The Guergis affair, politics, and the presumption of innocence

[Machjo]

Has Parliament forgotten a few basic precepts of our country, such as:

one is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and

the judicial, executive, and legislative branches of government are to remain distinct?

As for Parliament, it is the legislative branch of government, and as such ought not to intervene in the affairs of the judicial. The PM believed there was an issue and turned it over to the RCMP to determine. Wise move. As for removing Guergis from office, that's a decision for the government to make.

So why is the opposition so determined in sticking its nose in judicial affairs that have nothing to do with it?

Now as for allegations that the government knew of torture in Afghanistan, that's another matter since it's not the private affair one one individual MP but rather a matter of government policy and oversight. Yet even then, it's up to the judicial branch to make any accusations of criminality and politicians ought to keep their noses out of that. They're job is to focus on what legislation they could introduce to prevent it from happening again. They are after all the legislative and not judicial branch.

What is it about the separation of the three branches that MP's don't seem to get?

Now to be fair, the Conservatives are just as bad as the opposition on this (remember Dhalla?).

So I'm not pointing fingers only at the oppositoin here, but to most MP's. When will they learn to limit themselves to their branch of government and not stick their noses in the affairs of other branches?

[M.Dancer]

Yay!

3 Jaffer threads and counting...

[Muddy]

The pony is wounded and you can tell by the vultures circling above. They can`t resist the temptation of the blood.No proof ,no hearing of facts in a court of law, just unsubstantiated rumour. Fly with the flock if you must you ignoble birds.

[Moonlight Graham]

the judicial, executive, and legislative branches of government are to remain distinct?

What is it about the separation of the three branches that MP's don't seem to get?

The executive and legislature are hardly separate at all. Our PM is part of the legislature, and is the most powerful player in the legislature at that. The cabinet is also in the legislature. The Crown is also involved with the legislature since the GG must give Royal Assent to any potential legislation.

[myata]

Let's recall how Harper's folks were all over at the times of Gomery inquiry. But of course it's not what opposition should be doing at the times of Conservatives own troubles. The standards: transparency, coalition with the "devil", fixed election dates, etc, they are there only for the others.

[Wilber]

Considering the allegations, Harper had no choice but to turn it over to the police and remove her from Cabinet. These are criminal accusations and should remain a police matter until they are either cleared up or charges are laid. I do wonder about her expulsion from caucus however.

[scorpio]

No proof ,no hearing of facts in a court of law, just unsubstantiated rumour.

Rumour? Yep that's why he kicked her ass out of cabinet and the caucus. LOL

[Muddy]

Rumour? Yep that's why he kicked her ass out of cabinet and the caucus. LOL

Are you saying Harper was right in kicking her out? Or did he do it to give police more access to investigate? The more I hear about the circumstances the less I believe she was involved in something shady.Good comment in the National Post today. Good read. I don`t know if she is guilty of anything but she has had a bad time lately with miscarriages and her Mother in a bad way, hence the temper tantrum at the PEI airport,although inappropriate might be taken into account. If she and or Jaffer are guilty of a serious crime I think shame on the them ,but right now it is to soon to tell now that it is an RCMP investigation. Never the less her career in politics is finished.

[capricorn]

The more I hear about the circumstances the less I believe she was involved in something shady.

IMO, the key to the whole thing is who hired the snoop. PI Snowdy was not hired by the Liberals otherwise they would not have turned down information he offered them. Next, he then went to the Conservatives. They did not hire him otherwise Snowdy would have gone to them first. My suspicion is that Snowdy's client is someone who wanted to undercut, even wipe out, Jaffer, Glemaud and perhaps Gilliani, from getting a potentially lucrative green technology business off the ground. The snoop's been on the case for 19 months. Whoever hired him has plenty of dough to pay his fees over such a long period of time.

This is not over.

[Born Free]

Are you saying Harper was right in kicking her out? Or did he do it to give police more access to investigate? The more I hear about the circumstances the less I believe she was involved in something shady.Good comment in the National Post today. Good read. I don`t know if she is guilty of anything but she has had a bad time lately with miscarriages and her Mother in a bad way, hence the temper tantrum at the PEI airport,although inappropriate might be taken into account. If she and or Jaffer are guilty of a serious crime I think shame on the them ,but right now it is to soon to tell now that it is an RCMP investigation. Never the less her career in politics is finished.

If there are formal allegations made against a Cabinet Minister, the Minister should step down without having to be asked. At least until such time if the investigation ends up clearing the minister. You cant have a minister in office with a cloud over their head (so to speak).

[Oleg Bach]

There are bad ass hard core suppresive legalists who say "There are only the convicted and yet to be convicted"...It is astounding that that posion called cocaine has worked it's way up to the top of the food chain..just goes to show you that the stupid now rule the roost..and the best are driven on to the ash heap of failure and obscurity.

[scribblet]

It seems that Guergis has been found guilty by the court of public opinion based on (mainly) one newspaper's unethical reporting of allegations, supposition and a huge smear job. They would make the enquirer proud -

Too bad only Jack Layton is asking more pertinent questions that more directly affect our lives: Quebec's challenge to medicare and nuclear policy, guess it's not sexy enough for today's media, or maybe they are not interested in reporting anything factual !

[Smallc]

It seems that Guergis has been found guilty by the court of public opinion based on (mainly) one newspaper's unethical reporting of allegations, supposition and a huge smear job. They would make the enquirer proud -

So what are newspapers supposed to report? First, we have people criticizing that the media doesn't dive deep enough, and now, when they dive deep, they're unethical...sheesh. Also, it wasn't just the Star, the Globe and Mail has extensively covered the story.

[Born Free]

It seems that Guergis has been found guilty by the court of public opinion based on (mainly) one newspaper's unethical reporting of allegations, supposition and a huge smear job. They would make the enquirer proud -

Which newspaper and please specify what was unethical in the reporting.

[Machjo]

Too bad only Jack Layton is asking more pertinent questions that more directly affect our lives: Quebec's challenge to medicare and nuclear policy, guess it's not sexy enough for today's media, or maybe they are not interested in reporting anything factual !

Really. I haven't noticed. But if true, then too bad he's not in my riding. I'm not saying I'd vote for him necessarily, but if he'd actually understood that the Guergis Affair is a judicial matter and simply continued doing his job as a legislator, then certainly that would at least raise my respect for him.

[Muddy]

Will the hang em high crowd here who have found this, now, infamous couple guilty repent if the charges are proven false? Will Harper reinstate this gal back into cabinet if the charges are proven false? I have a sneaky feeling that all the sins may not be as clear cut as we have been led to believe.

[Smallc]

Will the hang em high crowd here who have found this, now, infamous couple guilty repent if the charges are proven false?

I haven't tried to hang anyone high, but certainly.

Will Harper reinstate this gal back into cabinet if the charges are proven false?

I certainly hope not. The useless minister of useless portfolio (there are a few more of those). The portfolio is fine where it is, as part of another minister's responsibility.

I have a sneaky feeling that all the sins may not be as clear cut as we have been led to believe.

I don't think anyone's been suggesting that things are clear cut.

[scribblet]

They won't repent because they won't believe it. They'll try to spin that the Tories somehow fixed it

[scribblet]

Which newspaper and please specify what was unethical in the reporting.

Naming a paper would not be a wise thing to do, but I'm sure you have a good idea. The other papers have been a bit more balanced, it's the one paper that has published mainly allegations, rumours, he said she said, anonymous sources but not one actual fact. The alleged photos on a camera are now reported by the CBC as, well maybe I have them... hmmmm

[Smallc]

Naming a paper would not be a wise thing to do, but I'm sure you have a good idea. The other papers have been a bit more balanced, it's the one paper that has published mainly allegations, rumours, he said she said, anonymous sources but not one actual fact.

So newspapers should ignore all allegations that aren't completely supported with facts? There's never be a story about anything criminal.

[scribblet]

Newspapers should report facts and actual news, there's a difference between good reporting and a smear campaign based on rabbid innuendo.

[Born Free]

Naming a paper would not be a wise thing to do, but I'm sure you have a good idea. The other papers have been a bit more balanced, it's the one paper that has published mainly allegations, rumours, he said she said, anonymous sources but not one actual fact. The alleged photos on a camera are now reported by the CBC as, well maybe I have them... hmmmm

Aw c'mon. Tell us what paper you think is unethical and tell us exactly what was unethical in its reporting. Afterall, you wouldnt want to be accused of unethical and unbalanced statements yourself.

[Born Free]

Newspapers should report facts and actual news, there's a difference between good reporting and a smear campaign based on rabbid innuendo.

Innuendo is an Italian suppository...

[Muddy]

Newspapers should report facts and actual news, there's a difference between good reporting and a smear campaign based on rabbid innuendo.

Reporting should be based on facts and not show prejudice by innuendo. But commentary is a different matter. A good columnist should articulate some of their own speculation for their readers. A good newspaper should try and have differing views from different columnists that will challenge their own papers fellow columnists and editorials.

But head lines should be truthful as possible ,because some folks never read past the head line.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Muddy

[scribblet]

There's an interesting piece this morning. Considering how this all came about, I think the media reporting, at least from one particular source has been pretty disgusting. As a cousin said "She's already paid the piper and she's not been convicted or charged with anything," he said Friday during an emotional interview.

excerpted:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/04/18/derrick-snowdy-interview.html

Conversation with ethics office

'I said to him I had made no allegations against the member. He asked if I had spoken with the prime minister's chief of staff. I said no.'—Derrick Snowdy

He said they discussed allegations against Gillani, an occasion when Jaffer and Guergis apparently dined with Gillani, and a gesture Gillani apparently made, holding up his cellphone, implying he had potentially incriminating photographic evidence of the former power couple.

At 4 p.m. ET that Friday, April 9, Snowdy said he returned a phone call from the ethics commissioner's office. In a brief conversation, the employee quoted from a letter from the prime minister's chief of staff saying Snowdy was making allegations against a member of the house.

"I said to him I had made no allegations against the member. He asked if I had spoken with the prime minister's chief of staff. I said no. Did I make any allegations against the member? I said no.

"And he then stated to me, 'Well, it doesn't seem to me that we have a complaint here. Thank you very much.' Hung up the phone," said Snowdy.