively overhauled. The system was poorly designed, doesn't track the right information, doesn't allow for variations on how manufacturers identify their products... basically it's full of holes and can't possibly be relied on for anything.

Errors keep piling up

[Argus]

Toronto Police Chief William Blair, president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police - We lose the gun registry at our peril:

Ask them if the value is so high they'd be willing to contribute even one dollar from their budgets and watch them back away.

[eyeball]

As society atomizes and fractures, people tend to lose faith in human beings, perceiving everything as competition and potential confrontation...and so begin looking for something to blame.

Immigration and crime are two perennial favourites.

I think it's our institutions people are losing faith in myself. If society is atomizing it's probably because people's circles of trust are shrinking.

What's so weird is how those people who persist in endorsing more power for the state to come down where it comes down the hardest on people's backs often eschew that same state being used to lighten people's load in a competitive confrontational world.

[Topaz]

Said it once and I'll say it again, let the farmers and hunters have their guns, make it harder to get the shells and the bullets. Register your name, free of charge, government does a background check, then you can have a certain amount of shells and bullets. Lets remember though, it wasn't a hand gun that killed the two RCMP out west. Active police like it because they can check to see if the owner of a home they are about to entry has a gun or guns. By NOT knowing, an person could get killed or hurt if the police panics and thinks the home owners has a weapon in their hands.

[bloodyminded]

I think it's our institutions people are losing faith in myself.

Yes, and there's some sanity to this phenomenon, although some dangers as well. For example--the very real astroturfing aside--I have no doubt that large swaths of the "tea party" movement to the south are ordinary, decent, hardworking folks, perfectly cognizant that government doesn't represent them very well. Unfortunately, they are often misled, in part thanks to the profiteering leadership of men and women who are fully ensconced IN one buttock of that fat government.

If society is atomizing it's probably because people's circles of trust are shrinking.

Yeah, it's also the loss of any sense of community, in which we're expected to be little more than bland consumers who think putting Family First means to resent everybody else.

What's so weird is how those people who persist in endorsing more power for the state to come down where it comes down the hardest on people's backs often eschew that same state being used to lighten people's load in a competitive confrontational world.

I agree. There's an awareness (however incoherent) about the tyranny of official government; but a simultaneous unawareness of the (related) tyranny of corporatism.

That's why the Right, experts at manipulation, have so many people thinking their problems are traceable to the "liberal elite"...when in fact, so far as this theory has real value, it is actually the "elite" as a whole. The liberal part of the spectrum is not the sole danger, obviously.

[M.Dancer]

Active police like it because they can check to see if the owner of a home they are about to entry has a gun or guns. By NOT knowing, an person could get killed or hurt if the police panics and thinks the home owners has a weapon in their hands.

Yet they don't know whether the guns are present or somewhere else....nor does the knowledge that they don't have reg'd weapons tell them if they in fact do have weapons.

It could be a lot cheaper and simpler to check if the person(s) have an FAC.

[capricorn]

The system was poorly designed, doesn't track the right information, doesn't allow for variations on how manufacturers identify their products... basically it's full of holes and can't possibly be relied on for anything.

One guy decided to test the registry and registered his Mikita power drill just to see what would happen. The bureaucracy certified it and sent him his accreditation. No joke!

[Handsome Rob]

Said it once and I'll say it again, let the farmers and hunters have their guns, make it harder to get the shells and the bullets.

Bingo. Much easier to stop smuggling of ammo too!

Register your name, free of charge, government does a background check, then you can have a certain amount of shells and bullets.

They already do background checks for a basic firearms license. Restricting volume of ammo is pointless, removing the 18 year old kid at Wallmart selling ammo is a good thing. Make them go to real local hunting stores, where the shopkeeper that is more responsible than the law can exercise discretion on who to sell and not sell ammo too. Supports local business too.

Lets remember though, it wasn't a hand gun that killed the two RCMP out west. Active police like it because they can check to see if the owner of a home they are about to entry has a gun or guns. By NOT knowing, an person could get killed or hurt if the police panics and thinks the home owners has a weapon in their hands.

Frivolous. No way to really tell. I live in city A, my firearms are registered in city B, and stored in city C because as a responsible owner without a safe, I take greater measures at firearms control than the government does.

Any cop that takes that computer seriously isn't worth his/her skin, the 70% error rate is more than accurate.

One guy decided to test the registry and registered his Mikita power drill just to see what would happen. The bureaucracy certified it and sent him his accreditation. No joke!

Thousands of glue guns have been registered.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Handsome Rob

[eyeball]

Thousands of glue guns have been registered.

Bureaucratic incompetence like government waste are separate issues that are entirely unrelated to making Canadians safer from a proliferation of guns and crime.

Incompetence and waste in our public institutions have more to do with governance and democracy. Unfortunately the same bozos who endorse incompetently preventing crime by wasting money on things like pot for example don't spend nearly as much time as they should on making governments more accountable and transparent across the board.

More cops and more prisons seem to be their solutions to everything.

[Wilber]

Active police like it because they can check to see if the owner of a home they are about to entry has a gun or guns. By NOT knowing, an person could get killed or hurt if the police panics and thinks the home owners has a weapon in their hands.

No it doesn't, it tells them if someone who their records show as living in a particular home is the owner of a registered firearm. That's all. Any police officer would be an idiot to assume there are no firearms in a home just because the registry doesn't show a registered owner living there. Not surprisingly, they don't make those assumptions.

[Smallc]

I'm so happy you said that last part Smallc. Cynicism is a very good quality to have at the polls.

I don't consider it to be good at all...it's too bad that's my only option.

[Muddy]

Said it once and I'll say it again, let the farmers and hunters have their guns, make it harder to get the shells and the bullets. Register your name, free of charge, government does a background check, then you can have a certain amount of shells and bullets. Lets remember though, it wasn't a hand gun that killed the two RCMP out west. Active police like it because they can check to see if the owner of a home they are about to entry has a gun or guns. By NOT knowing, an person could get killed or hurt if the police panics and thinks the home owners has a weapon in their hands.

Your right it was rifles that were used. Yet we have the registration and what help did that do to help those young poor young fellas. That should settle the arguement . Two billion for what? Bad guys will still be with us and they will arm themselves.

[punked]

Your right it was rifles that were used. Yet we have the registration and what help did that do to help those young poor young fellas. That should settle the arguement . Two billion for what? Bad guys will still be with us and they will arm themselves.

AND the AG said will cost millions if not billions more to update the registry to make it usable, and useful.

[waldo]

AND the AG said will cost millions if not billions more to update the registry to make it usable, and useful.

citation?

what's up punked... trying to form your basis for possible NDP complicity in helping the Conservatives dismantle the gun registry? With the Liberals no longer giving your NDP cover, let's just see what your party is really prepared to do. Yes... I'm sure that NDP move to dismantle the gun registry will be heavily scrutinized by urban voters. You're up NDP/Jack Layton!

[waldo]

Your right it was rifles that were used. Yet we have the registration and what help did that do to help those young poor young fellas. That should settle the arguement . Two billion for what? Bad guys will still be with us and they will arm themselves.

since you're specifically speaking to those (4)RCMP officers killed in Alberta, what motivation do you attach to RCMP Commissioner Ian Atkins for his support of the gun registry? As I understand, the RCMP actually utilized the gun registry to assist in the conviction of two men as accessories to the murder of those four RCMP officers. Yes... by definition 'bad guys' don't obey the laws - does that mean we dismantle all the laws?

[waldo]

hey now! Who is that guy around here that keeps linking to and quoting from the website of anti-gun registry Conservative MP Garry Breitkreuz?

Tory MP apologizes for suggesting Ignatieff should be beaten 'black and blue' over gun registry

A Conservative MP is apologizing for issuing a news release that compared Canadian police chiefs to a cult and urged Liberals to beat their leader, Michael Ignatieff, "black and blue."

[Argus]

hey now! Who is that guy around here that keeps linking to and quoting from the website of anti-gun registry Conservative MP Garry Breitkreuz?

Tory MP apologizes for suggesting Ignatieff should be beaten 'black and blue' over gun registry

Did you have a point? Let me guess, was it that, despite all the facts he's put out, much of it obtained under the Access to Information requests he makes of the government, despite the statistics and reasoned arguments, his position should be ignored because he or a staffer put out a news release using intemperate language?

[Shakeyhands]

hey now! Who is that guy around here that keeps linking to and quoting from the website of anti-gun registry Conservative MP Garry Breitkreuz?

Tory MP apologizes for suggesting Ignatieff should be beaten 'black and blue' over gun registry

Classy.... The funny thing is that this sort of thing happens almost everytime a CPC member opens his mouth without getting approval from the PMO. Harper will back him.

[Muddy]

since you're specifically speaking to those (4)RCMP officers killed in Alberta, what motivation do you attach to RCMP Commissioner Ian Atkins for his support of the gun registry? As I understand, the RCMP actually utilized the gun registry to assist in the conviction of two men as accessories to the murder of those four RCMP officers. Yes... by definition 'bad guys' don't obey the laws - does that mean we dismantle all the laws?

Of course we don`t dismantle all the laws. but we certainly should not continue down a failed road with laws that are not workable. The gun registry has proven itself to be useless. Four young fellas dead because of sending them into a gunfight unequipped with the fire power of a criminal who did not register his guns.

The same goes on the streets of the big cities where Cops are out gunned by the Gang Bangers who just have not got the message they should register their guns. 2 billion wasted and gun crime continues.Any other good ideas Allen Rock? Oh yah your busy at U of O making sure no one says anything nasty that may hurt some liberal feelings.

[eyeball]

we certainly should not continue down a failed road with laws that are not workable

No we shouldn't. We should have just gone after the guns and locked them up in registered shooting ranges and armories.

As for guns coming across the border, seal it and search everything and everyone that crosses it.

As for the sort of gun crime that gets both hard-core gun nuts and anti-gun nuts in a lather, end prohibition. As far as boondoggles go prohibition makes the gun registry look like a Swiss watch.

[Handsome Rob]

No we shouldn't. We should have just gone after the guns and locked them up in registered shooting ranges and armories.

You realise there are around 5 million firearms owners in Canada, no? It's estimated that only 25-50% of non-restricted firearms have been registered, and the estimated accuracy rate of the registry reduces those figures even less.

Not only is such an idea unworkable, as far more firearms are used by hunters than target shooters, no politician with a job outlook greater than a week would attempt such a thing.

Here's an interesting paper:

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&ved=0CBwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfu.ca%2F~mauser%2Fpapers%2Fasc%2FMauserASC01.pdf&rct=j&q=number+of+gun+owners+in+canada&ei=HhfPS7GWKJSAswOSg_3eDQ&usg=AFQjCNEeU0cG_oFPWFdsQyPEs9WSho_FDA

As for guns coming across the border, seal it and search everything and everyone that crosses it.

A rather American outlook don't you think? I wonder what the consequences would be if they chose to reciprocate. Shall we as well, have blackhawk helicopters patrolling and put up a fence?

With the Liberals no longer giving your NDP cover, let's just see what your party is really prepared to do. Yes... I'm sure that NDP move to dismantle the gun registry will be heavily scrutinized by urban voters. You're up NDP/Jack Layton!

Broad opinion/assumption on my part, but judging by the response in the blogosphere, CBC comments & such, the usual level of registry defence just doesn't appear to be there. Discussions such as these, I would think generally aren't frequented by the 55+ (Average age of firearms owners in Canada) Conservative firearms owners.

I'm kinda wondering if Autocratic Iggy is facing potential 'Whip'lash over his actions.

[eyeball]

You realise there are around 5 million firearms owners in Canada, no? It's estimated that only 25-50% of non-restricted firearms have been registered, and the estimated accuracy rate of the registry reduces those figures even less.

Not only is such an idea unworkable, as far more firearms are used by hunters than target shooters, no politician with a job outlook greater than a week would attempt such a thing.

Here's an interesting paper:

From your source...

First, I must admit that solid numbers are very difficult to get. I thought I would have been able to get more than I have by the time this paper was to be presented.

Exactly. This sort of uncertainty is why guns should be locked up in public armories. I'm not saying outlaw them.

A rather American outlook don't you think? I wonder what the consequences would be if they chose to reciprocate. Shall we as well, have blackhawk helicopters patrolling and put up a fence?

We live next to a country that wants to make guns more available, they live next to a country that want's to legalize pot. It sounds like we're well on the way to this scenario anyway.

Edited April 21, 2010 by eyeball

[myata]

At the time of introduction of mandatory registration in 2001 registration fee was $10 (per up to 10 guns). I'm not sure what is the current registration fee, but in all likelihood it's in the same range of peanuts for a law abiding citizen.

Registration is a non issue for anybody (it's guns we're talking about, not cars, for which annual registration in Ontario costs from $75) other than super vocal gun lobby that wants to pull in the US-style idea that possession (and eventually carrying) a firearm is a right.

Gun control is a must in a safe society and registration of guns is a necessary and even critical component of it. (For once) I applaud Iggy's decision to support it, unquestionnably and without confusion or backtracking. I'm not so sure about whipping the vote, I believe the distinction is artificial (if the government brings in a bill, it's OK to whip, but if it's one of it's MPs, it suddenly becomes a matter of democracy?). Sounds like another of any number of privileges, prerogatives and other weird convolutions we have in this system as an alternative to clear and transparent work of government and legislation. No you can't have yourself represented by your preferred party, forget that, but as a next best we allow MPs of the behemoth duo to vote their mind (on very special occasions couple of times a year).

Edited April 21, 2010 by myata

[Argus]

Gun control is a must in a safe society and registration of guns is a necessary and even critical component of it.

And yet we manged to get along for decades without it... somehow.

And you supporters can't point to any substantial value the registry adds, or how it prevents gun crime - which was the reason given for its development.

[Wilber]

since you're specifically speaking to those (4)RCMP officers killed in Alberta, what motivation do you attach to RCMP Commissioner Ian Atkins for his support of the gun registry? As I understand, the RCMP actually utilized the gun registry to assist in the conviction of two men as accessories to the murder of those four RCMP officers. Yes... by definition 'bad guys' don't obey the laws - does that mean we dismantle all the laws?

Point is, it didn't prevent the crime. If you want to make a case for it solving crimes, you could make the same case for cctv cameras on every corner.